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DM to answer your question.
As a GM (this applies to all flavours of human) Don't be a jerk... Be excellent to one another. Talk to your players, set your violence/adult concept meter to not being an ass hat. Find out what they expect of you by asking them, let them know what you like/want in a game before opening any books.
As a player the same as the above.
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At the PFS table say ... I don't tolerate the use of the words Gay, Retard, Spaz, poof, Racial slurs or girl being being used as an insult at this table. Chatting up every NPC that moves is wasting the other players time, if there is a romantic encounter I cut to the fireplace.
There is no violence against female PCs just because the PC is female, no threats of sexual assault will be made by my NPCs. Any PCs engaging in sexual threats against other PCs or NPCs will get booted.
We are here for a fun time not a traumatic time.
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I can understand why people dislike the term for "white, male privilege". To those that have had a hard life (look above for examples), it feels like someone is throwing your hardships and accomplishments over adversity back in their face, as if they only got to where they were because they were white and male and not because of their training, hard work ethic, and talent. I know I'd feel furious if someone told me I only got where I was because of affirmative action and not from my skills or work ethic.
I agree completely to everything you've said, 8th. I wouldn't stand for that stuff either. Talking to your players before a game is extremely important. I had one player that was not comfortable with anything involving children because he was a father. While the mother was okay with it, he was not. So I removed that part of my planned game and instead had the evil cult concentrate on kidnapping the elderly. After all their brains have a lot more experience for certain squid faced monsters to dine on and learn from. It was like fine aged cheese to them, and it even brought in a new way to bring them all together as PC's, as their old teacher disappeared.
It was still certainly quite horrific, the tone very dark. But it was something that people enjoyed.
Stuff like this should be basic DMing and Player, and heck, individual skills as well.
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I can understand why people dislike the term for "white, male privilege". To those that have had a hard life (look above for examples), it feels like someone is throwing your hardships and accomplishments over adversity back in their face, as if they only got to where they were because they were white and male and not because of their training, hard work ethic, and talent. I know I'd feel furious if someone told me I only got where I was because of affirmative action and not from my skills or work ethic.
Actually, this has to be the most insightful comment I have read on this thread so far.
The best comment I've ever seen on this issue came from a study on upper body strength. It is obvious that there are physical differences between men and women, sure, and we often say "men are stronger than women".
I'm never going to assume physical strength based on gender. I'm pretty sure my SO could bench press me.
I can understand why people dislike the term for "white, male privilege". To those that have had a hard life (look above for examples), it feels like someone is throwing your hardships and accomplishments over adversity back in their face, as if they only got to where they were because they were white and male and not because of their training, hard work ethic, and talent. I know I'd feel furious if someone told me I only got where I was because of affirmative action and not from my skills or work ethic.Actually, this has to be the most insightful comment I have read on this thread so far.
Agreed.
I aknowledge WMP it exists there are things in life that are far easier for me. There are areas that are difficult for me....
I think do WMP is overused, it used to shut conversations down and it is alienating because its perceived as an attack.
As I mentioned before I was raised by a radical feminist who left me with some significant baggage to sort out, shame over being born my gender, disrespecting my father and grandfather based on their gender... All of it was unintentional and my mother was shocked when we talked about what messages I took from her. It wasn't until I was 30 before I worked out what wonderful wise person my father was.
Agreed.I can understand why people dislike the term for "white, male privilege". To those that have had a hard life (look above for examples), it feels like someone is throwing your hardships and accomplishments over adversity back in their face, as if they only got to where they were because they were white and male and not because of their training, hard work ethic, and talent. I know I'd feel furious if someone told me I only got where I was because of affirmative action and not from my skills or work ethic.Actually, this has to be the most insightful comment I have read on this thread so far.
Occasionally I have lapses of insight when I'm not sober.
Personally, I like the interview and I can honestly relate to Jessica on a lot of levels. I recall an incident when I was younger and had a short temper and a large chip on my shoulder. I was 12 and I was getting into 3rd edition. I went to the local gaming store to pick up my copy of the Players Handbook and the DMG. I remember reading through it at the store when someone from the older crowd remarked towards me, saying he was surprised that I could read the book. Confused, I asked why. He was surprised an "illegal immigrant" could read English and do the math involved with DnD. In retrospect, of course, I could have handled it with more grace and wit instead of my fists. But I won't forget that incident nor some others I dealt with after that, because it's helped me to show kindness I wasn't shown to people in my gaming group. No point in ostracizing anyone because of race, gender, sexual orientation, or whatnot from a gaming group.
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Search me DM; it's almost as everyone responding to the discussion of the article with, "But I'm white and male, and my life sucks!" are embodying the exact bias that the interview talks about.
I'm enjoying the conversation, but in a lot of ways it's the Kotaku male privilege thread all over again.
I really think it's always the same conversation. We could swap the adjectives and with very few changes (chiefly correlated with someone ending up on the wrong side of the prevailing social dynamic) and play it out exactly the same way with the same participants.
I humbly suggest this be called Samnell's Grand Unified Theory of Social Justice Conversations.
Occasionally I have lapses of insight when I'm not sober.
Personally, I like the interview and I can honestly relate to Jessica on a lot of levels. I recall an incident when I was younger and had a short temper and a large chip on my shoulder. I was 12 and I was getting into 3rd edition. I went to the local gaming store to pick up my copy of the Players Handbook and the DMG. I remember reading through it at the store when someone from the older crowd remarked towards me, saying he was surprised that I could read the book. Confused, I asked why. He was surprised an "illegal immigrant" could read English and do the math involved with DnD. In retrospect, of course, I could have handled it with more grace and wit instead of my fists. But I won't forget that incident nor some others I dealt with after that, because it's helped me to show kindness I wasn't shown to people in my gaming group. No point in ostracizing anyone because of race, gender, sexual orientation, or whatnot from a gaming group.
What an idiot. I probably would of hit him if I was in your shoes as well. As angry as that makes me, it also makes me sad. His life must be so limited if that is what he honestly believes about certain people. He must take tons of other falsehoods to be the absolute truth. How many people that might of been friends has he run off with that attitude?
Of coursem,he's still an idiot for believing that however.
Let me try to get back on topic with a few points.
1) Men and women (as groups) have different ideas of what is appropriate.
2) Most gamers are male.
3) Even for males gamers tend to have a fairly low bar for crass humor.
4) This is not inherently wrong. Behavior is situational. Running around drunk in a toga is probably not appreciated at the new york philharmonic. Its pretty much expected in a frat house. This isn't male privilege its majority privilege: the same way every other group decides whats an appropriate way to act therein
While each table is its own microcosm of culture, there do tend to be identifiable trends compared to other hobbies. The culture tends to reflect the players, so it should be no surprise that the culture around most gaming tables is more than a little male oriented. The group needs to adjust a bit to the individuals, but the individuals have to adjust to the group as well.
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Confused, I asked why. He was surprised an "illegal immigrant" could read English and do the math involved with DnD. In retrospect, of course, I could have handled it with more grace and wit instead of my fists.
What, no giant metal d20's available?
Confused, I asked why. He was surprised an "illegal immigrant" could read English and do the math involved with DnD. In retrospect, of course, I could have handled it with more grace and wit instead of my fists.What, no giant metal d20's available?
Alas I was twelve and my allowance after taxes* probably wouldn't have been enough to get some. Plus I didn't realize they made metal d20s till college :)
* To get me prepared for the real world, my dad gave me an allowance for doing work around the house. But he'd take "taxes" out and keep track, giving me it back every March.
I have many more stories of this nature, well into my college years. But admittedly, I have little else to real contribute into this thread except "If someone tells you that you can't play DnD because of your race, gender, or whatever, don't bunch them in the face... and certainly don't make them eat your boogers. That's just gross ;)"
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I'm really not interested in arguing about whether men are on the receiving end of sexism outside of the game industry. As I noted in my post, I think there are ways that our society is sexist against men.
But you know what isn't sexist against men? The game industry. I'm hard-pressed to think of an industry that caters more to straight men. It's enthusiastically, defiantly, and often militantly misogynistic. Which is what this thread is about. I did an interview about what it's like to be a woman in the game industry, which currently is an experience that includes, for most of us (at least most of us who have worked at large game companies): harassment, dismissal, gender policing, outright objectification, and so on. And the person who started this thread asked how to make women feel more comfortable in game environments.
That is what this thread is about. If you want to talk about how hard white men have it, go somewhere else and do it, because you are way off topic.
And many of you are helping me win Derailment Bingo. I hate winning Derailment Bingo.
Search me DM; it's almost as everyone responding to the discussion of the article with, "But I'm white and male, and my life sucks!" are embodying the exact bias that the interview talks about.
I'm enjoying the conversation, but in a lot of ways it's the Kotaku male privilege thread all over again.
I really think it's always the same conversation. We could swap the adjectives and with very few changes (chiefly correlated with someone ending up on the wrong side of the prevailing social dynamic) and play it out exactly the same way with the same participants.
I humbly suggest this be called Samnell's Grand Unified Theory of Social Justice Conversations.
With the same participants? I don't understand. Is it being implied that because I don't believe that white straight male privilege exists that women, people of limited means, those who are disabled or others are never disadvantaged?
I'm not sure where you might of gotten that from. The reality is it's about power, and flaunting that power. Just because I am a straight white male does not keep my manager from flaunting his "Manager Privilege" on me to do terrible jobs that he himself is responsible for and then takes the credit for. Sure I could try to speak up, but he has power and his word carries more weight than mine. He has a relationship with the store manager. Social conventions dictate that a young male should grin and bear it "pay your dues" is the term I've heard more than once. He has power over me.
The same thing happens to people all around the world. When people accumulate power most are unworthy of exercising it and abuse it in a variety of manners. People of all races, colors and creeds treat people they have power over poorly all through world history. It's a great frailty of ours. Women are perceived, and often trained by societal norms to be meek. So often a man who is insensitive to such things feels like he can flaunt his power over them and feel superior and generally think he can get away with it because a woman doesn't feel like she will get support if she speaks out against it or has been conditioned not to. He had power in the workplace environment over her.
We both don't have the power in the situation we are in. I understand the power mechanic very, very well and sympathize. What does not help is launching labels in our direction while those who have power accumulate more while we squabble and point fingers over past transgresses.
In both cases we are restrained and limited by the power conventions that exist in our workplace. Jessica Price was able to leave that work situation and find one with Paizo that is a tolerant, understanding work environment, which is totally awesome for her. I hope she goes on to do some great work for them.
The reality is that our situations come from individuals who think treating other people as lesser is okay. Being demeaning or cheating them is okay. The problem is that the experience of power being lorded over you tends to turn you into a person who enjoys lording powers over others.
We have to see it for what it is. A problem of individuals often perpetuating what they have experienced in their life. Not of racial groups or genders or classes, but of individuals.
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Might be best for some of us posters to back away from the thread for a bit. Let things cool off and settle for a bit before jumping back in.
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I'm really not interested in arguing about whether men are on the receiving end of sexism outside of the game industry. As I noted in my post, I think there are ways that our society is sexist against men.
But you know what isn't sexist against men? The game industry. I'm hard-pressed to think of an industry that caters more to straight men. It's enthusiastically, defiantly, and often militantly misogynistic. Which is what this thread is about. I did an interview about what it's like to be a woman in the game industry, which currently is an experience that includes, for most of us (at least most of us who have worked at large game companies): harassment, dismissal, gender policing, outright objectification, and so on. And the person who started this thread asked how to make women feel more comfortable in game environments.
That is what this thread is about. If you want to talk about how hard white men have it, go somewhere else and do it, because you are way off topic.
And many of you are helping me win Derailment Bingo. I hate winning Derailment Bingo.
I apologise for any derailment I have caused.
All I can say about making women feel comfortable at the table is to ask them what they want, to listen to what they say and to act on it. To treat them how I would like to be treated.
I'm really not interested in arguing about whether men are on the receiving end of sexism outside of the game industry. As I noted in my post, I think there are ways that our society is sexist against men.
But you know what isn't sexist against men? The game industry. I'm hard-pressed to think of an industry that caters more to straight men. It's enthusiastically, defiantly, and often militantly misogynistic. Which is what this thread is about. I did an interview about what it's like to be a woman in the game industry, which currently is an experience that includes, for most of us (at least most of us who have worked at large game companies): harassment, dismissal, gender policing, outright objectification, and so on. And the person who started this thread asked how to make women feel more comfortable in game environments.
That is what this thread is about. If you want to talk about how hard white men have it, go somewhere else and do it, because you are way off topic.
And many of you are helping me win Derailment Bingo. I hate winning Derailment Bingo.
I apologise for any derailment I have caused.
All I can say about making women feel comfortable at the table is to ask them what they want, to listen to what they say and to act on it. To treat them how I would like to be treated.
It is pretty simple. It is called the golden rule for a reason. Being a decent human being and talking anything over that might be unusual or potentially disturbing before it comes up. Treating PC's equally, etc.
I've gone to groups were there were things like slurs and whatnot being cast around casually and have just left after the first session. I've been in extremely uncomfortable situations involving pressure to consume alcohol, etc, at the gaming table. Generally these groups often chased off a lot of people and I heard horror stories from others after the fact. That stuff turns me off as a player big time, and as a GM with players and I've been honest with them about why I stopped playing with them.
Did it change their gaming habits and outlook on life and other people? Probably not. But there isn't much more I can do.
Might be best for some of us posters to back away from the thread for a bit. Let things cool off and settle for a bit before jumping back in.
Appealing for cooler heads, on the Internet? Tsk-tsk. Might as well be yelling at the sun not to rise, or the rain to not fall!
Considering that our community is mostly *checks fb "Fans of Paizo" group* of 30-40yrd old white males from the USA, I'm actually surprised this thread didn't go totally "black women stole our jobs and forced us to live in ma's basement again" so far. Good guys Americans! ;-)
I can only give you a 1/10 for the bag. That's the best I can do.
There's a difference between putting creepy or downright vile elements into your campaign - my current campaign had an instance of some truly abhorrent acts - and what I'm railing against. I do understand what you're getting at though, that some juvenile twirps think "adult themes" means acting like a misogynist jerk toward female players. On the other hand I think a lot of them use it as an excuse to act like jerks.I mean what kind of jackass would even do this? It just seems to me that so much of the stuff described in this thread goes beyond simple ignorance of privilege and into the realm of full-blown deliberate misogyny.I think some people throw creepy stuff into their campaigns to emphasize that they're playing a game for adults and "this ain't your mamma's D&D!!1!".
When you explain why that's really nasty, it's somehow okay.
When I did the same in a past thread, I got insulted as being "an overly squeamish party crasher". What gives?!
I'll admit, a lot of this advice, especially when it comes to sex and what not blows my mind. Is the default state that sex and sexuality are presented in such a juvenile and/or misongynistic fashion that it needs to be verboten at many tables? Why would anyone, man or woman, game with people so immature that the things Sean and the others are giving as 'advice' even need to be stated to begin with?
I'm pretty sure the context of that quote means: Don't mind-control her character as a vehicle to introduce sex into the game.I mean what kind of jackass would even do this? It just seems to me that so much of the stuff described in this thread goes beyond simple ignorance of privilege and into the realm of full-blown deliberate misogyny.Disturbingly enough, that thing's a fetish / turn-on for some people.
Just stating a random fact. However, I am as disgusted as you are by that.
Whatever two (or more) consenting adults decide to do is none of my concern. Bringing it to the gaming table with people you haven't explicitly cleared it with beforehand? Not okay.
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This is a potentially fascinating thread that keeps getting derailed by guys complaining that "men have it hard TOO!"
Guys: that's not what this thread is about. Please, please stop. I'm really interested in what Ms. Price has to say, and in the handful of commenters who actually want to engage with her. There aren't enough women in this industry -- I think we can all agree on that, right? So when a thoughtul, articulate woman shows up and starts writing thoughtful, articulate, insightful material on her experiences, complete with some analysis and concrete suggestions for improving, things, I'd really like to hear more. Not another round of "but I'm a white guy, and my life is HARD!" That, I can get anywhere on the internet.
Please. Either engage with her, or go away and start another thread.
Doug M.
Douglas. Part of the problem is that discussions are a give and take. When you claim a person has a privilege that they can not see or detect, and therefor can not argue that they do not possess it becomes impossible to have a discussion.
Instead it usually devolves into anger and name calling. It's not "I'm a white guy and my life is hard." so much is "all of our lives are hard" and how can we make them better. Painting one group with a broad brush alienates and angers many of them. What I and others are trying to say is "Yes, we understand, and we agree. But you're not the only victim of the current power structure." Everybody has been a victim of a person in power, or of society's expectations or thoughts of them in one way or another.
The reason why it upsets me is that we should be allies in this, not enemies. But people toss around buzzwords and labels without a care, and then wonder why they get blowback on the issue. There are some that might disagree on the principle of the issue, but needlessly swelling their ranks by being unnecessarily confrontational only makes it worse.
My life isn't hard. Please stop painting me with a broad brush, it alienates me.
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But you know what isn't sexist against men? The game industry. I'm hard-pressed to think of an industry that caters more to straight men. It's enthusiastically, defiantly, and often militantly misogynistic.
I find that curious given the large number of gay guys (and gals, in fairness!) I have encountered in the hobby vs in the other hobbies in which I participate. Indeed on these very forums is a robust thread dedicated to ths very issue which suggests to me that it's not a 'regional' thing either.
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This is a potentially fascinating thread that keeps getting derailed by guys complaining that "men have it hard TOO!"
Guys: that's not what this thread is about. Please, please stop. I'm really interested in what Ms. Price has to say, and in the handful of commenters who actually want to engage with her.
Perhaps you haven't read the thread terribly well or you'd note that their points are very much on topic - Please read.
It's very much something put out there, and people should be allowed to make comment on that, unless of course, you feel that their feelings are simply not valid because you don't share them and would deny those people a right of reply and simply gaslight them into silence?
There is bias against both genders nowadays.
Whoever claims we've achieved equality is a liar.
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I'm a white guy with disability issues (one knee is a ruined mess, my back is in pieces, damage in shoulder, neck and wrist on my left side makes it an issue doing stuff, and I'm now developing arthritis in some of my still working joints) but I have to acknowledge that that I've still got a lot of advantages just because I'm pale and got a dong.
Here's a fun factoid for you - even though the vast majority of domestic assault charges are men attacking women, you are statistically more likely to be arrested if you're a woman attacking a man - even if that attack was in self defence, and children were involved. Worse? The it's likely to be the women's first domestic assault charge, where as the man will almost always have multiple reports against him before he's charged.
Here is a article from the Guardian talking about it, although it is a bit out of date.
Gentleman, we have nothing comparable. We have no idea what it's like to exist in a system stacked against us - even those of us with something like disabilities. On those occasions when we do enter somewhere with a primarily female power structure that might make us uncomfortable we have the option to leave, either temporarily to get a respite (something much harder for a women to do) or got back to the 'norm' where guys are in charge permanently.
I got into an argument over at a forum I moderate at, The Horror is Alive, about some of the images for 'unused alternative costumes' for the female characters in Resident Evil 6. I should point out that one of the costumes that got used was a character's school girl outfit from when she was eight...literally, the same outfit now stretched over her adult form - and the ones they cut are far worse, including the same character wearing nothing but biohazard tape. A lot of my fellows there thought they were awesome, and couldn't understand why I was so disgusted by them. 'It's just a game' got thrown around a lot.
And I thought - yeah, it's just a game I never want my daughters to see, if that' how they think a strong, interesting female character is meant to dress.' I also wondered how many women take one look at stuff like that and never touch a game, when they'd enjoy them if they weren't so put off by the barely contained, 'realistically' bouncing Triple D bosoms constantly presented. And how much more money Capcom might make if they decided that they shouldn't have a crotch-less suit on Jill Valentine in RE 5 (no, I am not joking - her model has since been patched, but a friend of mine, Dot50Cal as he's known online, made sure it's all documented because we couldn't believe anyone would be that dumb) and simply made games more women friendly.
There is hope, though. Bungie's Zero Tolerance - see here - shows full well that the gaming community won't collapse if someone doesn't yell at female players to go get him a sandwhich (despite the beliefs of that idiot from the Tekken Vs Street Fighter Fiasco) and that gaming companies can force a change without worrying about there wallets - a lot of male gamers don't like that crap anyway (the only online games I play are either with friends or co-operative types so no one starts screaming if someone else is better...most of the time) and I suspect most of the people who staunchly support the right of guys to yell dumb insults would, if forced to choose, rather play the game like a sensible adult than not play at all.
Here is a article from the Guardian talking about it, although it is a bit out of date.
Gentleman, we have nothing comparable
That's terrible dude. It is the UK, but I wouldn't doubt the same thing goes down in America. But then you are looking at cops not making the arrest that needs to be made. I've experienced poor policework, a generally uncaring attitude about a person willing to employ a loaded firearm in the commission of a robbery. Some police may be exemplary, but my experiences with them have all been negative.
My mother was a victim of abuse by my earlier aforementioned father. It took a lot of convincing from me and her friends to finally leave him. The police were never alerted because she didn't want them to be, and was embarrassed for what she was going through. Thought it was necessary to have a stable family for me and my siblings. I didn't experience it, but I did see it. Some friends and family members, including her own siblings (my uncles and aunts) didn't want to help her get out. Saying it wasn't their business, nor ours to 'get involved'.
I only saw my mom getting hit and manhandled by my dad, he never went after me. And how people who were 'friends' didn't do anything to help her. I wasn't the victim in that situation, but I did see it and experience it and saw how most people turned away. In that situation she felt like she had no power, and it turned out for good reason and it took a lot of convincing to show her that it wasn't true, and she could leave.
That being said, the experiences of say a young man who is sexually or physically abused by a parent or other adult, saying that it isn't comparable is a bit of a stretch to me. Is it as common? Probably not. But it's still just as heinous.
A lot of my fellows there thought they were awesome, and couldn't understand why I was so disgusted by them. 'It's just a game' got thrown around a...
This, I couldn't agree more on about the outfits and such. However this article is a little sparse about some things. I always get leery of limiting the expression of thought and ideas, even when the majority considers them wrong. It seems to imply a lifetime ban for a sexist comment. I'm not sure how that serves anybody. Are there lifetime bans for racial slurs, and threats, and other such language?
It just seems like a nightmare to enforce. And perhaps even counter-productive. If anything a lifetime ban should be after several offenses. The first such comment should require completing some sort of sensitivity course via a website or something. A general "don't be an idiot to other people" course. Then the second a thirty day ban, and then a lifetime ban or something.
Still. The idea of a company censoring language...what happens if an ISP decides to do that?
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That being said, the experiences of say a young man who is sexually or physically abused by a parent or other adult, saying that it isn't comparable is a bit of a stretch to me. Is it as common? Probably not. But it's still just as heinous.
Yeah, that's just as hideous as when it happens to a women. My point wasn't that abuse to women is worse, though, and I'm sorry for the confusion - abuse to either gender, especially at a young age, is worthy of Barbarian style rage.
The point I was attempting to make is that there is still a level of unfairness built into the system. A woman has to commit a crime, once, in self defence to be arrested - a man has to do the same thing, in a drunken rage, repeatedly before he's arrested.
We have nothing comparable to the law literally being against us.
Equally bad, in many cases, social opinion is against women. A woman who cheats is much more likely to be shamed than a man. A women who wants a divorce, especially in religious families, is more likely to be shunned. A woman who sleeps with multiple partners is a slut, worthy of condemnation - a man who does it is a stud, worthy of respect. And I've already talked about victim blaming in rape.
And the same goes for games. If a women expresses her opinion, there's a dozen reasons to shut her down - she's on her rag, she's over sensitive, she doesn't get gaming - but if a man expresses an opinion, there's basically one - he's wrong. er.