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The rating may not be overt when published, but it's pretty clear in the open call guidelines that stuff for PFS should be PG13 at most.
Good point. That said, some PFS scenarios still slip through the cracks.
My suggestion seems to have been eaten. The nWoD's adventures have a small note on the front cover that essentually gives a quick glance at what sorts of challenges the adventure focuses on. In that system, ability scores are broken into three catagories (Physical, Social, and Mental) and each adventure has a 1-5 rating showing how important those catagories are for that specific adventure.
I would like to see Paizo do something along those lines, particularly with something like PFS scenarios, and say on the front cover, for examlpe, if the scenario focuses a lot on RPing, Skill Checks, Tactics, Combat, or other things (maybe a 1-5 rating that could be placed near the Level Tiers), and also include a small line about mature content.
Intersting to see some publishers have considered this and taken action.
As to PC on PC rape being PvP, this is true. That doesn't address the issue of players raping NPC's in a gratuitous, totally non plot advancing way, when they are told they can't actually rape anyone's character. I don't want to play at that table, and no amount of game mechanics is going to fix that for me.
I agree: in-game bad behavior falls outsite the scope of a rating system. It falls under a more general guideline.
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Geek and Sundry is organizing some stuff for March 30th. Not exactly "mainstream", but a little bit of a broader 'geek' audience.
Linky has been posted to my Facebook page.
HerosBackpack thank you for that boundaries article, it´s great.
Paizo could consider working out something similar and putting it into players guides. GM guides too of course, but players guide is a more common place. One might think stuff like that is common sense, but it seems common sense is not a universal trait of human beings.
There to add, places exist in this world where saying "Boys will be boys," "you can't blame a guy for trying," indicates something negative. Transporting a message like there were some or one guy who can´t reason but sticks to low-end male cliche bad behaviour or had good intentions perhaps but failed cruelly and probably did some damage. Which does not say there will be no punishment, only you can´t follow the reasons or logix which lead there.
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I want to go off topic for a moment and thank all of the constructive posters who have contributed to this thread, and all of the women of our community here for sharing their stories and insights.
I admit, I'm probably really dumb when it comes to this topic, but I want to be an ally, and I want to become better equipped and educated to join into conversations like this and help us find some middle ground of equality. I really appreciate people like Jessica and others for being smarter than me and really giving me some thoughts to chew on, that maybe I can get more involved against sexism, misogyny, and ignorance, and become better armed to help.
I've taken Neil's lead and posted about this on facebook. I have a lot of female friends, many who game, and hopefully the conversation on my wall can bear some helpful fruit.
I wouldn't suggest casually dismissing the idea of producing "girl oriented" products. Especially cute things. It has been shown to work in the past for other areas that were very dominated by male customers.
As to PC on PC rape being PvP, this is true. That doesn't address the issue of players raping NPC's in a gratuitous, totally non plot advancing way, when they are told they can't actually rape anyone's character. I don't want to play at that table, and no amount of game mechanics is going to fix that for me.
And neither does anyone else, which is why I suppose I have seen it precisely 0 times, ever. Nor has anyone I have ever met claim it has happened to them, only ever nebulous tales that start "This one time, at a games con, apparently..." and only ever from people on the internet.
So thats hundreds of tables just for me, and hundreds more for my friends, all of us with two to three decades of gaming and going to games conventions, and not one incidence of this happening.
Pretty good odds then of it not happening.
Reckon that a games cons would have to be one of the safest places for a person to hang out at; anyone have the stats on assaults and other criminal activities at games conventions? Anyone have a news article on someone shanking someone else over a dice dispute?
Games cons are a pretty safe space, I would suggest that the reasons some women might not like them are very much related to the 'surrounds and their downsides'. On that note not every male likes them either.
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I find most "woman-oriented" products to be incredibly insulting.
Toys for little girls are one thing* - but I do not need pink power tools or special pens for women or anything else that rather clumsily attempts to market to my gender by reducing my sum total of interests to the colour pink, cute things, no big words, raising children and cooking.
I'm a woman and an adult. I do not need to be treated like a poor weak child who needs to have things sanitised and purified and "made okay" for my gender before I become interested in them.
Of course, removing some of the heterosexual male gaze stuff would probably help.
* Children develop an incredibly strong concept of "gender" from a very young age, largely because they are inundated with it from the moment they are born (or even before, according to some theories). It's one of the first social groupings they can identify with and children often do so very strongly. They know from an incredibly young age what is "male" and what is "female" - what is for them, and what is not for them. Thus, little girls are likely to be attracted to pink lego because they have had pink things marketed to in every other aspect of their lives and that simple thing makes it okay for them to be interested in. At least, that's how I interpret the lego thing.
If we (as a society) didn't socialise our children so much into such rigid (and utterly stupid) constructions of gender (i.e. pink = female, blue = male; girls get dolls and boys get trucks, etc.) then I think that little girls would enjoy lego just as much as little boys do.
Right on Alice!
The pink power-tools and toolkits just make me eyeroll. I also noticed that they are almost always of a cheap build which goes that extra step to suggest that not only are they 'gimmicky', but they expect the woman (and that's who they expect to be using it) to only be doing some pretty twee light duty stuff.
Hard-core pink nail gun or chainsaw? Unlikely.
I find most "woman-oriented" products to be incredibly insulting.
Toys for little girls are one thing* - but I do not need pink power tools or special pens for women or anything else that rather clumsily attempts to market to my gender by reducing my sum total of interests to the colour pink, cute things, no big words, raising children and cooking.
I'm a woman and an adult. I do not need to be treated like a poor weak child who needs to have things sanitised and purified and "made okay" for my gender before I become interested in them.
Of course, removing some of the heterosexual male gaze stuff would probably help.
* Children develop an incredibly strong concept of "gender" from a very young age, largely because they are inundated with it from the moment they are born (or even before, according to some theories). It's one of the first social groupings they can identify with and children often do so very strongly. They know from an incredibly young age what is "male" and what is "female" - what is for them, and what is not for them. Thus, little girls are likely to be attracted to pink lego because they have had pink things marketed to in every other aspect of their lives and that simple thing makes it okay for them to be interested in. At least, that's how I interpret the lego thing.
If we (as a society) didn't socialise our children so much into such rigid (and utterly stupid) constructions of gender (i.e. pink = female, blue = male; girls get dolls and boys get trucks, etc.) then I think that little girls would enjoy lego just as much as little boys do.
I understand. I also don't see why lego should have to put out pink cutesy crap for girls to play with it, there were female characters in other sets, or their gender was ambiguous. But some women and girls feel differently than you and I. The only way they are going to get interested is with some pink cutesy crap.
Now if we really are interested in getting those particular women/girls' feet into the gaming door, females that would never ever try it otherwise, then we might need to hold our nose and do it.
Wasn't that kind of the point of the Bella Sara. I guess someone would have to ask Sebastian.
As for the whole changing society's socializing processes, well what is that saying. If "if"s and "buts" were candies and nuts, we'd all have a merry christmas. i.e. It isn't changing soon, so we better deal with what we got to work with.
I think that you are going to turn away as many women as you would potentially gain with these kinds of gimmicks, is all I'm sayin'.
+1.
I look at what the teen girls are doing, and not a lot of it is cutesy pink stuff, they seem to grow out of that pretty quick. The only reason they keep some of the cutesy stuff appears to be as an ironic giggle.
Well, ok, that's an unintended positive I'm sure - pretty funny too :p
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Right on Alice!
The pink power-tools and toolkits just make me eyeroll. I also noticed that they are almost always of a cheap build which goes that extra step to suggest that not only are they 'gimmicky', but they expect the woman (and that's who they expect to be using it) to only be doing some pretty twee light duty stuff.
Hard-core pink nail gun or chainsaw? Unlikely.
Pink guns
As to PC on PC rape being PvP, this is true. That doesn't address the issue of players raping NPC's in a gratuitous, totally non plot advancing way, when they are told they can't actually rape anyone's character. I don't want to play at that table, and no amount of game mechanics is going to fix that for me.And neither does anyone else, which is why I suppose I have seen it precisely 0 times, ever. Nor has anyone I have ever met claim it has happened to them, only ever nebulous tales that start "This one time, at a games con, apparently..." and only ever from people on the internet.
So thats hundreds of tables just for me, and hundreds more for my friends, all of us with two to three decades of gaming and going to games conventions, and not one incidence of this happening.
Pretty good odds then of it not happening.
Reckon that a games cons would have to be one of the safest places for a person to hang out at; anyone have the stats on assaults and other criminal activities at games conventions? Anyone have a news article on someone shanking someone else over a dice dispute?
Games cons are a pretty safe space, I would suggest that the reasons some women might not like them are very much related to the 'surrounds and their downsides'. On that note not every male likes them either.
I have a number of friends who have worked security at cons. There is a lot going on behind the scenes that is not necessarily pleasant. Sexual assaults are a major thing at large cons, especially where the is a large percentage of cosplayers. I have multiple friends who have complained about being groped at cons. Most of them will no longer take pictures with people at cons because of it.
Geek culture tends to be very inclusive and welcoming to people normally outcast. We tend to be willing to tollerate bad behavior in others. This turns off a lot of people who don't want to associated with the social outcasts. Sometimes those people are outcasts for very good reasons and we need to turn them away too. It wont happen unless people speak out about the problems though.
I agree with Alice, ...
I am sure this is not the intention, but the vibe I am getting here is "we want more girls/women in gaming, but if the only way some of them are going to be interested is if we make a product that is pink and cutesy, then those aren't the type of girls/women we want in our gaming community." Seems a bit elitist. Just because you might not need that to get you into the hobby, and the fact that you are here shows you didn't, doesn't mean that some other girls/women don't. Are they any less worth of our inclusion merely because they have slightly different tastes? Also as others mention this might pick up some guys that are into that stuff as well, such as brony-types.
Basically I would hope we aren't coming across as something like this as a community.
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I agree with Alice, ...I am sure this is not the intention, but the vibe I am getting here is "we want more girls/women in gaming, but if the only way some of them are going to be interested is if we make a product that is pink and cutesy, then those aren't the type of girls/women we want in our gaming community." Seems a bit elitist. Just because you might not need that to get you into the hobby, and the fact that you are here shows you didn't, doesn't mean that some other girls/women don't. Are they any less worth of our inclusion merely because they have slightly different tastes? Also as others mention this might pick up some guys that are into that stuff as well, such as brony-types.
I think the reactions you're seeing are in response to the male point of view of dangling the pink carrot over the ledge and seeing how many girls jump for the pink carrot.
No, we found other things that got us into gaming and into the industry, and I think (speaking for the women) that we realize that there might be some that need the pink carrot to become interested. But in the long run that doesn't address the core reason for this thread.
A pink carrot is only going to last so long, and then it isn't pink and shiney anymore, at some point there has to be some substance to the carrot.
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I think with that I'm done with this thread -- the post could have been edited to remove the 5 word phrase that was apparently so offendable. We have posts about how to make things colored appropriately for women and what kind of "carrots" women need to being them in. But a frank post on what causes the majority of women to avoid public gaming arenas is deleted. There are large parts of this thread that have offended me and I'm fairly un-offendable.
Have fun storming the castle. I'm out. And no I'm not going to email with complaints about the moderation. I've said what I have to say.
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I agree with Alice, ...I am sure this is not the intention, but the vibe I am getting here is "we want more girls/women in gaming, but if the only way some of them are going to be interested is if we make a product that is pink and cutesy, then those aren't the type of girls/women we want in our gaming community." Seems a bit elitist. Just because you might not need that to get you into the hobby, and the fact that you are here shows you didn't, doesn't mean that some other girls/women don't. Are they any less worth of our inclusion merely because they have slightly different tastes? Also as others mention this might pick up some guys that are into that stuff as well, such as brony-types.I think the reactions you're seeing are in response to the male point of view of dangling the pink carrot over the ledge and seeing how many girls jump for the pink carrot.
No, we found other things that got us into gaming and into the industry, and I think (speaking for the women) that we realize that there might be some that need the pink carrot to become interested. But in the long run that doesn't address the core reason for this thread.
A pink carrot is only going to last so long, and then it isn't pink and shiney anymore, at some point there has to be some substance to the carrot.
I disgree. I had this discussion with my wife a week or so ago when it came up At first, she said it was kind of sexist. She was under th impression I was saying "what would you think of a Pathfinder box game that was pink, purple, or softer colors, designed for women?"
After we talked a bit about what she thought, it became clear she was misunderstanding, thinking the game would be called "Pathfinder Pink", (which is what she had an issue with). When I told her, the design would be more pink colors, she responded that that was actually really cool, and a great idea. Not only for our daughter who is still really into princesses and stuff, but for her, who is sort of a social butterfly, semi tom-boyish. So I think some females are trying to speak for all females on that one, when it's just not the case. While doing a pink and purple female orientated game might drive some females away, I feel it would draw in more than it offended.
As to PC on PC rape being PvP, this is true. That doesn't address the issue of players raping NPC's in a gratuitous, totally non plot advancing way, when they are told they can't actually rape anyone's character. I don't want to play at that table, and no amount of game mechanics is going to fix that for me.And neither does anyone else, which is why I suppose I have seen it precisely 0 times, ever. Nor has anyone I have ever met claim it has happened to them, only ever nebulous tales that start "This one time, at a games con, apparently..." and only ever from people on the internet.
So thats hundreds of tables just for me, and hundreds more for my friends, all of us with two to three decades of gaming and going to games conventions, and not one incidence of this happening.
Pretty good odds then of it not happening.
Are you claiming that the women in this thread are just making these incidents up?
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Are you claiming that the women in this thread are just making these incidents up?
Though it's not directed at me, I am a litle skeptical just how often this sort of thing happens. I have a fairly long history with the game (and many others), have played with a lot of different groups, and a lot of different people. I have playe with some people that really gave me some bad feelings, (
While I'm not saying that makes me an expert, I've never seen that sort of thing. Guys, well we are just not into rape, despite the picture some women want to paint. It is not a turn on, it is not something we think would be fun, and it is not something we would ever want to think or pretend to do to someone else.
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BTW, have you only had problems with women and kids or were you just highlighting those to contrast with the examples of bad male behavior? It just struck me as odd.
Sorry, I didn't really mean it as a contast to male behavior, as much as there are only a handful of examples I can think of that I kind of had a really bad vibe about playing with the person on that level. The two specific ones just happen to be female, but I don't really think it had anything to do with what what the actual issues where. If I could go back and edit it, I would to remove gender, as that wasn't my point. I think the issue with the immature guys is by far more common, but there are a few guys that really kind of took it far beyond.
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Ok, seems the thread is growing more heads than a hydra. And with all those mouths think I shall type carefully. It strikes me that we trying to relate to an issue that is a directly symptom of current gender roll. We are all thinking like mad to try and solve the men, women, and LGBT (lesbian, gay, bi, transgendered) conundrum. The game space is a reflection of the RW that every play inhabits. No matter how much of a "game" RPG's are, they draw from the RW, and the players at the table. Thanks to oversexed media, books like 50 shades (of nothing like reality), and porn on the internet, the bad behavior is being encouraged. Young men and women are steeped in it from a young age, and I dare say what passes for normal sexual development in young people is WAY different than when I was 16.
However, there is a point to my rant, for which I thank all for letting me do. The point is that RPG's are a micro version of RW, thus just as they are influenced by society and culture in their creation, cannot they also push back and affect the macrocosm they represent. By actively, intelligently, and tastefully tackling the sexism subject in the microcosm of RPG's, we learn on the smaller scale what it takes to face down the macro version. I think it would be telling if a subculture like ours were to take a lead role in throwing down the absurd sex and gender wall that modern culture has built and in whose shadow we all suffer.
Lastly, I'd like to speak to the issue IG rape, and other delicate or unpleasant actions. It is of merit to mention that all have a place in history, and thus enter the RP space as such. The trick is to walk the fine line on delicate or upsetting actions. I do NOT allow PC on PC actions of this type, but do draw heavily on them to set a tone. Evil folk do evil things, they are often slavers, rapers, murderers, etc. So those terrible things do come up, and in mixed company. I have had no real issues over 23 years of GMing. In fact, if anything, on a personal level gaming in that way has shaped ME for the better. I am aware that my own experiences are not representative of the hobby as a whole, but I truly think I am a better person for all the hours I have spent tromping in the minds of villains and bastards. They are the examples of what I wish to never be. Thus at the table GM's need to be more than just a story teller, they need to know who is at their table, and strive to keep it an environment that all players are comfortable in.
So, in closing, these 21 pages of posts include a ton of good suggestions on how to attack the sexism problem. If ever just a quarter of them were tried, I think the ripples it set off would do allot of good. No change is instant or easy, but it is the TRYING that is important. For as they say, "nothing ventured, nothing gained."
Pink Pathfinder and other pink stuff only reinforces degenerated role models and is something the world surely does not need. I think it is actually insulting to women. How would you feel as a man if someone came along and tell you oh look there are those babyblue products, those are especially for you, you should stick to them?
Princess is a word used as a derogatory for women, someone who has been spoiled to the point of not being able to do the simpliest stuff alone and is over sensitive about things respective to his person or will.
Cosplayers are a different problem somehow. You have some people who build up all their desires to something that doesn´t actually exist, are perhaps socially inept and then meet personalizations of those.
What do you expect to happen? I don´t say it´s good or cool or anything like that, but in this case it is a reaction you can expect with at least some.
That only hints at how deep sexism is routed in our societies and how it is used by some to generate money out of others and reinforced for that purpose. Not to mention how others need sexism as structural power to maintain their grip on society to hold their positions of power and wealth.
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Are you claiming that the women in this thread are just making these incidents up?As to PC on PC rape being PvP, this is true. That doesn't address the issue of players raping NPC's in a gratuitous, totally non plot advancing way, when they are told they can't actually rape anyone's character. I don't want to play at that table, and no amount of game mechanics is going to fix that for me.And neither does anyone else, which is why I suppose I have seen it precisely 0 times, ever. Nor has anyone I have ever met claim it has happened to them, only ever nebulous tales that start "This one time, at a games con, apparently..." and only ever from people on the internet.
So thats hundreds of tables just for me, and hundreds more for my friends, all of us with two to three decades of gaming and going to games conventions, and not one incidence of this happening.
Pretty good odds then of it not happening.
That is certainly what it sounds like to me. It makes me angry, and sad. I think I've had enough of this thread. There are obvious posters who make it unpleasant to read.
Are you claiming that the women in this thread are just making these incidents up?Though it's not directed at me, I am a litle skeptical just how often this sort of thing happens...
While I'm not saying that makes me an expert, I've never seen that sort of thing. Guys, well we are just not into rape, despite the picture some women want to paint. It is not a turn on, it is not something we think would be fun, and it is not something we would ever want to think or pretend to do to someone else.
It's happened to me and roughly half the other gamer women i know. And has been repeatedly attested in this thread (and elsewhere on the messageboards). So yes, while the percentage of guys pulling this bs is low, it's something that a LOT of women have to deal with.
And it's very frustrating when despite all those data points, people don't believe that because it hasn't happened to them.
ANYWAY. Any more constructive suggestions, targeting any of the levels of address? We've had some great ones so far!
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Here's a new suggestion that I haven't seen called out yet...
More cool mini's of female heroes. My daughters have been especially drawn to Kyra and Merisiel...and even Seoni (to a lesser degree). They often argue over who gets to play those characters (and use their mini's) in the various scenarios I've run for them with the Beginner Box. In general, I've always noticed that whenever they see any artwork in a Paizo product...or any "artwork" in the form of a new miniature...they always identify with and ask questions about those that are obviously female. Not so much the monster or evil NPC ones, mind you...but the ones they see as heroes fighting against the bad guys/monsters. So, give them more of those to inspire them and I think it helps foster their continued interest in the game.
In some ways, miniatures are kind of like tiny dolls or action figures in their minds. Both are toys they already have an intense interest in. So, I think this is a product line that could benefit from more positive role models to depict for them, as well.
Just another penny,
--Neil