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I have a question on the Adaptive ability. If I have an adaptive bow, can I use it with a higher str than it's rated for and get the additional bonus damage?
The text reads:
"An adaptive bow responds to the strength of its wielder, acting as a bow with a strength rating equal to its wielder's Strength bonus. The wielder can fire it with a lesser Strength bonus (and cause less damage) if desired."
Based on the first sentence, I think I could buy a Composite Bow with the minimum str rating (+0). If I have a +4 strength bonus, I'd still get the full +4 to damage.
However, based on the second sentence, I think I need to buy the bow with the maximum str rating I'd ever want to use, say +6 (+4 for Str and +2 for Bull's Strength). All the adaptive quality does is let me use the bow with my normal +4 str bonus without the -2 penalty.
Which is the correct interpretation?
If you have an adaptive bow then it simply acts as a "composite bow +X" where X is your acting strength modifier, it "adapts" to your strength so that you never have to get another bow made if you get a higher strenght
That's how I read it at first. But the second sentence sounds like it only adapts to a lower str, not a higher one. Is that supposed to be an example or a restriction?
The Adaptive replaces the STR rating with the Wielders. The only time the original rating comes into play is if the Magic gets suppressed or dispelled.
The second sentence is so you can choose to deal less static damage.
It means if for some reason you want to cause less damage you can, meaning you can treat it as if it were a "composite bow +1" as if you had 12 strength even if you have 30 strength and only add a +1 on damage instead of adding a full +10
The second sentence gives you the option of using the bow at a lesser strength bonus than that of the user (perhaps you don't want to do full damage for some reason) but does NOT give you the option of using the bow at a strength rating greater than that of the user, although I can think of no reason that you'd want to do this.
Your first interpretation is correct. The second sentence just means you do not have to use the full or any strength bonus if you do not want to. I am pretty sure that using a normal bow with a strength rating means if you do not use the full bonus you take the penalty to hit. With an adaptive bow you can use it at any level of strength without a penalty.
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Yep, it lets you adjust the rating between 0 and your current Str modifier, without taking any penalties, nor requiring you to use your current Str in situations where it might be inadvisable.
You are part of a group sent to capture someone, and the person you were sent to capture is staggered, so you know that any hit will knock them unconscious. You can also be fairly sure, at that point, that using your full set of damage modifiers, including Str mod, would not only knock them out, but likely take them straight to dead, forcing either your quest to fail, or your Cleric to have to burn up one of their high level spell slots casting Breath of Life. And, if the Cleric does too good a job, you get to have to take your target down a second time.
In that case, you would do what you could to minimize damage to what you could feel sure would knock out your target without killing them, so being able to reduce your Str mod, not being forced to use your full +6 on damage, could turn out to be a good idea....
"The second sentence just means you do not have to use the full or any strength bonus if you do not want to."
Can you do that with a normal composite bow:
"All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow."
You do take the -2 to hit if your strength isn't high enough, but it sounds like you don't have to add your bonus if you don't want to.
I'm glad that my first interpretation of Adaptive seems to be the common one: that makes it much more useful.
The STR rating on a bow is what you need to be using without taking a penalty. If the Bow is rated at a 18 STR (+4) and you use less than 18 STR (+4) you take a penalty. If you have a 20 STR (+5) and are using the same bow all you get is the 18 STR (+4) even though you have a higher STR.
Physically the only way to not use the full STR of the bow is not to draw the arrow back to the full extension of the bow. Shooting with anything but a full extension of the bow is going to change the aim point and make it a lot more difficult to hit with. Having used a bow in real life I can tell you trying to fire a bow half drawn is incredibly difficult.
When you use a bow rated stronger than your strength the penalty is coming from your struggle to draw the bow. You often end up releasing too soon or not getting your anchor point right. If the draw is too much your hand ends up shaking.
I would say that if you are not using the full STR rating of the bow you take the penalty. The Adaptive quality allows you to use a lesser strength without penalty.
well yea it lets you use a lesser strength without penalty...but for me its basically a way to avoid having to find a new composite bow any time you up your strength bonus...and to get more damage from your bow if you happen to be under magic effects to increase strength as well so you still get some benefit out of it the way melee does.
You could be a Bow maker and start out making a composite bow +2 or whatever, get it to +1 enhancement and add adaptive, and now you never have to go through the hassle of buying a new bow to get a higher strength rating, then getting it enchanted, so on and so forth. You can just stick with that bow forever no matter how high your strength eventually gets. I think 1k gold is well worth that :)
Would it cost a straight up 1000gp or if you enchant it when the bow is +2 it would cost more? Thanks
It's a static +1000gp to the price.
It seems to me, the way this is being interpreted is much more beneficial than usual in favor of the players. I had originally thought that the adaptive quality simply allowed a weaker character to use a mighty composite bow that was built for a stronger character, without penalty. I would have never dreamed it would allow for a +0 Strength Mighty Composite Bow (base cost 400 gp making it Masterwork, before enchanting) to perform the same as a +6 Strength Mighty Composite bow (base cost 1000 gp before enchanting).
And the adaptive quality is a simple +1000 gp cost to add to an enchanted bow, not even +1, which would raise the cost significantly, especially if added after several other enchantments have been placed on it. I thought the 1000 gp price was appropriate when it only allowed for you to use the bow at less than the max strength, in case your character was weakened in some way, or you acquired a bow that was stronger than your character. Negating a -2 penalty for 1000 gp, was a pretty good deal already. Now you are saying you can conceivably add +10 damage (30 Strength) or more, onto a 10 strength bow for only 1000 gp? Does this not cause anyone to one to rethink what the adaptive quality actually does?
Does this not cause anyone to one to rethink what the adaptive quality actually does?
Not me.
This strikes me as a rule of convenience. The +1000 is not "adding" damage, rather the extra damage it letting you apply the bonus you have earned/paid for some other way. It lets players build a bow and not worry that it becomes obsolete if they tick up strength along the way. You don't have that problem with and other type of weapon, so this doesn't appear to upset balance much at all.
And it's not really particularly exploitable or beneficial when you consider the wealth you have when first buying a composite bow.
Getting a +2 to +4 rated composite bow (100gp per +) is just as useful getting a +0 adaptable composite bow, and signifigantly cheaper.
At that level, having 600-800gp spare gp is a great benefit (and/or buying this bow earlier instead of saving up longer).
You will eventually get adaptable whenever you get around to boosting your STR, which usually isn't right away for archers,
but during that time period you aren't getting any real benefit out of adaptable, yet there is the opportunity cost of the high price.
Even though adaptable LATER makes the 'real' +X rating NEARLY superfluous (except when dispelled, etc),
every character will still buy the real +X rating first because that is the most cost effective to them at that time.
Saving (100gp * +X rating, usually 200gp) later when you can afford to boost your STR more just isn't worth the trouble in the meantime.
Having at least a minor real STR rating IS also kind of nice for dispel scenarios.
"An adaptive bow responds to the strength of its wielder, acting as a bow with a strength rating equal to its wielder's Strength bonus. The wielder can fire it with a lesser Strength bonus (and cause less damage) if desired."
Radical thought: words mean things, and the bolded passage exists for a reason.
If scaling to the "wielder's Strength bonus" wasn't intended, the middle bolded passage wouldn't need to exist at all, if the only function was about scaling down for if you are weakened. But "the wielder's Strength bonus" can be higher than any initial STR rating for the bow, and yet nothing qualifies or limits that the adaptive bow will act as a bow with a STR rating equal to it's wielder's STR bonus.
5 month old thread necro for what? So we can all explain how it works AGAIN?
I'm with BBT on this
And it's not really particularly exploitable or beneficial when you consider the wealth you have when first buying a composite bow.
Getting a +2 to +4 rated composite bow (100gp per +) is just as useful getting a +0 adaptable composite bow, and signifigantly cheaper.
At that level, having 600-800gp spare gp is a great benefit (and/or buying this bow earlier instead of saving up longer).
You will eventually get adaptable whenever you get around to boosting your STR, which usually isn't right away for archers,
but during that time period you aren't getting any real benefit out of adaptable, yet there is the opportunity cost of the high price.
Even though adaptable LATER makes the 'real' +X rating NEARLY superfluous (except when dispelled, etc),
every character will still buy the real +X rating first because that is the most cost effective to them at that time.
Saving (100gp * +X rating, usually 200gp) later when you can afford to boost your STR more just isn't worth the trouble in the meantime.
Having at least a minor real STR rating IS also kind of nice for dispel scenarios.
So what you are saying, is that the ruling is based on making things easier, and less expensive for characters, and just more affordable? I guess that would make sense, if there have not been rulings that appear to be just the opposite.
Granted, I am talking about PFS, but besides excluding classes that don't fit their campaign world, the few things that they have taken exception to that are in the different rules books have to do with making things more affordable for characters. Example 1) Banned the traits Rich Parents and Unblemished Barrel. Both of these make make it more convenient for a character, either by giving them more money or saving them money. Example 2) Also banned is the item Bracers of Falcon's Aim. The reasoning for this, is that for only 4000 gp, you gain +3 skill, +1 BAB, and expand the crit range from 20 to 19-20. Now I would think if the rationale was to save the characters money, and make things easier, this item would be allowed, as it not nearly as powerful as allowing an adaptive composite bow built for strength 10, to give a +10 strength bonus or more for only 1000 gp.
Personally, I don't believe the idea is to make things easy. Once things become easy, than the challenge is removed, and when the challenge is removed, the fun is removed. I know that concept is foreign to many, but I am a bit old school that way. To quote coach Jimmy Dugan (Tom Hanks in "A League of Their Own"), "It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great."
edited for punctuation.
As Gwen's quote of the rules for CLBs show, standard non-adaptive CLBs also allow that,
it's just rarely used so people aren't familiar with the fact it is allowed.
Actually it says:
An adaptive bow responds to the strength of its wielder, acting as a bow with a strength rating equal to its wielder's Strength bonus. The wielder can fire it with a lesser Strength bonus (and cause less damage) if desired."
Adaptive does X. Optionally, that is, if desired, you can do Y with it.
Base, it does the wielders strength bonus in extra damage, regardless of what that is. This is X. "...acting as a bow with a strength rating equal to its wielder's Strength bonus."
The wielder may opt to do less damage. This is Y. "The wielder can fire it with a lesser Strength bonus (and cause less damage) if desired."
This would not be the first time we had a poorly written rule in Pathfinder. When I look at this, I look for what is the most balanced interpretation, based on price and usefulness in comparison to other weapon qualities. While I do not mean to be insulting, it seems that others are looking for what will give them the biggest bang for the buck, and if this is a loophole, they are going to exploit the hell out of it, until a revision is made. I would argue, that even if Adaptive was meant to make any composite bow grant ANY strength bonus, the price would be far more than a flat 1000 GP. If applied in that manner, it is at least a +2 enhancement if not more. Holy grants an average of 7 points damage per shot...but only against evil. Adaptive with this liberal interpretation is certainly more powerful than +1 enchantments like "Huntsman" or "Distance". Yet Adaptive is listed as the least expensive, least powerful enchantment in the Weapon Special Abilities section.
That just does not add up.
How is it more powerful...if I have a + 3 strength and a composite bow +3 then I do the bows damage plus my strength (+3)...no question on this
If my strength goes up...say it was 17 and I hit level 8 and raised it to 18...now I have to buy a new composite bow if I want to get +4 (my str bonus) to damage....again no question
OR I could have had an adaptive bow...so when my str bonus was +3 I would do +3 damage...and at level 8 when by str bonus went to +4 then my bow would allow me to do +4 damage
How is this overpowered in any sense of the word??
This is as clearly written a rule as I could ever find in all of pathfinder...please explain where it is not clear
It comes down to that Adaptive never does anything for you in the moment, unlike "Holy", "Distance", or vanilla Enhancement bonus.
In the moment, a normal bow tuned to your STR does the same damage and effect that Adaptive would do.
Adaptive's benefit is the convenience of not having to replace a bow with another one, and not taking a major attack penalty if you take STR damage.
How the game balances gear is Wealth By Level. That is your current wealth, because wealth you lost is no longer your wealth.
So needing to have sold an obsolete bow and buy a new one doesn't impact your WBL any more than just having bought the new one directly.
Adaptive doesn't provide any advantage there, and in fact it's always taking up 1000gp of your WBL. It's just convenience,
in term of not needing to replace the bow/immediately having it be tuned to your STR,
and protecting you in cases where you might suddenly take STR drain... Which isn't a power up, but insurance against a de-buff.
You might disagree with it's pricing. I would say that STR drain scenarios are such a minor part of the game,
that helping protect against one disproportionate side-effect of that for archers (without negating the direct effect of STR drain)
is just seen as something that doesn't really require all that great of a cost.
Likewise for accomodating STR-boosting Barbarians, since using Bows/Ranged (with DEX) for them is already less optimal,
since they aren't able to use STR for attack and damage, but must rely on two stat.
But whatever, I don't know that anybody would agree on any unique item's pricing exactly.
That still has zero bearing on what the rules clearly state and mean for the item's function.
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This would not be the first time we had a poorly written rule in Pathfinder. When I look at this, I look for what is the most balanced interpretation, based on price and usefulness in comparison to other weapon qualities. While I do not mean to be insulting, it seems that others are looking for what will give them the biggest bang for the buck, and if this is a loophole, they are going to exploit the hell out of it, until a revision is made. I would argue, that even if Adaptive was meant to make any composite bow grant ANY strength bonus, the price would be far more than a flat 1000 GP. If applied in that manner, it is at least a +2 enhancement if not more. Holy grants an average of 7 points damage per shot...but only against evil. Adaptive with this liberal interpretation is certainly more powerful than +1 enchantments like "Huntsman" or "Distance". Yet Adaptive is listed as the least expensive, least powerful enchantment in the Weapon Special Abilities section.
That just does not add up.
You are right. This weapon enhancement's cost should be more in line with what it does. Replace the 1,000 gp cost with the 100 gp cost that it will usually be replacing.
In most situations, a dedicated archer's Strength will not usually change much, if at all, for his entire career. An archer is usually going to be increasing their Dex (Wis?) instead of their Str, as they want to hit their target.
Now, this enhancement is great for the Sunday archer, the one who usually goes into combat with that two-handed weapon, and boost their Strength at every opportunity, since it is usually both their to hit and their damage stat. But even there, it mainly just helps them keep their back-up weapon up to spec. Sure they may have an effective increase in modifier of +5 from stat bumps from level, and 3 from a +6 stat item, but that is still, overall, less than the cost of the difference in actual non-magical Strength rating on the bow.
And, yes, you will find the rare purchase of a Str +0 composite longbow with this enhancement added, but that is, usually, either a late bow purchase, or extremely sub-optimal for several levels of use. To get this enhancement added to the bow, the bow has to have at least a +1 to hit & damage magical enhancement bonus already.
In either case, you either have someone without a ranged weapon for several levels, or someone using one that doesn't grant any bonus damage for several levels.
And only Pun Pun could get that +1,000 STr mod change. And if you are running Pun Pun, there are going to be too many other issues involved for this bow enhancement to be much of a bump in that road.
I think the second sentence is here if you want to enchant a bow which already have a STR mod. Happened in a campaign I play.
Example: A group find a bow used by an enemy champion orc barbarian with +6 STR mod. The warrior find it mightier if he could use the bow as a token of his virility and domination over the orcs, but his lower STR mod can't fit... Except with this cool enchantment.
Without that sentence, some people would have argue you can't use a bow under the original STR mod required. IMHO, of course.
How is it more powerful...if I have a + 3 strength and a composite bow +3 then I do the bows damage plus my strength (+3)...no question on this
If my strength goes up...say it was 17 and I hit level 8 and raised it to 18...now I have to buy a new composite bow if I want to get +4 (my str bonus) to damage....again no question
OR I could have had an adaptive bow...so when my str bonus was +3 I would do +3 damage...and at level 8 when by str bonus went to +4 then my bow would allow me to do +4 damage
How is this overpowered in any sense of the word??
This is as clearly written a rule as I could ever find in all of pathfinder...please explain where it is not clear
Answering this question, plus the other legitimate and snarky queries:
IF the Adaptive quality was only used so that if you have a composite bow built to a certain strength (lets say +3) and a character is weakened or another character with a lesser strength attempts to use the bow, they can use the bow without penalty (as the rules require), BUT they do not get the +3 Mighty bonus, simply the Strength bonus they currently possess...then YES, 1000 gp is a very appropriate price, and Adaptive deserves its place at the top of the Enhancement chart as the weakest and least expensive weapon enhancement. The Adaptive quality is then rarely needed, and not usually useful.
BUT...
If the Adaptive quality is used as many have described earlier in this thread, where you can create a Composite Bow +0 Mighty, add +1 & Adaptive, and now you can use that bow with a 16, 20, or 30 strength, and get your full bonus, then the adaptive quality is far underpriced.
It costs 1400 gp to buy a Masterwork Mighty Composite Bow +10 Strength. That bow gives the wielder +1 BAB and +10 damage with every shot, if they meet the strength requirement. It costs 3400 gp to buy a +1 (enchantment) Mighty Composite Bow +0 Strength with the Adaptive quality. And using Adaptive as you suggest, the wielder also gets +1 BAB (as well as ability to do full damage to creatures that require a magic weapon to do full damage) & +11 (with the same 30 strength) damage every shot. And the magical bow is usuable by anyone from strength 6 to strength 100 with no penalty and additional bonuses if they surpass 31 strength.
IF you are reading this, and confident that this is fair, and the way the rule is supposed to be, then you should have no problem clicking the FAQ tab at the top of this thread and getting an official ruling on the Adaptive quality. However, if you are one of those that is just arguing to keep a loophole that has not been discovered from the powers that be, then keep on making claims that this is even less powerful than a +1 weapon enchantment (which costs 2000 gp). If you really believe your arguments, click the FAQ and lets get this settled. But so far, only two people have in this thread, which leads me to believe people are not as confident in their arguments as they claim.
I would be happy to be proven wrong, but I have not seen anything in this thread that would dissuade me. As stated before, rules have been badly worded before...that's why there is errata, and why this forum exists.
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People aren't going to click FAQ on a rule they think is clear just becasue you dare them to, I would hope.
It never even occured to me reading this ability that adaptive would do anything other than let the bow change to match your current strength bonus. For most archers it's already overpriced. You have to get to a +7 strength bonus before the mundane alternative becomes more expensive, and most archers won't have a +7 strength even when buffed. You pay the extra premium to be able to take advantage of raging or bull's strength.
Adaptive does work as blackbloodtroll says - it basically makes all composite bows identical outside of an antimagic field. I find this disappointing, and quite powerful for just +1000gp, but that is the intent.
In my homegame, I've allowed a version in reverse - 'of Ease', that can reduce the Str rating down to the users. This lets a barbarian use it without penalty when not raging, but he still has to pay for the full Str Rating he wants.
For PFS, it was decided that Strength ratings on bows could not be adjusted (it was allowed initially), as there are no rules for it. Given no house rules, no GM to adjust 'wealth by level', forcing archers to sell off their weapons repeatedly to keep up with their strength score is arduous. For that, I agree with the inclusion of this ability.
Overall, I would put it at a +1 ability. It scales up as the archer levels and gets more strength, and the relative cost scales with the +'s on the bow. If an archer isn't likely to get many strength increases, they can just do without this ability.
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IF you are reading this, and confident that this is fair, and the way the rule is supposed to be, then you should have no problem clicking the FAQ tab at the top of this thread and getting an official ruling on the Adaptive quality.
This is as clearly written a rule as I could ever find in all of pathfinder...please explain where it is no clear
But there's no real point in FAQing something just to get a 'it works the way it says it does' response.
So I think I have it...if somehow I manage to get 30 strength with a +10 str bonus...and I am an archer...then its unfair for me to get my +10 bonus on damage (just damage since dex is what I use to hit...to get 30 str I would have had to all but dump all my other abilities or be in the 14-20 level range...AND I have to have either an adaptive bow or a composite bow +10
However its perfectly feasible for any melee character to always get his str bonus to damage AND to hit...for nothing at all?
Realistically I haven't seen many archers with more than a +4 or +5 str bonus...and that's way up in the levels...so you need to stop using a +10 bonus like its common
There is no loophole to this ability...it does EXACTLY what it says is does...by RAW and RAI it is clear and even with your explanation it still doesn't seem overpowered or underpriced
No I will not FAQ it...it will never be FAQ'd...even with 1000 FAQs it will simply be answered with one of their normal post to get it out of the queue since it does exactly what it says it does
This is the rules forum...by the rules adaptive is worded clearly and does what it says
If you have a rules question about adaptive please ask it...if not please move this conversation to advice or general discussion...it is no longer a rules issue
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Wouldn't an adaptive clb cost 3100 gold? 100 for the bow, 1000 for the adaptive special ability and 2000 for the base enhancement bonus. In the weapons section of the magic items chapter, it says
"A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.".
Adding masterwork is not needed because the same section says
"All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons"
For that price, having the damage change to match the str bonus seems to be a fair trade-off and not underpriced at all.
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Wouldn't an adaptive clb cost 3100 gold? 100 for the bow, 1000 for the adaptive special ability and 2000 for the base enhancement bonus. In the weapons section of the magic items chapter, it says
"A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.".
Adding masterwork is not needed because the same section says
"All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons"
For that price, having the damage change to match the str bonus seems to be a fair trade-off and not underpriced at all.
Yes. A standard +1 adaptive longbow would have a price of 3,100gp. A magic bow must be at least +1 before it can be enchanted with the adaptive quality.
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Yes. A standard +1 adaptive longbow would have a price of 3,100gp. A magic bow must be at least +1 before it can be enchanted with the adaptive quality.Wouldn't an adaptive clb cost 3100 gold? 100 for the bow, 1000 for the adaptive special ability and 2000 for the base enhancement bonus. In the weapons section of the magic items chapter, it says
"A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.".
Adding masterwork is not needed because the same section says
"All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons"
For that price, having the damage change to match the str bonus seems to be a fair trade-off and not underpriced at all.
3400 gp
100 for longbow
300 for masterwork
2000 for +1
1000 for adaptive.
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Yes. A standard +1 adaptive longbow would have a price of 3,100gp. A magic bow must be at least +1 before it can be enchanted with the adaptive quality.Wouldn't an adaptive clb cost 3100 gold? 100 for the bow, 1000 for the adaptive special ability and 2000 for the base enhancement bonus. In the weapons section of the magic items chapter, it says
"A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.".
Adding masterwork is not needed because the same section says
"All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons"
For that price, having the damage change to match the str bonus seems to be a fair trade-off and not underpriced at all.
3400 gp
100 for longbow
300 for masterwork
2000 for +1
1000 for adaptive.
Aaarrrggghhh!
I stand corrected. Serves me right for posting at night after 8 hours of work.