Well first, as your setting sounds like an "Emerging Guns" setting, it recommends that Advanced Guns would be very rare treasures for the player. So, discovering how to make them as part of a quest sounds fine to me, but I'd prevent him from doing so till around level ~9 or so, just before he choses another gun training weapon.
As for Advanced guns being overpowered... I'd say no. Yeah, the touch AC with in 5 ranges thing is really nice, but honestly it's nothing worse than what it already does(since the range penalties still apply it means they just won't attempt to get closer). Even as a gunslinger getting to add dex, it's no worse than a composite bow user. And losing the explosion on a 2nd missfire's nice too, since it's always sorta silly to punish players on a 1 imo.
The balancing factor is the cost of upkeep & replacement of advanced guns. For example, advanced guns use Cartridges for ammo. That means your paying either 15 or 12 gp per bullet, not counting special materials or enchantment. Yes, making these bullet cartridges will reduce it, but throwing several dozen creatures can eat through a Gunslingers wealth by the thousands. And if you destroy/steal a Gunslingers gun? A guns that costs 4000 gp before enhancement is just... a lot to pay for. Like a signifigant portion of their WBL.
Edit: As an aside, did you mention what the setting qualified as for the Advanced Firearms rules at the start of gameplay? If you did, and said guns were "Very rare", your well within your rights to say no to advanced firearms. If not, well I'd just allow it since you didn't specify(Though I for one don't have a problem with them so I'm probably not biased).
Also, as for him wiping the floor with your enemies, throw incoporeals, fey, or monks at him every once in a while. They generally have high touch ACs,making it harded for a Gunslinger to wipe the floor with them, and give other members a chance to shine.
If you feel he is already dominating, simply say no and explain why.
If you feel he is already dominating, simply say no and explain why.
You can do this yeah, but I feel that's a betrayl of DM/PC trust, especially if you didn't warn him ahead of time that it wasn't an option. It's one thing to deny him it outright, it's another to misrepresent the situation to the PC.
Like I said, there are ways around him wrecking things(enemies with high touch AC's). And as BBT said, it's very resource intesive(both money & feats) to get to their "powerful" state. Even then, as any caster will tell you, damage is a very inefficient means of "winning" encounters compared to what they can do by the level a gunslinger becomes most effective.
DMs have this wonder power: the ability to say no. It's really quite amazing... The power of life and death, the key to untold adventure and fantasy... Or not.
If you feel he is already dominating, simply say no and explain why.You can do this yeah, but I feel that's a betrayl of DM/PC trust, especially if you didn't warn him ahead of time that it wasn't an option. It's one thing to deny him it outright, it's another to misrepresent the situation to the PC.
Like I said, there are ways around him wrecking things(enemies with high touch AC's). And as BBT said, it's very resource intesive(both money & feats) to get to their "powerful" state. Even then, as any caster will tell you, damage is a very inefficient means of "winning" encounters compared to what they can do by the level a gunslinger becomes most effective.
...it's a BETRAYAL of DM/PC trust because he is trying to communicate a concern/issue to a player?
...it's a BETRAYAL of DM/PC trust because he is trying to communicate a concern/issue to a player?
To an extent yes. Its one thing talking to communicate with your players to ensure everyone's enjoying the game because of one character's stealing the spotlight. I feel it's another to completely deny a set of weaponry without telling them ahead of time. It's not that the DM can't do it, it's just the lesser option compared to what the OP himself suggested. A minor betrayal if you will.
I'll give you, Gunslingers can be powerful, and I personally can see why people ban them in their homebrews in lower level games, but you as a DM make a choice before allowing something in game. You're supposed to research things, make decisions on what's allowed and what's not allowed. I've known people who only play with the books they own, denying any other materials just cause they aren't familiar with things even if they had PDFs or access to PRDs. And I feel if the DM didn't make clear the State of Guns was before "Emerging Firearms", I feel that they didn't represent things well to the player. They still have the right to make the call, but I feel it's a lame move.
And I mean, here's a better question: If the Gunslinger wasn't performing so well, would you have otherwise allowed them Advanced Firearms? If so, I think there's a relatively minor problem in terms of consistency.
The player asks a question.
The DM answers it.
Assuming the DM gives his honest answer, there is no betrayal at all.
PC: "hey DM, can I craft X? I haven't seen it available yet"
Dm: "You are already fairly powerful, I don't think allowing those is a good idea yet. Lets give it a few levels and if things change then I'm open to reconsidering."
As long as the DM isn't just trolling his players or being an arbitrary jerk I can't really see how its a betrayal of trust at all. Rather its just what should happen- the player wants access to something and the DM has to evaluate the effect on that something on the campaign before saying yes or no.
As to the OP:
Talk to the player about his power relative to the group. Discuss it with him, as well as what you expect the new guns would do to the campaign.
If you think its going to present a problem, under no circumstances grant the item(s) to him. Just be honest and up front with him about the whys.
-S
I think what Darth was intending, and something that I think is important for GMs to consider....
When someone first decides to play a gun-wielding character, the player and the GM need to talk and determine what the practical availability of advanced firearms is going to be.
The Player might read "emerging" and interpret that as "not readily available so you make it yourself or kill someone that was shooting one at you"
The GM might read "emerging" as "cold day in hell" and "about as common as a wand of orcus"
This isn't the kind of thing that shouldn't be clarified until the PCs are already mid level. This answer should be known by the player day one.
Also, if your game has the "Friendly magic shoppe" in each town and every shop has one of "every item in the core book", it has to be frustrating to the Gunslinger that flexible equipment is available for everyone else in a pawn shop but he isn't allowed to even craft what he wants.
(Don't take this as a ringing endorsement for advanced firearms, I tend to ban them, or require a specific high level quest to be completed to allow crafting them, but no gun using player in my game would start not knowing my intent)
I think what Darth was intending, and something that I think is important for GMs to consider....
When someone first decides to play a gun-wielding character, the player and the GM need to talk and determine what the practical availability of advanced firearms is going to be.
The Player might read "emerging" and interpret that as "not readily available so you make it yourself or kill someone that was shooting one at you"
The GM might read "emerging" as "cold day in hell" and "about as common as a wand of orcus"
This isn't the kind of thing that shouldn't be clarified until the PCs are already mid level. This answer should be known by the player day one.
This. I feel you got my point across better than I did lol.
Which weapon does he use now? Pistol, musket, blunderbuss? Does he want to craft a revolver, rifle or shutgun?
Does he have craft (alchemy)? Can he make his own paper cartridges?
He may be better off taking master craftsman and then craft arms and armor, so he can make his own magical firearms, but if he really wants it, I'd invent a new feat. Say:
Advanced Gunsmithing
Prerequisites: craft (alchemy): 5 ranks, gunslinger level 7.
Choose a firearm that the gunslinger has gun training in. He now may make an advanced version of the type of gun, (pistol -> revolver, musket -> rifle, blunderbuss -> shotgun), and his gun training special ability works for the advanced version of the weapon. He can also make metal cartridges to use in his advanced weapon. The gunslinger may take this feat mutiple times, choosing a different weapon each time.
I considered adding master craftsman as a prerequisite as well, so it costs two feats to make advanced firearms. It depends on how hard you want to make it.
I'd say yes. The havoc you can wreak with an advanced firearm doesn't approach that of a highly optimized double-barreled pistol build. Other than the increased range at which they penetrate armor and reduced misfire chance, advanced firearms aren't that much better than early firearms. Those are some nice improvements, but hardly game breaking.
That said, the pathfinder rules recommend allowing advanced firearms at higher levels only, so I'd probably wait until 10+ just for fluff reasons, if nothing else.
...it's a BETRAYAL of DM/PC trust because he is trying to communicate a concern/issue to a player?To an extent yes. Its one thing talking to communicate with your players to ensure everyone's enjoying the game because of one character's stealing the spotlight. I feel it's another to completely deny a set of weaponry without telling them ahead of time. It's not that the DM can't do it, it's just the lesser option compared to what the OP himself suggested. A minor betrayal if you will.
I'll give you, Gunslingers can be powerful, and I personally can see why people ban them in their homebrews in lower level games, but you as a DM make a choice before allowing something in game. You're supposed to research things, make decisions on what's allowed and what's not allowed. I've known people who only play with the books they own, denying any other materials just cause they aren't familiar with things even if they had PDFs or access to PRDs. And I feel if the DM didn't make clear the State of Guns was before "Emerging Firearms", I feel that they didn't represent things well to the player. They still have the right to make the call, but I feel it's a lame move.
And I mean, here's a better question: If the Gunslinger wasn't performing so well, would you have otherwise allowed them Advanced Firearms? If so, I think there's a relatively minor problem in terms of consistency.
Under EMERGING FIREARMS, it states:
Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items— the stuff of high-level treasure troves.
Key words being MAY EXIST. May exist means, to me, it's DM's discretion as to whether or not they exist and, if they do exist, how rare they are.
If a player interprets 'may exist' as:
1) They exist
2) The PC can craft weapons that he/she likely has never heard of (outside of perhaps legends, myths, and tales), seen, or familiarized himself/herself with in any way.
... then he/she assumed incorrectly. I don't think it's up to the DM to make sure that the player doesn't draw false conclusions from ambiguous text within the rule books.
Gunslingers are already amazingly powerful and overpowered (I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for that).
If you know you're going to get flak, why'd you make a big post about it? Claiming that gunslingers are amazing and overpowered is on the same level as claiming monks are overpowered. "But they get to add two stats to AC! How broken is that!".
The only advantage of gunslingers over, say, archer builds (which have a much greater damage potential) is that they scale better against higher CR creatures who tend to have great AC but poor touch AC. I get extremely frustrated at people who claim that this is 'unfair' or 'overpowered' and then later bemoan how pathfinder has done nothing to undermine the power of wizards, druids and clerics. A physical combatant who scales (underwhelmingly) into lategame? *gasp* quick, nerf!
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Firstly, I disagree with WhiteFox's assesment of firearms and gunslingers but there's no real point over it when Full Casters are allowed in a game. They do way worse stuff.
Under EMERGING FIREARMS, it states:
Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items— the stuff of high-level treasure troves.Key words being MAY EXIST. May exist means, to me, it's DM's discretion as to whether or not they exist and, if they do exist, how rare they are.
If a player interprets 'may exist' as:
1) They exist
2) The PC can craft weapons that he/she likely has never heard of (outside of perhaps legends, myths, and tales), seen, or familiarized himself/herself with in any way.... then he/she assumed incorrectly. I don't think it's.
up to the DM to make sure that the player doesn't draw false conclusions from ambiguous text within the rule books.
Yes, in this case I think it's clear the player wants to make these items because they were likely expecting to be able to from that line.
However even if he misconstrued things, it's just about clear communication between PC and DM. If the text is ambiguous, as you've pointed out it is, it's up to the DM to not be. Ideally it should go like this:
PC: "I want to play a gunslinger, but what's the setting like in terms of guns?"
DM: "The setting's 'emerging guns' in terms of firearm technology."
PC: "Ah cool, so I'll get advanced guns at later levels right?"
DM: "No, cause I don't like them in my setting/they're OP/only at level 20."
PC: "Oh, now I've been informed I will be unable to use those types of weapons I get the opportunity to rethink my class decision."
As it was, I don't think the OP read up on guns enough to know what he/she was getting into. The PC probably just asked the OP to play a gunslinger and he said yes... And thus the OP has the situation he has and I think that it's unfair to the player unless the OP made it clear before hand just what emerging guns mean to him/her.
But that's okay, since the OP sounds like he's okay with allowing them, so long as he doesn't get them till later level after a quest or two at later levels.
Firstly, I disagree with WhiteFox's assesment of firearms and gunslingers but there's no real point over it when Full Casters are allowed in a game. They do way worse stuff.Under EMERGING FIREARMS, it states:
Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items— the stuff of high-level treasure troves.Key words being MAY EXIST. May exist means, to me, it's DM's discretion as to whether or not they exist and, if they do exist, how rare they are.
If a player interprets 'may exist' as:
1) They exist
2) The PC can craft weapons that he/she likely has never heard of (outside of perhaps legends, myths, and tales), seen, or familiarized himself/herself with in any way.... then he/she assumed incorrectly. I don't think it's.
up to the DM to make sure that the player doesn't draw false conclusions from ambiguous text within the rule books.Yes, in this case I think it's clear the player wants to make these items because they were likely expecting to be able to from that line.
However even if he misconstrued things, it's just about clear communication between PC and DM. If the text is ambiguous, as you've pointed out it is, it's up to the DM to not be. Ideally it should go like this:
PC: "I want to play a gunslinger, but what's the setting like in terms of guns?"
DM: "The setting's 'emerging guns' in terms of firearm technology."
PC: "Ah cool, so I'll get advanced guns at later levels right?"
DM: "No, cause I don't like them in my setting/they're OP/only at level 20."
PC: "Oh, now I've been informed I will be unable to use those types of weapons I get the opportunity to rethink my class decision."As it was, I don't think the OP read up on guns enough to know what he/she was getting into. The PC probably just asked the OP to play a gunslinger and he said yes... And thus the OP has the situation he has and I think that it's unfair to the player unless the OP made it clear before hand just what emerging guns mean to him/her.
But...
That's fine, but in the above scenario, the player is asking the DM if he'll be able to use advanced firearms, which isn't what you stated earlier.
... I feel that's a betrayal of DM/PC trust, especially if you didn't warn him ahead of time that it wasn't an option. It's one thing to deny him it outright, it's another to misrepresent the situation to the PC.
The DM didn't misrepresent anything to the PC if he didn't tell him advanced firearms either aren't available or can't be crafted as the former uses ambiguous text in the rule book and the latter is "at your GM's discretion." The player made assumptions about both of these without asking the DM. If anything, the player misrepresented the information to himself.
I realize we have a difference of opinion here on what is the DM's responsibility and what is the player's responsibility. There's really no right or wrong answer, obviously, when it comes down to opinion. At the end of the day, though, it's up to the DM to make a judgment call when situations arise in game, so he's going to have to make that judgment call at or prior to his next session. If it were me, I'd say, "MAYBE you'll find one in a high-level treasure trove. Please be aware that isn't a guarantee."
As someone who has GMed for a Gunslinger, he was always the highest damaging party member as soon as he got the ability to make multiple shots in a round (Rapid Shot / Rapid Reload). He was the party's muscle and that worked for my group. I gave my party gunslinger an Advanced Firearm at 11th level or so; very nice treasure.
I did make one mistake, though. I gave him a double-barreled rifle. Do NOT use double-barreled rifles unless you're prepared for the consequences. Which typically involve massive damage to your biggest monsters. Mr. Gunslinger scored a fairly average hit with his attack routine on a greater cyclops and downed it in one round; it was close to two hundred damage or something crazy. The death was retconned to be a critical hit and his gun was nerfed to a single-barrel firearm immediately.
I'd let him create them; or get them through some quest.
And have the twenty or so power groups who would absolutely have to have the technology constantly after him. He'd be sleeping with that gun under his pillowcase.......
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I've got a level 10 gunslinger in Pathfinder Society that I didn't really have any intention of optimising him. He's a musket master.
In the first few levels, it was a bit rough because you have to reload every second round. That's fine, because you're still hitting touch AC and 1d12 damage.
By the time you hit level 5 or 6, all of the downsides are gone. Reloading as a free action, you probably have rapid shot, you probably have deadly aim, and you're now doing 3d12+dex damage+whateverelse per round to touch AC.
In PFS it's probably worse because you can add enchantments to your gun without having to sell it, meaning you can get +1 bonuses like bane or +2 bonuses like holy added to it, going from great damage to insane damage per round. To touch AC for every shot.
If you do a quick skim through touch ACs in the Bestiary, you'll see just how effective this can be on a round-per-round basis. I can probably take on most encounters on my own.
And that's just with an early firearm, not an advanced firearm.
So if your player is already sweeping the floor without a gun, think twice.
Ask him 'HOW DOES IT FEEL TO WANT?'
My fave is "wish in one hand and s#+# in another..."
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see this is why I like slightly more gun heavy settings. Where they have figured out ballistic protection and add it to most armors so that gun specialists arent shooting at touch ac's. it also brings down ammo prices making them a little more managable for the characters.
To me the advanced firearms aren't too broken but I'd say if you allow your character to get them deffinatly put more unique challenges up against him and your party. Like others mentioned this should include monks and whatnot types with nice high touch ac's, but it should also include other gunslingers with thier class bonus's set up to defend against firearms. If any conversations or roleplaying happens with these brigands have them be after the shiney new legendary weapon(s) that your character has as it will be pretty noticable and recognizable letting rumors spread. Unless of course he only ever uses the new shiney out in the wilds when nobody who will be left alive will be around.
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D
2. x4 critical and with improved critical that's a 19-20 range. A gunslinger can do 100+ damage with a single crit by level 5.
How do you figger that?
Lessee, we'll assume he's got a Double Hackbut (2d12 damage) and 26 Dex (that's a +8 mod. Also a ridiculously high assumption.).
Even then he only breaks 100 by a bit if he rolls max damage (128 max).
Then you figure, that's a lolwtfsohigh level of Dex at 5, and nobody uses the Double Hackbut because it's kind of tedious to wheel around a f$&*ing CANNON.
So we'll drop back down to the usual Revolver (1d8 damage) and the much more reasonable amount of 23 Dex (a +6 mod) and max damage on a crit goes to a whopping 56. Which sounds really nice until the Barbarian hits a 45 on a non-crit.
You do realize that guns (that work efficiently) pretty much make all armor worthless until kevlar (which still sucks) and then SAPIs in the 2000s? Getting shot with even a marginal gun in platemail at moderate range would negate plate mail's AC bonus.
Neato.
I'll be sure to tell the Pit Fiend how useless his armor is when he's eating you.
Guns are <relatively> easy to use as well and don't require you to yell ABRA CADABRA with V, S, and M so people go "oh s~#&" and come after you.
If you give me a choice between a m249..or even a winchester and magic I'll take the gun. While he's waving his arms I'll put a bullet in his face. Better hope he pre-buffed before that encounter.
Unfortunately I had a clone back at my homemade demiplane so I just respawn there and then do the classic "Scry and Fry" technique on you.
By the time you hit level 5 or 6, all of the downsides are gone. Reloading as a free action, you probably have rapid shot, you probably have deadly aim, and you're now doing 3d12+dex damage+whateverelse per round to touch AC.
See this is where I start to say a lot of problems that revolve around the Gunslinger come from misconceptions about the class.
Firstly, Reloading isn't free till level 11 when you get Lightning Reload. The Rapid Reload feat, only changes reloading a Firearm to a move action for a one handed, or a standard for two handed firearms(like the musket). If there is a way to make it even faster, that greatly reduces the value of the Lightning Reload feature.
Secondly, what musket do you have that does 3d12 per hit? Cause I don't know of any thing that does that by level 6, Deadshot's a level 7 deed, even as a Musket Master. The typical feat chain is this:
1- Rapid Reload
3- Deadly Aim
4- Point Blank Shot
5- Rapid Shot
At this level, you still only have 2 attacks(3 if you it's level 6). You're taking -2 for Deadly for +4 damage, and you're taking -2 for your 2nd shot. I'm not counting Point Blank, cause if you're within Melee move range, you'll be provoking attacks for every shot, since fire arms still do that.
So your attacks are(with +5 Dex mod & 6 BAB & a +1 Weapon) +8/+8/+3 for (1d12 + 10(5 dex, 4 DA, 1 Enhancement)). That's 16.5 damage a hit on average, crits not withstanding. And mind you, you can't actually full attack, since again unless I'm missing something, a musket only has a capacity of 1 shot and firing requires you to waste a move to reload.
Edit: Now at 7, yes you can make your all you're "attacks" as a single attack for the larger damage die. But the thing is, you still only do potentially 3d12 + 10(29 damage average). And this ability, costs a whole grit point. I don't know about you, but how much grit does your gunslinger at level 7 have? 2? 3? They're a "SAD" class, so they only need dex right? This is a cool Nova ability, but it's not a thing they can do all darn day.
By the time you can actually make this a free ability(Sig. Deed), again you'll be level 11... when it's frankly just better to full attack with your real attacks and get those additional hits worth of base damage(Since you can reload between shots at this point).
Anyways, back to the OP, since I feel I'm derailing things a bit:
A revolver will be fine, it's only a d8 and spares him from reloading all the time. And yes there are several(read, a handfull) places in Golarion with advanced guns IIRC.
Unless the Pit Fiend has something that's greater than ESAPIs (maybe his skin is the equivalent of a 4 inch solid steel plate?) I think you'll be A-Ok when he's "Raaaawr!"ing at you. And obviously incorporeal creatures would be a problem. That's not the point though. Against humanoid creatures you're ridic...I'm thinking Indiana Jones where some great Knight is going to challenge your PC to a duel and you pull out your gun and BLAM that s#@% is over.
It's more the fact that it has more HP than you're likely to deal with your gun.
And then it retaliates by doing cool s##+ like turning invisible, shooting a Fireball as a Swift action and then attacking you with an attack bonus of "Yes.", firing multiple Fireballs as touch attacks, summoning other Devils, sucking your soul out of your body, or even Wishing you could just get f@+$ed for messing with him.
Not to mention technology diffuses quickly. Unless the guns are magical how long is it going to be honestly before advanced firearms spread like wildfire. Enjoy getting a bullet to the back when a 12 year old kid from Vietconglia shoots you from a window 50 meters away.
But if he's 50 meters away he's no longer attack touch AC, making him less effective than a bowman. Unless he's using a Rifle but 1d10+lol is still nothing to a PC above level 4 or so.
Or even better. You charge with your outdated gear Last Samurai style to get massive damage from a rifle line of 1st level equiv npcs.
Depends on your level. You've got a 10th level Samurai and he'll start picking the musket balls out of his teeth after he's done doing his best impression of a Cuisinart on you and your buddies.
And god help you if his name is Mitsurugi.
Everyone seems to assume alchemical cartridges that take the load time down a step on their own and stacks with rapid reload. Making one handed firearms and musket master reloads a free action.
I see what you mean now that it's been pointed out, but I still disagree since:
First, Muskets are 2 Handed Firearms. Rapid Reload, treats reloading one as a Standard action. A standard action would be reduced to a move action. Unless you can full attack with a move that doesn't make it free till 11th level.
Secondly, I don't like how it jumps from a move action to a free action. For single handed weapons, it would go to a move with the feat, then a free action with this ammo, yet lighting reload goes to swift actions and it's a level 11 ability. Sort of a dumb design decision imo.
Edit: I see it now, that since it treats it as a one handed weapon for the Musket Master. I then shall simply say I stand by that it's a poor design decision. Though I guess the whole 6/12 GP a shot for alchemical rounds sorta makes up for it. I still don't know if I'd call it OP or anything though, since those damage numbers still don't seem so bad to me when Wizards and Clerics can do so much more.
So a gunslinger player of mine wants advanced firearms, specifically, he wishes to craft them. I think he should have to go on some kind of quest to find a gunsmith who knows how to do it first, but even so, I'm afraid the guns would be too powerful since he already wipes the floor with whatever I throw at the party.
What I want to know is, are they so overpowered? I would think their price alone would balance things out, but does it? What do you suggest I do? HE kinda built the character with the expectation of doing this
Presuming that the character has the Gunsmithing feat, I would also require at least the following:
Access to a smithy and a full alchemists' lab (zero bonus on the checks he needs to make to succeed on the attempt). The attempted invention is not only the weapons but the cartridge-based ammunition that they fire.
At least one firearm and the basic metal cartridge have to be invented. Scatter ammunition fired from metal cartridges is a seperate invention from metal cartridge bullets. If he firsts wishes to invent a shotgun, the first type of ammunition will be scatter ammunition that goes with the shotgun. If he first wishes to invent a revolver or rifle, the first type of ammunition will be regular bullets. Each of the other two advanced firearms is its own invention.
Since the WBL guidelines and the text on advanced firearms suggests that they are not normally purchasable, he needs to expend time and research materials.
Each attempt takes a month of game time in his workshop - how he acquires that is up to him. Monthly cost of living funds are going to be required, with the suggestion of the 100 gp/month "tier".
The invention requires Craft (alchemy) and Craft (blacksmith) checks made by someone with the Gunsmithing feat. The inventor cannot take 10 or take 20 as a failed attempt detonates a barrel of gunpowder in his workshop, potentially destroying his smithing and alchemical equipment. Each attempt costs 2,000 gp in raw materials, fail or succeed.
The PLAYER does not know how difficult this attempt will be, although you can forewarn him accordingly. Having the Gunsmith feat will tell him that he doesn't know how difficult the task is going to be.
Both Craft checks are against a DC of 51. Failure is as normal for a Craft check. Failure by 4 or less means that he can continue to pursue his invention during his next month of game time. Failure by 5 or more detonates the aforementioned barrel of gunpowder. Success invents the desired advanced firearm and type of metal cartridge ammunition that goes with that firearm!
And before anyone asks, it is very possible to attain a +51 Craft bonus in both skills. I leave it to doubters (if any) to figure out the method to the madness.
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By the time you hit level 5 or 6, all of the downsides are gone. Reloading as a free action, you probably have rapid shot, you probably have deadly aim, and you're now doing 3d12+dex damage+whateverelse per round to touch AC.See this is where I start to say a lot of problems that revolve around the Gunslinger come from misconceptions about the class.
Firstly, Reloading isn't free till level 11 when you get Lightning Reload. The Rapid Reload feat, only changes reloading a Firearm to a move action for a one handed, or a standard for two handed firearms(like the musket). If there is a way to make it even faster, that greatly reduces the value of the Lightning Reload feature.
Your forgetting paper cartridges that lower the reload time by one step.
So free action loading of pistols away starting whenever you have rapid shot and rapid reload.
According to the "gunsmithing" feat, you don't need checks to make guns or ammo.
The level of firearms tech the GM decides on dictates the capability of the feat. To go outside that feat is the GMs purview.