Gender / Sex Politics in the Real World


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Sovereign Court

Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:

And, for Citizen Humual's delectation, back to anti-woman America:

F+!$ing finally

At the risk of having to watch Citizen Humual gloat:

Canada does it right.

I'm not sure if there's a right or wrong absolute in this complex issue, but it is nice that the doctors and family are on the same side here. In the other story from the states I think the big issue was the quality of life for the developing fetus which I don't think is a worry here.


Shifty wrote:
Don't get me started on Dalit oppression.

Did someone say Dalek impression?


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Guy Humual wrote:
I'm not sure if there's a right or wrong absolute in this complex issue, but it is nice that the doctors and family are on the same side here. In the other story from the states I think the big issue was the quality of life for the developing fetus which I don't think is a worry here.

Can't say I followed the Texas case all that closely so I don't know if it was corroborated, but dude claimed being kept plugged in while brain-dead was against her expressed wishes. If true, keeping her alive as an incubator seems pretty near to absolutely wrong to me.

Sovereign Court

Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
I'm not sure if there's a right or wrong absolute in this complex issue, but it is nice that the doctors and family are on the same side here. In the other story from the states I think the big issue was the quality of life for the developing fetus which I don't think is a worry here.
Can't say I followed the Texas case all that closely so I don't know if it was corroborated, but dude claimed being kept plugged in while brain-dead was against her expressed wishes. If true, keeping her alive as an incubator seems pretty near to absolutely wrong to me.

Well suppose the fetus were healthy and hadn't suffered extreme oxygen deprivation, I tend to think this would have made the decision to keep her alive far more grey on the morality scale. I don't think the families decision to take her off life support was at all wrong, but I can see why, with another life in play here, the hospital was reluctant to do so. I agree it was wrong, especially seeing as the unborn child's prognoses wasn't a good one, but I can understand the waffling even though I don't support the pro-life movement.

Liberty's Edge

The hospital in Texas didn't want to remove life support because Texas passed a law saying it was illegal to do so.


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Texas: No Medicaid expansion for the indigent and living, life support for the brain-dead and pregnant.

Although, for the sake of full disclosure, NH isn't expanding Medicaid either.

Down with Obamacare!

For free, quality health care for all!

Vive le Galt!

Sovereign Court

The thing is the poor brain dead women in both cases obviously wanted to have children, they intended to carry the child to full term, but sadly they suffered brain damage that in any other era of human history would have meant death for both the mother and unborn child. The real question we have to face is when is it okay to remove someone from life support. We've had dozens of cases where people were thought to be brain dead or in unrecoverable comas but amazingly made full recoveries, but for every one of these miracles there's probably hundreds of cases were the doctors were right.

There are a couple of things at play here, first there is the woman's right to chose, and I like to think that most mothers would want doctors to do anything possible to save their child, but there's also the right to a dignified death. I remember that Terri Schiavo fiasco, the fact she didn't have a living will did compound issues, the fact that she had no way of speaking for herself and because there were to sides that believed that she wanted different things also complicated things, but I think euthanasia should be a right of the terminally ill as long as they have a voice and the cognitive ability to express these wishes, and I think people need to have living wills should something like this happen.

As for the unborn, it should be the mother that decides, the child is essentially part of her body after all, but in the situation were the mother can't decided, then the decision should fall to family. It's really not a simple cut and dry case. I think both eventually saw the correct outcomes but I really can't say that the Texas hospital was completely in the wrong in this one.

Liberty's Edge

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Yes, yes the hospital was wrong.

They weren't doing it out of concern for the fetus, or because the doctors had a different opinion on the viability of the pregnancy or the woman's chances of recovery or anything.

They did it because some d-bags in the Texas legislature decided to ratchet up things on the whole personhood tactic while simultaneously continuing to strip womens rights by making a pregnant woman nothing more than an incubator.


Guy Humual wrote:
We've had dozens of cases where people were thought to be brain dead or in unrecoverable comas but amazingly made full recoveries, but for every one of these miracles there's probably hundreds of cases were the doctors were right.

Don't conflate "brain dead" with "unrecoverable comas."

My understanding is that there are no recorded cases anywhere in the medical literature of recovery from "brain death."

Sovereign Court

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
We've had dozens of cases where people were thought to be brain dead or in unrecoverable comas but amazingly made full recoveries, but for every one of these miracles there's probably hundreds of cases were the doctors were right.

Don't conflate "brain dead" with "unrecoverable comas."

My understanding is that there are no recorded cases anywhere in the medical literature of recovery from "brain death."

I don't know, I typed brain death recovery into google and got this as the first result:

'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors

Now you could argue that he wasn't given the proper diagnosis . . . but that's pretty much how medicine works, you go to a doctor and they give you a diagnosis based on their knowledge and expertise. Sometimes doctors are wrong. That doesn't change the fact that some people are declared brain dead and yet turn out to be anything but.

Sovereign Court

Krensky wrote:

Yes, yes the hospital was wrong.

They weren't doing it out of concern for the fetus, or because the doctors had a different opinion on the viability of the pregnancy or the woman's chances of recovery or anything.

They did it because some d-bags in the Texas legislature decided to ratchet up things on the whole personhood tactic while simultaneously continuing to strip womens rights by making a pregnant woman nothing more than an incubator.

Well I can't comment on the whole politics of this case (I do realize that this is Texas though and big parts of it are pretty backwater) I can say that if I were the woman and I thought my child had a good chance of survival and a normal life that I'd have wanted them to do anything possible to save it. The two major differences in these tragic stories, this one and the one out of Canada, is that in Canada we have a fetus that has a good chance of survival and a normal life and we have family members and doctors in agreement over what the late mother would have wanted. While I think politics might have come into play here I don't think that it was entirely a political move.

Also I agree that the Texas hospital made the wrong decision and that they shouldn't have put the family through this but I really don't think this is an entirely black and white scenario.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
We've had dozens of cases where people were thought to be brain dead or in unrecoverable comas but amazingly made full recoveries, but for every one of these miracles there's probably hundreds of cases were the doctors were right.

Don't conflate "brain dead" with "unrecoverable comas."

My understanding is that there are no recorded cases anywhere in the medical literature of recovery from "brain death."

I'm pretty sure we've had at least one braindead PotUS.


Early eighties, Britishiznoid anarchist punk collective Crass make feminist album and later record joke song that...

Well, you can see for yourself.

Roughly a decade later, across the pond, young Doodlebug has his mind blown.


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Guy Humual wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Yes, yes the hospital was wrong.

They weren't doing it out of concern for the fetus, or because the doctors had a different opinion on the viability of the pregnancy or the woman's chances of recovery or anything.

They did it because some d-bags in the Texas legislature decided to ratchet up things on the whole personhood tactic while simultaneously continuing to strip womens rights by making a pregnant woman nothing more than an incubator.

Well I can't comment on the whole politics of this case (I do realize that this is Texas though and big parts of it are pretty backwater) I can say that if I were the woman and I thought my child had a good chance of survival and a normal life that I'd have wanted them to do anything possible to save it. The two major differences in these tragic stories, this one and the one out of Canada, is that in Canada we have a fetus that has a good chance of survival and a normal life and we have family members and doctors in agreement over what the late mother would have wanted. While I think politics might have come into play here I don't think that it was entirely a political move.

Also I agree that the Texas hospital made the wrong decision and that they shouldn't have put the family through this but I really don't think this is an entirely black and white scenario.

That's the UK. The U.S. probably has much, much tighter standards of what constitutes brain death. In no small part because of the massive internal movement towards trying to keep people alive for their maximum natural lifespan.

Of course, being dead doesn't stop people from getting elected; just ask Missouri about the dead senator they elected once.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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MagusJanus wrote:
Of course, being dead doesn't stop people from getting elected; just ask Missouri about the dead senator they elected once.

The other guy on the ballot was John Ashcroft. Trust me, Mel Carnahan's corpse was the better option.


Guy Humual wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
We've had dozens of cases where people were thought to be brain dead or in unrecoverable comas but amazingly made full recoveries, but for every one of these miracles there's probably hundreds of cases were the doctors were right.

Don't conflate "brain dead" with "unrecoverable comas."

My understanding is that there are no recorded cases anywhere in the medical literature of recovery from "brain death."

I don't know, I typed brain death recovery into google and got this as the first result:

'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors

Now you could argue that he wasn't given the proper diagnosis . . .

I don't need to. The article you cited (but evidently didn't read) made that point explicitly.

"Remarkably, he detected faint brain waves indicating Steven had a slim chance of recovery and medics decided to attempt to bring him out of his coma."

In other words, the medical experts acknowledge at that point that he wasn't brain dead.

That's not relevant in the Texas case. No one, not even the hospital, has ever argued that the diagnosis of brain death might be incorrect. Brain dead is dead, and no one has ever recovered from that.

Sovereign Court

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
We've had dozens of cases where people were thought to be brain dead or in unrecoverable comas but amazingly made full recoveries, but for every one of these miracles there's probably hundreds of cases were the doctors were right.

Don't conflate "brain dead" with "unrecoverable comas."

My understanding is that there are no recorded cases anywhere in the medical literature of recovery from "brain death."

I don't know, I typed brain death recovery into google and got this as the first result:

'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors

Now you could argue that he wasn't given the proper diagnosis . . .

I don't need to. The article you cited (but evidently didn't read) made that point explicitly.

"Remarkably, he detected faint brain waves indicating Steven had a slim chance of recovery and medics decided to attempt to bring him out of his coma."

In other words, the medical experts acknowledge at that point that he wasn't brain dead.

That's not relevant in the Texas case. No one, not even the hospital, has ever argued that the diagnosis of brain death might be incorrect. Brain dead is dead, and no one has ever recovered from that.

No, I read the article, but you're not getting what I'm saying. Brain dead is a diagnosis. People don't recover from brain death . . . until they do, and then they go back and review and revise the diagnosis. with another quick google I see that there's a lawsuit claiming that 1 in five "brain dead" patients are still alive. I seriously doubt that it's that high, maybe 1 in 500 is a stretch, but regardless this notion that you put forward that brain dead people don't recover is just wrong because there's plenty of examples of people that are declared brain dead recovering. What you're arguing is that when someone has the correct diagnosis of brain death they never recover, which would only be a useful distinction if there weren't so many discrepancies and misdiagnoses, and medicine is full of discrepancies and misdiagnoses. Also remember that if the family from the article I cited had listened to those first four doctors brain death would have been the correct diagnosis because they would have removed him from life support and taken his organs for transplants. There's a reason why people are told to get a second opinion.


Guy Hummual wrote:
with another quick google I see that there's a lawsuit claiming that 1 in five "brain dead" patients are still alive.

Equivocation. The article says that 1 in 5 brain dead patients are ALIVE, that is they have a heart beat. Your argument is that the patients are diagnosed as "brain dead" but are not brain dead. ENORMOUS difference.

Sovereign Court

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Guy Hummual wrote:
with another quick google I see that there's a lawsuit claiming that 1 in five "brain dead" patients are still alive.

Equivocation. The article says that 1 in 5 brain dead patients are ALIVE, that is they have a heart beat. Your argument is that the patients are diagnosed as "brain dead" but are not brain dead. ENORMOUS difference.

No, brain dead, from a medical stand point, is completely equal to death. This is maybe one of the reasons there's reluctance to pull the plug so to speak because people hear brain dead and think "That's not completely dead", but from a medical stand point it's the same.

Another thing I should point out, and it's the point of that article, is that brain death is very useful for saving other people's lives because brain dead individuals often have otherwise healthy organs for transplants. What this lawsuit claims is that doctors are too quick to diagnose brain death so they can harvest the body.


Equivocation. You are swapping your definition of alive with the articles, still.

Here

, said the scientific literature does not support the criteria for ‘brain death’ and ‘cardiac death’ as being real death. “Although it may be ethical to remove vital organs from these patients, we believe that the reason it is ethical cannot convincingly be that the donors are dead,” the article said.

Sovereign Court

From wikipedia: "Brain death is used as an indicator of legal death in many jurisdictions, but it is defined inconsistently. Various parts of the brain may keep living when others die, and the term "brain death" has been used to refer to various combinations. For example, although a major medical dictionary says that "brain death" is synonymous with "cerebral death" (death of the cerebrum), the US National Library of Medicine Medical Subject Headings (MeSH) system defines brain death as including the brainstem. The distinctions can be important because, for example, in someone with a dead cerebrum but a living brainstem, the heartbeat and ventilation can continue unaided, whereas, in whole-brain death, only life support equipment would keep those functions going."

As you can see it's perfectly possible to be breathing and have a heartbeat, which is one of the definitions of being alive, and still be declared brain dead. What you're quibbling about is the definition of death. With today's technology you can keep someone that's brain dead on life support for a very long time . . . but they're almost certainly never going to recover, unless as I said earlier, they were misdiagnosed.


Big Controversy Sweeps Facebook and Feminists

Confession time:

I don't think I have ever voluntarily listened to a Beyonce song. Until recently, I'm not sure I had ever heard a Beyonce song.

That has changed.

Another confession:

I had never seen What's Love Got To Do With It?

So, woah, Jay-Z, wtf?!?

Also, OHWFA!!!

Also, I don't care what anyone says, I still like Woody Allen.

Sovereign Court

This is my favorite Beyonce song.


China's Female Millionaires are in a Matchmaking Frenzy

Kinda old, but still fascinating.


More Beyoncé

On the one hand, it's a silly, failed, copy of M.I.A.

Otoh, OHWFA!


Guy Humual wrote:
This is my favorite Beyonce song.

OHWFA!

Sovereign Court

Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
This is my favorite Beyonce song.
OHWFA!

I prefer the version I posted. And since this is a thread about Gender and politics I suppose I should say something about the lyrics:

"Cause if you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Don't be mad once you see that he want it
'Cause if you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it"

To me that sounds like Beyonce is calling herself an "it" and dehumanizing herself, not to mention suggesting ownership through marriage. Later are the lines:

"I need no permission, did I mention
Don't pay him any attention
'Cause you had your turn, and now you gonna learn
What it really feels like to miss me"

And although I like the line "I need no permission", but later in the verse she adds "(be)cause you had your turn" suggesting that rather then being a free willed being capable of doing whatever she wants that she's only free to make her own choices now because she's broken up with her man. Anyways I do like the limited freedom the song promotes, that pining over a man that's unwilling to commit is foolish, but the rest of the song seems to promote ugly gender stereotypes. But maybe that's just me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It's not just you.


So, I forget what it's called when a couple makes a list of the people that each partner are allowed to "cheat" with, but, as of yesterday, my local comrades' list goes:

Her: Sexy Putin

Him: The Female Fighters of Kurdistan


Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:

More Beyoncé

On the one hand, it's a silly, failed, copy of M.I.A.

Otoh, OHWFA!

MIA tho. Now THATS a woman.


I think men need their own human nature song aimed at society.

Madonna - Human Nature:

And I'm not sorry (I'm not sorry)
It's human nature (it's human nature)
And I'm not sorry (I'm not sorry)
I'm not your b~&+$ don't hang your s*** on me (it's human nature)

You wouldn't let me say the words I longed to say
You didn't want to see life through my eyes
(Express yourself, don't repress yourself)
You tried to shove me back inside your narrow room
And silence me with bitterness and lies
(Express yourself, don't repress yourself)

Did I say something wrong?
Oops, I didn't know I couldn't talk about sex
(I musta been crazy)
Did I stay too long?
Oops, I didn't know I couldn't speak my mind
(What was I thinking)

[chorus]

You punished me for telling you my fantasies
I'm breakin' all the rules I didn't make
(Express yourself, don't repress yourself)
You took my words and made a tract for silly fools
You held me down and tried to make me break
(Express yourself, don't repress yourself)

[Bridge:]

Did I say something true?
Oops, I didn't know I couldn't talk about sex
(I musta been crazy)
Did I have a point of view?
Oops, I didn't know I couldn't talk about you
(What was I thinking)

Oh and marriage is an insane thing. The only societies in which they would last is one where status was dependent on it(religion) or where it was necessary for one of the partners to be protected from(chaos) bandits, rapists, etc.. If you are friends, stay friends. If you are bed buddies, stay bed buddies. Don't expect your bed buddies to otherwise get along with you and don't expect your friends to excite you in bed. Read Plutarch's "Lycurgus" to see how the Spartans did it, much more efficiently than this obsolete tool we use now. I do peoples taxes for a living and I get to see the definition of insanity. Always some reliable and responsible person making babies and marrying someone quite the opposite expecting them to change. Maybe I'm jaded because my mother is on her fifth husband, by grandma had three back in the day and almost every married person I know is trying to mask their misery or drown it.


Solid Gold Clit

Liberty's Edge

That sounds uncomfortable.


The Trial That Unleashed Hysteria Over Child Abuse--McMartin Preschool: Anatomy of a Panic


Gender and Caste Discrimination: Apartheid in ‘New’ India by GRAHAM PEEBLES


Turtle Love


Was enjoying that video in Gamer Talk of the nude woman writhing in d20s and I realized that I never took a Womans Studies course, so I don't understand "objectification" theory. Like, at all.

So, I looked it up on wikipedia and found that there are quite a few views on it from a variety of feminist perspectives. (I, of course, am not a feminist.)

I'm sure I'll have hours of fun looking all these people up:

"While the concept of sexual objectification is important within feminist theory, ideas vary widely on what constitutes sexual objectification and what are the ethical implications of such objectification. Some feminists such as Naomi Wolf find the concept of physical attractiveness itself to be problematic,[33] with some radical feminists being opposed to any evaluation of another person's sexual attractiveness based on physical characteristics. John Stoltenberg goes so far as to condemn as wrongfully objectifying any sexual fantasy that involves visualization of a woman.[34]

"Radical feminists view objectification as playing a central role in reducing women to what they refer to as the 'sex class'. While some feminists view mass media in societies that they argue are patriarchal to be objectifying, they often focus on pornography as playing an egregious role in habituating men to objectify women.[35] Other feminists, particularly those identified with sex-positive feminism, take a different view of sexual objectification and see it as a problem when it is not counterbalanced by women's sense of their own sexual subjectivity.[citation needed]

"Some social conservatives have taken up aspects of the feminist critique of sexual objectification. In their view however, the increase in the sexual objectification of both sexes in Western culture is one of the negative legacies of the sexual revolution.[36][37][38][39][40] These critics, notably Wendy Shalit, advocate a return to pre-sexual revolution standards of sexual morality, which Shalit refers to as a 'return to modesty', as an antidote to sexual objectification.[37][41]

"Others contest feminist claims about the objectification of women. Camille Paglia holds that 'Turning people into sex objects is one of the specialties of our species.' In her view, objectification is closely tied to (and may even be identical with) the highest human faculties toward conceptualization and aesthetics.[42] Individualist feminist Wendy McElroy says, given that 'objectification' of women means to make women into sexual objects; it is meaningless because, 'sexual objects', taken literally, means nothing because inanimate objects do not have sexuality. She continues that women are their bodies as well as their minds and souls, and so focusing on a single aspect should not be 'degrading'.[43]"

Sexual objectification


A FEMINIST OVERVIEW OF PORNOGRAPHY, ENDING IN A DEFENSE THEREOF by Wendy McElroy


Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
Individualist feminist Wendy McElroy says, given that 'objectification' of women means to make women into sexual objects; it is meaningless because, 'sexual objects', taken literally, means nothing because inanimate objects do not have sexuality.

I found that statement to completely misrepresent the English construction of the phrase. "Utilitarian object" doesn't represent the object's desires or modes of thoughts, it expresses the human interpretation of the objects purpose and usefulness. Saying something is a "sexual object" is not an expression of the object's desires, but rather an imposition by the speaker of their interpretation onto the object (or a description of someone's interpretation more often in this case).

Literally, it would mean an object used for sex. There are inanimate objects used for sex.

As for porn, I'm of the mind that context matters. In a free and equal society, pornography wouldn't be a big deal. I think the industry itself has probably improved quite a bit, particularly with the advent of the internet. It hasn't been exactly a great equalizer, but it has forced some of the larger companies to treat their employees better, if they don't, they can just start a website and make money on their own, though this mostly applies to more established performers.

Slut shaming is still a real thing and female porn stars aren't really taken seriously outside of the porn industry. Though it's harder and harder, many still try to conceal their profession from family. Using fake names and concealing identity as much as possible is the norm.

Of course people choose to go into porn. Young kids with only a high school diploma and no job experience don't exactly have a lot of opportunities to make several thousand dollars a week. You offer enough money, you'll get people to do just about anything, regardless of the consequences to them.


Irontruth wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:
Individualist feminist Wendy McElroy says, given that 'objectification' of women means to make women into sexual objects; it is meaningless because, 'sexual objects', taken literally, means nothing because inanimate objects do not have sexuality.

I found that statement to completely misrepresent the English construction of the phrase. "Utilitarian object" doesn't represent the object's desires or modes of thoughts, it expresses the human interpretation of the objects purpose and usefulness. Saying something is a "sexual object" is not an expression of the object's desires, but rather an imposition by the speaker of their interpretation onto the object (or a description of someone's interpretation more often in this case).

Literally, it would mean an object used for sex. There are inanimate objects used for sex.

As for porn, I'm of the mind that context matters. In a free and equal society, pornography wouldn't be a big deal. I think the industry itself has probably improved quite a bit, particularly with the advent of the internet. It hasn't been exactly a great equalizer, but it has forced some of the larger companies to treat their employees better, if they don't, they can just start a website and make money on their own, though this mostly applies to more established performers.

Slut shaming is still a real thing and female porn stars aren't really taken seriously outside of the porn industry. Though it's harder and harder, many still try to conceal their profession from family. Using fake names and concealing identity as much as possible is the norm.

Of course people choose to go into porn. Young kids with only a high school diploma and no job experience don't exactly have a lot of opportunities to make several thousand dollars a week. You offer enough money, you'll get people to do just about anything, regardless of the consequences to them.

Fify

Sczarni

Wikipedia wrote:
"While the concept of sexual objectification is important within feminist theory, ideas vary widely on what constitutes sexual objectification and what are the ethical implications of such objectification. Some feminists such as Naomi Wolf find the concept of physical attractiveness itself to be problematic,[33] with some radical feminists being opposed to any evaluation of another person's sexual attractiveness based on physical characteristics. John Stoltenberg goes so far as to condemn as wrongfully objectifying any sexual fantasy that involves visualization of a woman.[34]"

See, I identify as a "feminist" pretty much. Insofar as I believe in equal rights, lack of cultural sexual dimorphism, and the right for people to choose what happens to their bodies.

But really? Attraction to others based on physical appearance is ethically wrong? Fantasy with visual imagery of women is wrong?

Who are these people? And how do they expect a sexually reproducing species to propagate if these ethical concepts are applied?


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psionichamster wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:
"While the concept of sexual objectification is important within feminist theory, ideas vary widely on what constitutes sexual objectification and what are the ethical implications of such objectification. Some feminists such as Naomi Wolf find the concept of physical attractiveness itself to be problematic,[33] with some radical feminists being opposed to any evaluation of another person's sexual attractiveness based on physical characteristics. John Stoltenberg goes so far as to condemn as wrongfully objectifying any sexual fantasy that involves visualization of a woman.[34]"

See, I identify as a "feminist" pretty much. Insofar as I believe in equal rights, lack of cultural sexual dimorphism, and the right for people to choose what happens to their bodies.

But really? Attraction to others based on physical appearance is ethically wrong? Fantasy with visual imagery of women is wrong?

Who are these people? And how do they expect a sexually reproducing species to propagate if these ethical concepts are applied?

These are the crazy theoretical extremes that make people not want to be identified as "feminists" despite agreeing with all the basic mainstream feminist ideas.

Quote:
feminism = the radical idea that women are people.


What exactly is cultural sexual dimorphism?


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I'm guessing that the whole attracted to beauty is morally wrong crowd is made up of ... how shall I put it ... aesthetically challenged individuals.

The Exchange

pres man wrote:
I'm guessing that the whole attracted to beauty is morally wrong crowd is made up of ... how shall I put it ... aesthetically challenged individuals.

Reminds me of a George Carlin line....

Sczarni

BigNorseWolf wrote:
What exactly is cultural sexual dimorphism?

My impression of the idea that there are assigned, distinct, mutually exclusive "female" & "male" cultural roles.

Borrowing from the biological to describe text sociological.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
What exactly is cultural sexual dimorphism?

From Swinging Single: Representing Sexuality in the 1960s, "The new sexuality is regulated, in part, by the articulation of a cultural sexual dimorphism, in which masculine and feminine remain distinct categories."

Basically, culture is learned -- and there's no reason, in theory, that any particular sphere or type of learning should be restricted to men, or to women. No physical barrier or obstruction keeps women from learning how to fly helicopters or men from learning how to bake wedding cakes.

The barrier that keeps women from flying helicopters (90% of Army helicopter pilots are men) is therefore cultural.


pres man wrote:
I'm guessing that the whole attracted to beauty is morally wrong crowd is made up of ... how shall I put it ... aesthetically challenged individuals.

Naomi Wolf was/is (depending on how much you like women in their 50s) actually pretty hawt.

Link

In the same book that she put forward the extreme position that beauty is problematic, she also put forward the theory that looking at skinny models in Cosmo or whatever cause anorexia.

Whether that's extreme feminism or basic feminism I'll let the people who've already admitted they've never read a feminist book but know all about it decide.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

The barrier that keeps women from flying helicopters (90% of Army helicopter pilots are men) is therefore cultural.

The Night Witches


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Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:


Whether that's extreme feminism or basic feminism I'll let the people who've already admitted they've never read a feminist book but know all about it decide.

The problem is that people latch onto stuff like this and use that as argument to dismiss all feminism as just crazy man-hating.

I freely admit I don't know all about it and I don't really care much about the theory. I'll still call myself a feminist.

Quote:
feminism = the radical idea that women are people.

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