Guys tend to be Beefcake, like the dude on the second cover you linked, but male cheesecake could exist I suppose . . . I'm not sure I've ever seen it though.
I'm not sure that a guy in what mounts to a leather S&M harness with a beard and fancy knee-high boots counts as much more than this
Beefcake and Cheesecake is the same cake.
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Hopefully we can stay civil so we don't wind up having an explosion like the last thread about these videos. I haven't been bringing them up because it seems like most public forums can't discuss them at all.
Beefcake and Cheesecake is the same cake.
Not really.
Speaking as a woman who is not really into dudes... my credibility is kind of crushed here. :P But there is a huge difference between cheesecake and "beefcake" how it is presented in the gaming industry.
Sexy women are there for gratification of the (ostensibly male) viewer. Buff, strong, heroic men are ALSO there for the gratification of the (ostensibly male) viewer. The hot chick is the sex appeal, while the buff guy is the hero fantasy. You obtain the girl (hence the objectification), while you become the buff guy (hence why it's not objectified - you have volition and action).
If it was the same thing as cheesecake but targeted at the female gaze, you would have much different looking dudes than the stock-standard edgy-looking buff white guys with a stubbly beard we see in every freaking game. The poses would be different, the framing of the imagery would be different. Have a look at real beefcake targeted at women (I am thinking of, for example, promotional pictures of various bands/actors/etc that you might see in a magazine)... it is totally, totally different. For one, I suspect they would be less "buff muscular dudes" than most vidya gaem heroes tend to be. But I'm not going to pretend I know what straight girls are into. :P
There's nothing wrong with hero fantasies and there's nothing wrong with sex appeal, but there IS something wrong with only heterosexual men being able to enjoy the full spectrum of that.
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I do like cheesecake but if we're talking covers of books and games, cheesecake doesn't make me think that I'd be playing a female character, rather it makes me think that I'll play the male character and the female on the cover is my 'reward'.
Except on the EQ covers its pretty clear the chica isn't the rewards, she's the party leader. Same with the EQ2 covers.
I just don't think the cheesecake/beefcake concept holds a lot of water, as the guys roaming around presented as 'beefcake' are almost entirely muscle-porn cheesecake - power pose? The guy looks like an S&M muscle bear with xena boots dual wielding strangely phallic objects - its so outrageously camp.
Anytime we mention 'powerful muscular bodies' it sounds like the next line will involve Turkish Wrestling (its the one with oil and leather pants).
It does seem counter intuitive but who would you rather be, Justin Bieber or Hulk Hogan? Now remember that the Biebs is very popular with the ladies and Teenybopper and the Hulk was extremely popular with young men when I was growing up.
It's not that counter-intuitive.
Biebs, if you are into ladies, and Hulk Hogan if you like tall well built heavily moustachioed men who like to get into small outfits whilst oiled up and inflict BDSM like moves on other like men and pin them on the ground until they submit to your domination - whilst knowing full well its not even real combat but a muscle porn show, watched by people that are claiming to be totally hetero yet oddly watching this CAAAAAAAAMP pantomime.
So yeah, I'll go with the more macho Biebs and his brazilian hooker exports every single day if thats the shoot out.
As a young dude back in the day I was always a bit odded out by the guys (ie Van Damme) getting his kit off in anything other than a legit scene and for a legit reason, and we always put it down to impressing the ladies or something. Wasn't done for our benefit.
Anyhow, roll on more EQ covers, where eveything is beefy-cheesecake and where you annoy that lady on the cover and she will just wreck you in moments, long live Firiona Vie (that's her name, and shes uber)
hehe, I don't think seeing Van Damme's naked butt is for the male viewer, but I doubt his action films would have been as popular if he was built like the Biebs.
I'd agree, but then we can't explain away Tom Cruise, then again, he was pretty popular with the guys in manly buddy-films like 'Top Gun' (come on really boys?) and oiling up semi naked to play Volleyball with Val, when they weren't in steamy shower rooms wearing only towels and slinging heavily laden comments to each other.
I'm not saying that you're wrong about wrestling but it is weird that it's extremely popular amongst men . . . many of whom probably don't identify as gay
Not openly identifying no, however for someone who might just be 'curious' or uncomfortable about their mixed feelings, sitting down watching the Wrestling sounds like a totally legit and unquestionable passtime - it has an 'acceptable veneer', whilst being really campy. Don't get me wrong, it has some funny theatre and in the 80's we were a little naive (but the dudes were not as 'polished') but by the 90's it was pretty clear cut.
Like how in the 80's all the hard core homophobic metal guys were happy to say how much they hated gays whilst on their walls and t-shirts we had Judas Priest images, and so yeah, I take beefcheesecake as being 'not quite the story we are led to believe', and indeed, I find most of the arguments about it lack punch because the thinking behind a lot of the debate is heavily flawed and miss a lot of what is actually going on. So I don't take too much concern on how people openly identify, I look to their behaviour if I am interested.
For the record, I watched wrestling in the 80's - when I was young and dumb enough to think it was 'real' (like Santa and the Easterbunny) and I quite liked Judas Priest (but I knew a duck when I saw it).
Male cheesecake? How about Dante, from Devil May Cry? He's not particularly roidy, he doesn't have a beard or any very manly facial lines. Is he meant to be the reward to the males playing the game, then, or are we talking "you can be this guy, imagine how popular you'll be with the ladies"?
Male cheesecake? How about Dante, from Devil May Cry? He's not particularly roidy, he doesn't have a beard or any very manly facial lines. Is he meant to be the reward to the males playing the game, then, or are we talking "you can be this guy, imagine how popular you'll be with the ladies"?
Perhaps both.
On one hand he's rocking the boyish charm for the ladies (he can be your boy-toy) and on the other hand he's kicking it out in leather fetish wear nice Chaps.
The lines are blurry, there is no 'cheesecake' or 'beefcake' except to the minority who still try push things into set camps - its cheesybeefcake, there is no continuum, only subjective viewpoints.
Cheefcake.
Cheesesteak?
I like both of those suggestions :P
Cheefcake and Cheesesteak are great!
I don't know about beesecake, though. Feels vaguely dirty.
I don't know about beesecake, though. Feels vaguely dirty.
Which may have its own appeal.
Admittedly.
I think her point about the Ms Male is a different one from the beefcake/cheesecake discussion. Her point seemed to be that when you needed a female identifier for something that was anthropomorphised or unseen like in an FPS, then the fallback on stereotype ends up solely identifying the female character. She talks about (for example) how all the Koopa's art from Mario Bros. reflects personality traits, but the only defining characteristic of the female one is that she looks like the others with a bow and a pastel color palette.
I do agree with someone above (was it you Guy?) that pointed out that I'm not sure doing more than adding a bow was possible with Ms Packman. Like all of her videos, I tend to agree with a lot, and disagree with some, but they are always worth thinking about.
On two side notes: I intend to work cheesesteak into my regular vocabulary now, and Guy, if your party needs a guide/distraction through the lair of the nymphomaniacs, I'll sacrifice myself. I know, I know. People throw around the word hero, but I'm just a guy who sees a job that needs done.
OHFWA.
OHWFA!
[Wishes the wicked hairy chest look from Mr. Shifty's link above would become attractive with the ladeez and not just the gay dudes.]
OHWFA!
[Wishes the wicked hairy chest look from Mr. Shifty's link above would become attractive with the ladeez and not just the gay dudes.]
That look has been around for a very long time, and sadly, is yet to strike a chord with the ladeez - just the lads.
On another note:
75 Of The Most Popular Films Of 1980-1995
Seems 'ordinary' was the thing most people related to.
Its interesting how little beefcake OR cheesecake is evident in the maintsream popular films. Not too many quasi nekkid women around on covers being objectified, and apart from Rocky, the beef is all covered up and distinctly NOT powerposey... except Arnie, in leather, with his chest out. But it's Arnie and we know about him.
Guy... yeah Sean Connery... I guess there's women who like hirsute hair-suits too. Maybe its the exception, along with Tom Selleck.
OHWFA!
Anita just got kicked aside, my new pin-up is here
More guts than Anita too.
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Shawn Connery was pretty popular with the ladies, and he looked like he was wearing a brown wool sweater with his shirt off.
Sure, but when he does a shower scene there's not a bit of hair on him!
Sure, but when he does a shower scene there's not a bit of hair on him!
Wow, gratuitous nudity! NSFW!
I was trying to find the scene from You Only Live Twice in which the Japanese girls were going ga-ga over Sean's sweater and the quip about empty nests, but I couldn't find it.
I did once have a young woman, in the throes of passion, call me her teddy bear, which, years later, is giving me goblin-sized erections.
Be back in a bit...
but the disturbing thing is Anita got death and rape threats.
Being fair, she got death and rape threats ON YouTube, and on the internet. I have gotten both death and rape threats for saying mildly unkind things about entertainers on YouTube. Getting a death threat on YouTube is about as rare as getting a warm hello from an octogenarian at WalMart; it only means you've posted on YouTube.
goblin-sized erections.
I wouldn't be advertising that, bud.
While our diminutive stature does, indeed, mean our genitalia is size Small, I'll have you know (and, more importantly, I'll have the ladeez know) that our +4 Dex bonus makes us cunning cunnilinguists.
Goblins use what they've got to get what they want--in the streets!
I prefer lady on the streets, freak in the sheets, not the reverse.
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It's okay if you want your ladies in the streets and your freaks in your sheets. Really. We're not judging you.
So, going back a little bit to the beefcake/cheesecake discussion, I think a good example of male cheesecake would be shoujo manga and anime. Tuxedo Mask from Sailor Moon, all of the guys from Revolutionary Girl Utena, Fruits Basket. Japan has explored the pretty boy quite a bit.
So, going back a little bit to the beefcake/cheesecake discussion, I think a good example of male cheesecake would be shoujo manga and anime. Tuxedo Mask from Sailor Moon, all of the guys from Revolutionary Girl Utena, Fruits Basket. Japan has explored the pretty boy quite a bit.
I don't think I would call those male cheesecake... more like lambcake. Male cheesecake would be some uke poses on the cover of yaoi mangas.
[Strikes a beefcake pose]
I'll take my ladeez and/or freaks wherever I can get them.
All of the cake is a lie.
The cake isn't a lie!!! It's not true!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Yaoi is written (mainly) by girls for girls. Bara (much more porny) is the one written by men for men and the one with massive amounts of beefcake.
but the disturbing thing is Anita got death and rape threats.Being fair, she got death and rape threats ON YouTube, and on the internet. I have gotten both death and rape threats for saying mildly unkind things about entertainers on YouTube. Getting a death threat on YouTube is about as rare as getting a warm hello from an octogenarian at WalMart; it only means you've posted on YouTube.I've never gotten death or rape threats and I comment on videos all the time.
To my knowledge Anita didn't get these threats over YouTube, although I'm sure those are out there, she got these threats over on kickstarter.
From what I understand, you can only comment on a Kickstarter campaign if you've contributed so...
I dunno, I could be wrong, or it could be a setting that varies from campaign to campaign, but I know I've been prevented from commenting on campaigns I'm not involved in.
Society gives women a glass ceiling and a safety net and they rail against it.
Society gives men an open sky above and sharp rocks below and they revel in it.
People are strange.
I've never gotten death or rape threats and I comment on videos all the time.
Go find some 1D or Biebs youtube offerigns and post something attacking them, preferrably saying something like 'Justin loves the D' and see what happens. Will look like this or worse.
It was the "backlash" that put her in the spot light and it's that backlash that's keeping her there.
No its not. Its her pretty face and people pretending that random internet threats from 12 year olds are 'legitimate threats of death and harm' that keep her there.
Has ANYTHING happened to her in real life? Do we have so much as someone making a rude finger gesture so far?
If anything the martyr approach she seems to take makes me take the rest of what she says with a grain of salt - if you so heavily overreact to numpty comments on Youtube then I wonder through what prism you are regarding the rest of arguments.
]Why? I got nothing against either the Biebs or that band. I can't call myself a fan of their music but I don't hate them.
Oh not slighting either band at all, just offering you some chum to throw in the water for the show.
You seemed to feel that despite posting on Youtube you hadn't received rape or death threats, I was just helping you out with a way to change that, and to get a first hand understanding of how commonly those threats are thrown around liberally all day every day - and that Anita getting them is hardly a noteworthy (or career cementing) issue.