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Maiden, Mother, Crone (GM Reference)


Reign of Winter

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Paizo Employee Digital Products Assistant

GM Reference thread for Maiden, Mother, Crone.


First! Can't wait for this installment!

Ruyan.


Oh my glob! Artwork! LINK

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

A nice adventure! Personally I preferred "The Shackled Hut"! But I enjoyed reading this too, I like how the threefold dungeon is populated with different character and how the "warden" behave differently in the different "statues", I would have liked a -"what the npc that you previously met that could have followed you would do" sidebar- but as a gm I will make up something! Really liked the new monsters too. Can't wait to see the rest of this ap! So far it's my favourite one!


Quote:
Oh my glob! Artwork!

Mh, really cool, but not what I imagined when I read about it in AP #33 where it talks about three mesas into which the 3 images have been cut into the cliff sides and are "visible from many Iobarian cliffs despite the distance." [AP #33]

This, for me, is too much of LotR put into it--but still cool, don't get me wrong.

Ruyan.

PS: Still waiting for my PDF *sad face*


So 2 questions about the Kokogiak...

1. It doesn't list the pull distance of the bite attack : bite +23 (2d6+10 plus pull).

2. I'm not familiar with how multiple reach ranges work with full attack and pull. On full attack can the bite get someone at 20ft, pull the target into 10ft range, then hit with the 6 claws all on one round?

Also I'm slightly sad it wasn't worked into the adventure itself, but I'm definitely adding it in as a random encounter cause it's too amazing to pass up.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
RuyanVe wrote:
Quote:
Oh my glob! Artwork!

Mh, really cool, but not what I imagined when I read about it in AP #33 where it talks about three mesas into which the 3 images have been cut into the cliff sides and are "visible from many Iobarian cliffs despite the distance." [AP #33]

This, for me, is too much of LotR put into it--but still cool, don't get me wrong.

Ruyan.

PS: Still waiting for my PDF *sad face*

Infact in the adventure the three "statues" are described as far one from the other unlike in the image where they are shown near (and the map where there's only one mark -I presume where the maiden statue is).

But we must say that seeing them one next to the other is really cool.

Paizo Employee Developer

Ataraxias wrote:


Also I'm slightly sad it wasn't worked into the adventure itself, but I'm definitely adding it in as a random encounter cause it's too amazing to pass up.

Would it make you happy to know that a kokogiak does appear a little later on in one of the adventures? :)

Paizo Employee Developer

Ataraxias wrote:

So 2 questions about the Kokogiak...

1. It doesn't list the pull distance of the bite attack : bite +23 (2d6+10 plus pull).

2. I'm not familiar with how multiple reach ranges work with full attack and pull. On full attack can the bite get someone at 20ft, pull the target into 10ft range, then hit with the 6 claws all on one round?

Also I'm slightly sad it wasn't worked into the adventure itself, but I'm definitely adding it in as a random encounter cause it's too amazing to pass up.

1. Its pull distance is 10 ft. It's listed in Special Attacks two lines under the melee line.

2. Yup. Pretty brutal.


Ah, Thanks! Completely glossed over the special attacks line.

Also Kokogiaks and space dragons in one adventure? oh boy!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Maybe it's just that my brain is drained from work, but I must admit I'm confused about one of the encounters in the START of the adventure, with the animate dream.

Spoiler:
Does the Dream start out Hostile? Or is it Indifferent and then when asked questions it becomes hostile and attacks? And what happens when the party defends themselves and it dies before they can figure out its desire? Does it re-animate and go through this all over again?

This encounter just seems vague and could be expanded upon just a tad. ^^;;

Paizo Employee Developer

It is essentially hostile, though its initial attitude is not specifically mentioned, as Diplomacy is not really useful in this situation. This is why the PCs have to trick it into revealing its desires using Bluff, likely while fighting it.

That being said, how the encounter plays out can be adjusted by individual GMs. If you want the Witchdaughter's Nightmare to not attack on sight and give the PCs a chance to interact with it first, that's fine, but as the PCs press it with more question, it would certainly become more hostile and eventually attack.

As to what happens if the PCs kill it before they learn its desire, no it does not reanimate. It is a creature, and if slain, it dies. But the raven Tryva has told the PCs they need to find out its desires; part of the challenge of the encounter is learning that information before killing it. If the PCs fail to do so, it's pretty much their own fault.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I really have to say, I feel like the ball was dropped, and possibly rolled over a few state lines in the process, on this one. It's pretty much a giant dungeon crawl with several wierd encounters. It is interesting to me that the entire dungeon they are talking to this warden, possibly resulting in friendly communications, and then they get attacked on multiple occasions as soon as she leaves. If I was a player in this dungeon, pretty sure I'd take a "kill first, ask questions later" stance about twenty steps into the dungeon. This dungeon would make tons more sense if the warden had lost to the coven, her power usurped, and the guardians of the dungeon turned to the covens will, with the warden, being connected to it inherently, using her abilities from her prison to communicate to the players through a series of triggered programmed images that activate when one of the riders enters certain locations. Just my thoughts.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

HOARPANTHER ZOMBIE p. 47

missing Will save value


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have to agree with Haskul. I didn't get the same feeling of enjoyment perusing this module as I did with the first two. That said, I do rather like his idea of having the coven having imprisoned the Warden... and are striving to transform her into a Hag. This could even allow for Marislova to be trapped in that chamber BY Jadrenka to keep her safe and Marislova wanting to save her lover. The encounters with Jadrenka could even be revamped as illusions or sendings or the like, with Jadrenka forced NOT to ask for help (lest she lose the Ring as a result of admitting weakness and not being in control).

Fortunately, it will be some time before my tabletop group reaches this point (seeing that they're starting the RoW campaign in two weeks - I had to wrap up the previous adventure they were on and am just going to up the difficulty of early encounters to compensate for their higher levels) so I could very likely find a means of revamping the module.

And truth be told? There is little to be lost in having most of the dungeon being under the Hags' control. It may even explain why those chosen by Baba Yaga's Black Rider are in fact being attacked by Baba Yaga's allies - they've turned against Baba Yaga as well.


The suggestion while sensible, just seems too sensible for this book. The entire book is laden with cryptic riddles and trust quandaries.

Would your players have reason to trust the raven oracles?
The centaur tribe?
The Witch Tree?
Assuming you're playing in the order described, you may actually be inclined to side with Caigreal anyways since you meet her before Jadrenka.

I mean even in your "home" the dancing hut you have Ratibor who can potentially kill you, and even if you help him leave the hut he betrays you at the first opportunity.

Having Jadrenka's situation set so straightforward just doesn't jive with the rest of the book.

And its not really a stretch that any of Baba Yaga's allies would attack you. You lack his knowledge, his strength, pretty much anything that even identifies you. All they might get is that you have his aura, and that could mean anything, did your PCs murder him and bathed in his blood?

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Frost-Thunder Hammer p. 61

This has Requirements Craft Magic Weapons but there is no such feat


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So what you're saying, Ataraxias, is that the theme of Book 3 is "Trust No One?" Too bad we didn't have Mulder and Scully trapped in a cell. ;)

That said, I disagree with you about Jadrenka's situation being "straightforward." If she is not allowed to state she is imprisoned (lest she thus lose the Ring due to her "admitting weakness" - and yes, this is an adaptation from how she'd normally lose the ring (which is "directly helping the PCs)) then the party may very well not know what's going on.

Even with Marislova wanting to save Jadrenka, we still wouldn't know everything. It could be Marislova doesn't know any details, just that Jadrenka locked her into the room to keep her safe without telling her what she was being kept safe FROM.

Likewise, the diplomacy checks and the like could remain as the more hostile Jadrenka is toward the party, the more manipulative she becomes. It's not a matter of "save the maiden in the tower" but instead trying to solve the mystery of what is going on in the three statues while fighting foes that should not be fighting them otherwise.

Of course, the drawback is that if Jadrenka isn't a potential active enemy of the group, then they'll never get to wear her ring. I'm not exactly sure that is a bad thing, however. ;)

Paizo Employee Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
chopswil wrote:

HOARPANTHER ZOMBIE p. 47

missing Will save value

Not sure where that went, but it should be Will +4.


I can see how your approach would work and of course it depends on your group, it just sounds unnecessary for my group at least.

I can tell that after going through the trials in the hut, that they'll be on a "everything is a test!" mode which should play right into it as written.

BTW the ring becomes relatively ordinary if you leave Artosa with it so it's not too bad if the PCs get it.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I was reading the the Kostchtchie article. I found the summon mosnter list which I have a big interest in.

I was curious what happens when you give the Ice Elementals (which normally are vulnerable to fire) the fiendish template which give the creature resist fire 5 or 10 or 15.

I have the same question when it comes to giving the Half-Fiend template to the Yeti. In addition, would the half-fiend favored stats for the summon monster be Str, Dex, and Con or would it be some other combination?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Baba's "allies" may only be such because she's stronger than them - they may prefer she remain imprisoned/dead and claim the power for her.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

On first read, I think I'm going to change Marislova around when I read it. Drop one of the hand axes and give him an Aldori dueling sword. Just to see if players realize that kind of sword did not originate in Brevoy.

Depending on audience maturity, changing Marislova back to a guy might be part of his 'tests' to prove her fidelity. "Kryisjana loves you, eh? Let's see if she loves you like *this*!" zot

Spoiler:
In reading it, I did wonder if Maris would have made 'his' choice if not in Artrosa. Gender issues aside, I kind of like that the gender change was made as a result of comfort, and doesn't affect the 'love you no matter how you are' aspect. Heck from the other end, depending on where they are, the other half of the couple is young, pregnant, or old, showing the 'meat doesn't matter'.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

xevious573 wrote:

I was reading the the Kostchtchie article. I found the summon mosnter list which I have a big interest in.

I was curious what happens when you give the Ice Elementals (which normally are vulnerable to fire) the fiendish template which give the creature resist fire 5 or 10 or 15.

I have the same question when it comes to giving the Half-Fiend template to the Yeti. In addition, would the half-fiend favored stats for the summon monster be Str, Dex, and Con or would it be some other combination?

It's my understanding that the fire resistance would come first.

So, if the creature is of the cold type, and gets fire resistance 10...

Fireball hits for 60 points of damage.

  • Save goes first, let's say he saves for half, so that's 30 points
  • Fire resistance comes next. So the 30 goes to 20
  • Fire vulnerability kicks in, multiplying the 20 to 40.

  • Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Matthew Morris wrote:


    So, if the creature is of the cold type, and gets fire resistance 10...

    Fireball hits for 60 points of damage.

  • Save goes first, let's say he saves for half, so that's 30 points
  • Fire resistance comes next. So the 30 goes to 20
  • Fire vulnerability kicks in, multiplying the 20 to 40.
  • Vulnerability is only x 1.5

    So in your example of the maximized fireball, it would end up as 30 points of fire damage.

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    Good catch, too late for me to fix though. :-(

    The order of operation is important though. If it came first.

    60 points.
    Reduced to 50 for fire resistance
    save for half means 25.
    1.5 means 37.5

    If it came last:
    60 points
    Reduced to 30 for save
    1.5 for 45
    resist 10 for 35.

    Again, thanks for the correction.

    The Exchange

    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Not having these order of operations handy kinda makes this complicated, because in your first example in the previous post, you had:

    Saving Throw -> Fire Resistance -> Fire Vulnerability

    Your next example did:

    Fire Resistance -> Saving Throw -> Fire Vulnerability

    then your last example did:

    Saving Throw -> Fire Vulnerability -> Fire Resistance

    I highly expect that (Saving Throw -> Fire Resistance -> Fire Vulnerability) is the correct order but I can't find where that specifically is spelled out.

    As to the Yeti question, that's a bit more complicated! See the Half-Fiend template specifically says that it changes the creature's type to Outsider (Native). The Yeti's normal type goes from Monstrous Humanoid (Cold) to Outsider (Native). Would the Yeti lose its cold immunity and fire vulnerability as those are specifically granted by the Cold subtype or does he keep the Cold subtype for some reason?

    Shadow Lodge

    xevious573 wrote:
    As to the Yeti question, that's a bit more complicated! See the Half-Fiend template specifically says that it changes the creature's type to Outsider (Native). The Yeti's normal type goes from Monstrous Humanoid (Cold) to Outsider (Native). Would the Yeti lose its cold immunity and fire vulnerability as those are specifically granted by the Cold subtype or does he keep the Cold subtype for some reason?

    It doesn't say that it loses any other subtypes, usually templates specify if something loses things like that. So it should maintain the Cold subtype and the ensuing immunity/vulnerability.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    xevious573 wrote:


    I highly expect that (Saving Throw -> Fire Resistance -> Fire Vulnerability) is the correct order but I can't find where that specifically is spelled out.

    That is my recollection as well, but my PRD search-fu fails me.

    Logically, the save must come first, as it may render everything else moot (ex if evasion is involved).

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    That's my understanding as well. I was just listing all three combinations, to be complete.

    When I said 'first' I meant "Before the vulnerability." Sorry I wasn't clear.

    RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

    Is this dungeon possible? I seem to be completely blocked by locked doors.

    The module says that we can't control the Dancing Hut because it requires a DC 30 Use Magic Device (pg 19), so by extension, I'm assuming the module intends that we can't open all those DC 30 Disable Device locked doors. (Yes, a twinked out 8th level Rogue could hit DC 30 with a take-10, but that's not my point.) I'll assume that author's intent is that we have to find and use the keys, rather than pick the locks or otherwise bypass them (e.g. dimdoor).

    Walking through the dungeon and the options:

    Let's assume (as the module does) that I approach Artrosa during the waxing moon. So my first room is C1 and I fight the ettin. Then I walk down the hallway, and notice locked door C2, but ignore it, because I can't do anything about it. Then I fight the giant at C2a, and take a detour into the deadend room that is C3. Then back into the hallway, and head down through T1, which leads me to D6 (the crypts). The text says that the cells themselves are locked, which leads me to conclude that the main door to the west is not. So I head down some stairs towards D5 (the temple). However, before I even get to the readaloud for D5, it lets me know (pg 40) that "all the doors to this room are locked".

    At this point, I'm stuck. So I look to the sidebar on page 24 that says sometimes Jadrenka hands out keys. I'm assuming that she gives those out when I meet her (either in C6, D1, or E7). But I can't get to any of those rooms. Really, I only have access to three rooms in this whole complex (C1, C3, and D6). And I only have two doors to consider (those into C3 and D5). But let's assume Jadrenka is wandering around during Vsevolod's invasion, and somehow finds me and randomly rolls (as the module suggests) to decide which key to drop. The only key that I can use is the key to C3 (my other potential way forward, room D5, she doesn't have the key to, only her mother does). This means there is only a 1 in 8 chance of her dropping something that I can use to unblock myself and continue the dungeon.

    The other option, I guess, is to wait two weeks for the moon's phase to shift and thus enter Artrosa via D1. (Which most PCs won't want to do, since once they see the battleplans in room C3, they will have a sense of urgency that the problem must be dealt with ASAP. But let's ignore that for now.) But entry via The Mother is weird too, since in D1's text (pg 37) it says "by this point in the adventure, the PCs will likely have had one or two ... encounters with Jadrenka", so clearly this isn't what the author was intending. And then the only way forward is towards D2, which is locked from the outside. But, here's the weird thing: that text (pg 38) says Jadrenka has the key around her neck, but when I look at the list of keys that Jadrenka has (pg 24), this room (D2) isn't even listed!

    I'm at a loss. How are is a party *supposed* to progress through this dungeon? What's the intent here? Obviously, as GM, I need to massage the dungeon and make changes, but I'd like to follow the vision and intent here. I don't just want to scrap all the locked doors, or have Jadrenka drop exactly the right keys at the right time to kite the PCs forward. Maybe I'm too much of a Zelda-fanboy, but the idea of a key-based dungeon interests me. So how do I fix and keep the "key puzzle" aspect of this place intact?

    Also, a bit off-topic: which path did Vsevolod take? And how did he bypass the locked doors? Should we assume the door between D5 and D6 is battered down?

    (Apologies for the length)

    Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

    Erik,

    You can Take 20 on a Disable Device check to unlock a door.

    Granted you can't Take 20 to disable a trap, because there is a penalty for failure, but there is no penalty for failing to unlock something. This is supported by the Core Rules.

    This is straight from the PRD, I just looked it up to cross my T's and dot my I's before I opened my mouth.

    PRD wrote:
    Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).

    A non-twinked out rogue could do this, provided they wanted to spend the time doing it.

    For example: 8 (skill ranks )+ 3 (ranks for being a class skill) + 2 (modest Dex bonus) = Take 20 and bingo.. you hit DC 33.

    Of course, its going to take some time. You might have a wandering monster issue to deal with.. but it doesn't seem impossible. Just challenging.

    Edit: If that sounded patronizing, I'm sorry. I wasn't going for "rule pwnage". What that DC 30 does do is ensure that PCs are not getting through those doors quickly. And if you no one has Disable Device, it could be a headache.

    RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

    Thanks Jim.

    I was afraid it would come down to "take 20 on Disable Device" or "hack the door down with your sword."

    I was looking for some way to preserve Artrosa as a key-based dungeon, rather than teaching the PCs right off the bat to ignore keys and just ram on through things. If that's the way it's going to be, then why bother with all the keys and locked doors? Just fluff and window dressing?

    I guess I thought the keys were supposed to be used to manage how the PCs flowed through the complex.

    Edit: No pwnage felt. :-) But I would posit that if my RoW party was something like my Kingmaker party (Paladin, Cavalier, Fighter, blaster Sorcerer) then they would have more than a "headache" from lack of Rogue: they'd be utterly unable to continue. (Especially since I can't find the hardness/hp of any of these doors, so I must conclude they are indestructible!)


    Erik Freund wrote:

    Thanks Jim.

    I was afraid it would come down to "take 20 on Disable Device" or "hack the door down with your sword."

    I was looking for some way to preserve Artrosa as a key-based dungeon, rather than teaching the PCs right off the bat to ignore keys and just ram on through things. If that's the way it's going to be, then why bother with all the keys and locked doors? Just fluff and window dressing?

    I guess I thought the keys were supposed to be used to manage how the PCs flowed through the complex.

    Well, given that the keys are supposed to be handed out randomly, that would be hard to do, even if the PCs do meet her without getting through the locked doors.

    Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

    Erik Freund wrote:

    Thanks Jim.

    I was afraid it would come down to "take 20 on Disable Device" or "hack the door down with your sword."

    I was looking for some way to preserve Artrosa as a key-based dungeon, rather than teaching the PCs right off the bat to ignore keys and just ram on through things. If that's the way it's going to be, then why bother with all the keys and locked doors? Just fluff and window dressing?

    I guess I thought the keys were supposed to be used to manage how the PCs flowed through the complex.

    I agree the keys should be pretty important. I think what is important to emphasize is the time it takes to get one of those locks open. The chance of wandering monsters increases, timed buff spells have their duration diminished, and if a creature is in pursuit—they can't get it open fast enough.

    A key reduces that to a standard action with the option to quietly relock it behind you.

    I probably need to withdraw at this point because I'm still reading the adventure while I write something else, but bangin' down a door makes a lot of noise. Create some consequences for the "blunt trauma" methodology, and they'll learn to value keys when they obtain them.

    RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

    Jim Groves wrote:
    I agree the keys should be pretty important. I think what is important to emphasize is the time it takes to get one of those locks open. The chance of wandering monsters increases, timed buff spells have their duration diminished, and if a creature is in pursuit—they can't get it open fast enough.

    Opening a lock is a full-round action. Taking 20 is takes 20 rounds, or 3 minutes and change. That's about how long it takes for the PCs to discuss who needs healing, heal them, search the bodies, divide the loot, and then debate whether to go right or left at the next junction. In other words, the standard cooldown time off of every combat. If I institute a standard policy of throwing random monsters at the party for every quietly-taken 3-minute break, that seems harsh. :-/ (And neither I nor my PCs particularly enjoy "trash mobs", but I guess that's a personal style issue and thus not relevant to the dungeon's design.)

    I'm also not sure where these wandering monsters would be coming from in Artrosa: they presumably have their movement impeded by all those locked doors as well.

    I dunno, maybe that's the answer though. Thanks for your insights.

    Dark Archive

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    If memory serves you get an item that helps unlock the doors early on (Chime of opening)

    Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

    Okay, I deleted a post. People please do me a favor and don't quote it.

    This is after a deep breath.

    I don't recommend trash mobs, and in fact I'm stepping back from anything that might sound like a recommendation on how to run a game.

    An 8th level party can get past a DC 30 lock without being munchkins. That's all I'm saying.

    RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

    Kevin Mack wrote:
    If memory serves you get an item that helps unlock the doors early on (Chime of opening)

    I totally missed that! *does a quick PDF search* There it is, page 13! This is perfect. It's a limited-use door-opener that can be used by any party composition.

    I think this solves my riddle. Thanks Kevin, and others who have also joined in (Jim, Jeff).

    Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

    Erik and Co.,

    Sorry for the cold reply. I've sent Erik a PM.

    Sounds like this is sorted out!

    Paizo Employee Developer

    The hardness and hp of the doors in Artrosa is also listed on page 22, in the section entitled "Artrosa Features."

    To some extent, the locked doors are just "window dressing." Why does one room have a couple of statues and another room have tapestries? Window dressing. Little details like furnishings and locked doors make a location feel dynamic and lived-in. In all truthfulness, the locked doors and keys were not designed to be a puzzle of any kind (at least from a development perspective, and if the author planned it that way, it was not communicated to me). They were meant to be an extra detail and extra challenge the PCs must overcome.

    And they are not an insurmountable challenge - as others have pointed out, you take 20 on a Disable Device check, putting it within the reach of most 8th-level rogues. Parties without a rogue can always bash a door down with a DC 28 Strength check - again hard, but not insurmountable, especially with aid another. And there's the amulet that functions as a chime of opening. Lastly, there's Jadrenka's keys, which may not help the PCs at the beginning, but could certainly be of use to those groups who are having trouble with the doors.

    So the adventure does provide means to get through the doors. But we can't design an adventure that's perfectly suited to every single group out there. If a GM knows that his group will have significant problems with a specific encounter or element of an adventure, then it is up to that GM to modify the adventure to account for that - in this case, either by removing locked doors, or lowering the Disable Device DCs, or selecting the keys Jadrenka gives the PCs rather than randomly rolling for them.

    Sovereign Court Contributor

    Erik Freund wrote:
    Kevin Mack wrote:
    If memory serves you get an item that helps unlock the doors early on (Chime of opening)

    I totally missed that! *does a quick PDF search* There it is, page 13! This is perfect. It's a limited-use door-opener that can be used by any party composition.

    I think this solves my riddle. Thanks Kevin, and others who have also joined in (Jim, Jeff).

    This is exactly why there's a chime in an adventure I'm writing right now...

    Though as noted above, any level 8 party should be able to deal with a DC 30, given sufficient thought/planning/a rogue or wizard.


    Having now read the adventure, I intend to make Jadrenka lawful neutral. The changeling's loyalty to Baba Yaga is absolute, but nothing in the book convinced me that she's actually a bad person. Somewhat confused and angry about Marislova's perceived treachery, but not actually evil.

    Now, Marislova's situation looks like a big stumbling block, since Maris herself is at best manipulative towards the PCs and causes a mess with Jadrenka, and at worst dies stupidly and causes a giant mess with Jadrenka.

    My inclination is to have it that once Maris realizes Artrosa's under a serious attack, she'll help the PCs put down the coven and the cultists. While she and Jadrenka are having a spat (and spats involving high level witches are serious business), Maris being willing to abandon Jadrenka to her fate doesn't sit right with me.

    Is there something I'm missing?


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    No. That actually works with my own thoughts. Jadrenka doesn't show any actual EVIL intent. She is working under specific guidelines that she does not deviate from. To me, LN seems the far more logical choice.

    As for Marislova, her wanting to leave at all costs seems... contrived. It's meant to turn Jadrenka against the party. But considering Marislova is still in love with Jadrenka... then I suspect the moment she learns Jadrenka is in danger, she may switch motives and instead want to save her love. And this could even be how she "proves" she is faithful.

    Though there is an alternative: Marislova as a replacement PC. After all, it's a dangerous land. Traveling alone could be fatal. And there is no guarantee of escaping Jadrenka. But traveling with the group? Safety in numbers and allies all in one. ;)


    Jadrenka not evil? "Hi, what are you guys doing here?"
    "We're here to help Baba Yaga."
    "Sweet. See ya later, here's a key to a random room!"
    Poof.
    Gorgon attacks.
    Yeah, i don't see her as lawful evil either....
    More like chaotic evil.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    She is not allowed to directly help the party. The moment she does, she loses her Wardenship and her mother gets the Ring (who goes on a madcap rampage to snag Jadrenka and force her to become a Hag). This is specified in the rules. She. Cannot. Help. The Group. Directly.

    Originally I was thinking of her as true Neutral. But when you consider the constraints she is under and how she stays true to them, LN is the closer fit than N or LE.

    Opinions may differ, naturally. ;)


    Jadrenka's character entry in the back explains a bit.

    She's actually barred by her oath to Baba Yaga from directly helping the PCs until they've proven themselves, which in this case entails the PCs disposing of the demon-worshipping centaur that's made it all the way to the Eon Pit inside the Crone.

    The module also recommends that if the PCs have to fight the entire hag coven at once, Jadrenka will join into the fight - as the coven is her enemy, she needs them taken out, and will wait for the adventuring party to engage the coven so that she isn't doing this alone. She immediately leaves once the fight is over, and I believe she needs to avoid casting beneficial spells on the PCs to keep her oath.

    If she actually helps the PCs bypass any trap or otherwise ass9st them, then she immediately loses the Artrosa Ring and it goes to her mommy, at which point the party suddenly has to deal with an actually psychopathic annis hag that can now teleport at will.

    Caigreal isn't as strong her daughter, but that's still a huge pain in the ass.

    I assume that once the party has proven themselves (by killing that centaur and braving the Eon Pit for the scale), Jadrenka will be happy to help them (though she probably has to sit it out if the party gets into fights with the other inhabitants of Artrosa).

    The party can return the Hut to Iobaria at any time, which lets them meet with that centaur town and with Jadrenka later on in the AP as needed.


    Right. I totally understand what you guys are saying, what I'm saying is what does "prove yourselves" actually entail? Did she actually swear to baba yaga "I won't help anyone until they kill An as yet unamed centaur that is going to invade"? I don't think so, and from that i think that killing the centaur is not the way to prove themselves, that's specifically what the mantle of the black rider is supposed to be for. I really just feel like all of the interactions within this module are completely wonky and not very well thought out. I like the encounters, the theme, the NPC's and overall goals and challenges placed in front of the PC's, it's the background, reasoning and motivations that i don't like.


    In area C2 and C3, the Frost Giant calling his demon allies to his aid is a DC 20 Perception check for them. But they have a +20 Perception modifier. I guess they aren't partying that hard.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    They have a +20 for what they are. However, they have penalties for distance and for being distracted.

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