RD, by that logic, I could totally wear a non-magical suit of armor and then a magical suit of armor right on top of it. Both plate mail.
Or I could wear two shields on my left arm.
Or swing two longswords with my right hand, as long as one is non-magical!
i.e. quit playing favorites with spellcasters, aye?
==Aelryinth
And in my game I would cheerily allow you to do so... all while taking pretty hefty penalties to AC (like negating DEX bonuses as well as likely including additional penalties) because wearing two suits of armor would greatly reduce your ability to actually avoid getting hit.
And the shields would be a similar situation due to the fact you'd likely not be able to hold two shields and maneuver them effectively to actually have them in place to block attacks.
And the swords would have substantial penalties to hit for similar reasons.
As opposed to the minimal amount of weight involved in having an additional circlet on your head.
Apples are not oranges. Now, for example, if you wanted to wear the Famed Battlebelt of Brownbriar, which grants you +4 STR/DEX/CON and shocks anyone who hits you in melee, and which is known by sight by all in the kingdom... and wear a sash over that that pretty well covers it up and which would normally ALSO be considered a belt... go ahead.
But there is a pretty clear difference between what Ravingdork is proposing and what you are trying to counter with.
Aelryinth, your examples are a fair bit more ridiculous than wearing two narrow bands around/on one's head.
You'd be particularly hard pressed to wear two suits of full plate in particular.
MAGIC ITEM SLOTS are for MAGIC ITEMS. When it comes to MUNDANE ITEMS, you can wear/utilize as many as is physically possible.
It most certainly isn't, LazarX. If it's not in the Magical Item chapter and it's not specifically called out as a magical item, then it's mundane.
Next you're going to tell me bat guano is magical because it can create fire.
The ONLY difference between a material component and a focus is that one is destroyed during the casting of a spell.
In any case, you still have not offered any proof that foci are magical items.
They cannot be dispelled or disjoined, they are not affected by antimagic zones, they do not take up magical item slots, and nowhere in any of Paizo's publications are they even hinted as to having magical properties, much less being actual magical items.
EDIT: There is nothing that says they can't be magical items, but the default assumption is that they aren't. The tranformation spell is a good example of where a component is also a magical item.
If I'm in a campaign where having everyone protected by mind blank is an issue, I generally either try to have everyone that needs to have it cast on them buy a pearl of power to cover the slot or have everyone throw in to make a staff with mind blank as one of it's spells.
Never heard of a focus taking up a magic item slot. Odd. I don't think I would like that interpretation as that would mean that you could conceivably render a enemies' items unusable by scribing holy symbols with arcane marks on their mundane gear to make divine foci. Makes the magus arcane mark spam actually worse.
-TimD
A focus isn't something that you can just have in your backpack or pouch... it has to be used appropriately.
I agree, but only insofar as the spell description dictates. Magic Circle Against Evil, for example, says you need to create a 3-foot diameter circle of powdered silver.
Most spells don't tell you what you need to do with the component. In such cases, you merely need to possess it.
Shapechange says nothing about having to wear its focus. That is merely an assumption and house rule on your part.
Ah, but what has more of a style factor, wearing the jade circlet that is always there when you're *bamfing* through various forms trying not to get eaten by {insert big nasty monster here}, or just having the thing in your pocketses?
I'd go with the style factor. That, and if you're already wearing it, you know you've got that focus accessible. 'cause sometimes you're in a nasty dimensionally blocked area and you can't fish your components out of your extradimensional storage spaces. ;)
An entirely separate issue, Turin. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd support you, RD, but I think nothing can make your case better for you than just allowing Aelryinth to keep talking.
A focus isn't something that you can just have in your backpack or pouch... it has to be used appropriately.I agree, but only insofar as the spell description dictates. Magic Circle Against Evil, for example, says you need to create a 3-foot diameter circle of powdered silver.
Most spells don't tell you what you need to do with the component. In such cases, you merely need to possess it.
Shapechange says nothing about having to wear its focus. That is merely an assumption and house rule on your part.
Stop invoking those words as a judgment value. You know as well as I do that this game isn't spelled out that completely and can't be spelled out to that extent that you can run any game including PFS without making an interpretation and a call on grey areas.
The designers of the game could have easily made the focus something that was not obviously meant to be worn during it's use as a spell focus. Instead they chose to make it an obviously wearable item, so I would assume that the intention is that part of the casting components would include wearing the focus.
Your assumption is probably correct, but not necessarily. That's where you two disagree.
However the focus isn't a magic item, so it's proper use doesn't interfere with a magic item. Just make one smaller than the other. Like wearing a yamaka (spelling?) under a bolder hat.
I would tell you where I'm wearing my jade circlet, but it would upset the forum mods.
That's a fair point - the focus doesn't say what size it is, only that it is a circlet of (x) gp value. Wear it on any number of ... appendages, maybe as a piercing...
The rules clearly show that if anything special needs to be done with the focus, it says so rather plainly in the spell description. I've shown examples of this.
Therefore, if it doesn't say anything special needs to be done, then logic dictates that nothing special needs to be done.
My Sorcerer is currently 13th level. Once I hit 14th My first spell is going to be Monster Summoning VII because I can't think of anything better to take. 16th is going to be tough because I want both Mind Blank and Moment of Precience. 18th is going to be agonizing because I want both Mage's Disjunction and Shapechange, and don't know if I will be able to wait until 19th level when I get it as a bloodline spell. Then of course there's Time Stop to consider as well, and given that I'm a Fey bloodline sorcerer who specializes in enchantment spells, I can't forget about Dominate Monster or Mass Hold Monster...
My sorcerer's life is hard.
Just want to point out that it can be made pretty obvious when there is something specific to be done with materials/focuses.
Components V, S, M (diamond worth 500 gp), F (One 1,000 gp diamond per target. Each subject must carry the gem for the duration of the spell. If a subject loses the gem, the spell ceases to affect him.)
Otherwise, a focus is a focus. There is absolutely nothing in Shapechange that suggests there is anything special to its usage after the spell is cast.
I'm not arguing anything about the circlet in particular. I'm arguing that RD's argument that a mundane item and a magic item can share the same slot is NOT in the rules, and he's making it up.
There is no rule that allows you to wear a jade circlet and your Mental boosters in the same slot. Either you're in the slot, or you aren't.
The examples I gave were ridiculous because the magical item rules are quite clear...you only get one item per chakra slot, and if a mundane item is in that slot, it doesn't work and you can't do it. It also makes NO sense that you can have a mundane and a magical item occupying the same slot, but you can't have two magical items in the slot!
So, no, you can't wear two suits of plate armor, at least without an Epic 3.5 feat. By the rules, it is simply NOT POSSIBLE. One item per slot, tyvm. The only nod they give to such stuff is when one suit might be a subset of the other (wearing leather under plate), and even then, only one applies, the other actually has no effect whatsoever.
Hence, RD's argument is false on its face, and he needs to come up with a better one. House ruling that you can wear two items with penalties is just that...a house rule.
So, the whole circlet thing is a hand waver, but I would note that they wouldn't call it a jade circlet if it wasn't meant to be worn on the head. If it was just a jade hoop, you could wear it anywhere. The precision of description basically defines itself in this instance. So I'm of the opinion it must be worn on the forehead, and there's a reason so many high level mages wear headgear, diadems, and ornamental crowns.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Are you arguing that if you were wearing an amulet of natural armor, and found a simple gold necklace that you would be unable to put that necklace on? Or merely that it would negate the amulet of natural armor?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Foci aren't magic items just by being foci for spells.
This isn't a video-game Aelryinth, where you have a limited number of slots for clothes, jewelry and weapons. You can wear as much stuff as is physically possible for your character. The only "slot" limitations that exist in Pathfinder exist SOLELY in the context of magical items.
Even then, there's nothing keeping you from wearing a mundane necklace and a magical one, or even two magical ones (though only one would function) or more than two rings (though only two magical ones would function at any given time).
This isn't a video-game Aelryinth, where you have a limited number of slots for clothes, jewelry and weapons. You can wear as much stuff as is physically possible for your character. The only "slot" limitations that exist in Pathfinder exist SOLELY in the context of magical items.
Even then, there's nothing keeping you from wearing a mundane necklace and a magical one, or even two magical ones (though only one would function) or more than two rings (though only two magical ones would function at any given time).
They even spell out in the rules for slots about physically wearing multiple rings, but only 2 magical rings can be active at a time.
Does that mean that I could wear two magic rings and a ring of feather fall and most of the time the feather fall is inactive, but when I'm failing I deactivate one of the other rings and activate the ring of feather-fall.
Cool.
Does that mean that I could wear two magic rings and a ring of feather fall and most of the time the feather fall is inactive, but when I'm failing I deactivate one of the other rings and activate the ring of feather-fall.
Cool.
The rules don't really cover how to handle this, it's really up to your DM. Many DMs I've had (and myself) have ruled you need to take off one of the currently active rings *and* the ring you wish to make active, put the latter back on first, then put the former back on or stow it away or drop it or whatever.
Basically, make it as action-intensive and awkward as possible to prevent making it too easy.
But that is definitely not RAW, there is no RAW for the situation as far as I know.
Does that mean that I could wear two magic rings and a ring of feather fall and most of the time the feather fall is inactive, but when I'm failing I deactivate one of the other rings and activate the ring of feather-fall.
Cool.
Yes you could, but only the first items adorned function. That means that if you were falling, you would have to remove at least two of your three rings then put your feather fall ring back on. You likely couldn't do that in time unless you were falling an exceptionally far distance.
It's up to your GM to determine what kind of actions it takes to do that. I'd say a move action per ring if it were me.
And in that spellcasting you have to use that item the way you normally would, in that case by drinking it.
EDIT: There is nothing that says they can't be magical items, but the default assumption is that they aren't. The tranformation spell is a good example of where a component is also a magical item.
Does the spell say you must drink it? Because if not, then you don't. Kind of hard to drink something that is consumed by the spell anyways.
Every interpretation I've ever seen of that spell is that you drink the potion as part of the casting.
Note that my argument also includes the concept of 'functional use of.' A jade circlet on the head is going to be wrestling with your headband for that slot while the spell is trying to determine what is actually there and if it is in the right spot...it's just as much an argument for chakra slots as anything.
And heck, an Amulet of Nat Armor could be hung on a Necklace of Adaptation, which could dangle from a Torc of Power, and that still won't work!
RD, you're trying to argue that because it's a spell component and not a magical item it can ignore the slot rules, and I really don't agree.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
man this thread is making me really angryNow Mr. Banner it's really time to take your quiet pills.
But seriously dude, if rules discussions can actually make you angry, it's time to give these boards an avoidance for maybe a month or two. and perhaps maybe find a professional to talk to.
Because quite frankly, it's not worth getting worked over on, especially in such a low impact area of the rules.
Maybe this will lighten your mood.
Yeah, count me in for the only consequences of wearing a magical and mundane circlet would be looking silly. And actually, if you crafted the the jade circlet specifically to accompany and offset the magical one, you could probably start new fashion styles.
As to the "a focus is used in a spell, and thus it's nearly a magic item" argument, let's look at it from the reverse.
I'm a low to medium level wizard with a lot of time on my hands thanks to the particulars of the campaign. I use this time by researching a custom spell, and this spell requires me to wave around a masterwork shortsword, with the sword acting as a focus. I begin to carry said masterwork shortsword around with me. One day I use the spell (whatever it is) in battle, and afterwards I still have the sword in my hands. The enemy, who happens to have DR10/magic, physically attacks my wizard. I decide that since I have a shortsword in my hands, I'll use it to attack.
*Rolls*
DM: You hit?! Woah, okay... you hit, but you don't do any damage because of the DR.
Me: Oh, but I used a sword that's also a spell focus. So it negates the DR, because it's nearly a magic weapon!
DM: Um... no.
If you can't get the bonus for it, you can't get the penalty either.
Edit: Also, how did a discussion about Mind Blank Awesomeness become a rules debate on Shapechange???
It's a thread full of raving dorks. It can go pretty much anywhere.
You are my favorite person today :DMaybe this will lighten your mood.
Damn right I am.
PRD says:
A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which slot on the body the item is worn.
Now given that the shapechanged creature is presumably no longer humanoid, the above slot restriction might not apply. Become a Hydra or Chimera and your head slot issues are moot.
IMHO, you do need to wear the circlet, you can obviously wear a mundane item in a slot without affecting any magic item, and a focus isn't a magic item. Though I suppose you could double the cost of the magic component of the jade circlet (0x2=0) and make it slotless anyway.