On Morality and Neutrality (Another Alignment Thread D: )


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Axel, you have necromancy of untold power. :P

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

True Neutral actually embodies two different, perhaps opposed alignments.

1. The Unaligned. This person literally has no agenda. he may be curious he may be looking for something, or he may just want to be left alone. He is concerned with neither rules, nor freedom, nor the big issues of selfishness or selflessness.

2. The Balancer. He is both the ultimate in active participant and Architect. His aesthetic is the Balance above all other things and he actively intervenes to make or maintain a Balance. He has few if any friends, only allies and tools of the moment.


Bandw2 wrote:
Axel, you have necromancy of untold power. :P

Now I just need a floating skull and a black robe...


One thing that I did not see specifically mentioned would be what I have seen referred to as the innocent alignment. That are similar to animals in they do not have the capacity to understand moral choices. Unlike animals, they simply have not developed the capacity yet.

They may a concept of right and wrong in that they can register that you did something wrong to me, but they are not yet capable of understanding altruism or malice because they haven't internalized the concept of others having thoughts and feelings like themselves. Basically children, a man raised by wild animals.


I tend to use law to mean you would prefer to be lead by someone based on social status (king, elected president, pope, general), and chaos means you would prefer to be lead by someone based on a physical or mental capability (biggest, smartest, most charismatic). Of course that doesn't fit the default for a lot of critters (most dragons would be chaotic since they are the biggest, smartest, and most charismatic and most fey, with seely and unseely courts [and fall, winter, spring, and summer versions of both], would be lawful). Neutral means you don't care who is in charge as long as things are going well.

For good and evil, I think there are big moments (in rpgs) when you make defining choices. A big moment for a dirt farmer is not the same as for a level 15 fighter or a level 20 wizard. Neutrals either haven't made a choice in a big moment or their choices have roughly cancelled out.


Mechagamera wrote:
I tend to use law to mean you would prefer to be lead by someone based on social status (king, elected president, pope, general), and chaos means you would prefer to be lead by someone based on a physical or mental capability (biggest, smartest, most charismatic).

That's problematic, as probably the single largest group of people doesn't want to be led at all. That's one reason that "leadership" is a difficult skill that a lot of organizations go to a tremendous amount of trouble to teach.

One of the best expressions of chaos I've ever read is from Invictus:

Quote:


It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.


I genuinely hope that some of the posts on this thread are facetious. I mean, murdering for personal gain not evil? Of course it is! Evil doesn't require active malice. Harmful actions done for the sake of greed are a textbook example of evil. You don't have to wish harm on another person for stealing from them to be wrong, you just have to put your own joy or well being disproportionately above theirs.


I think there are a few different ways a person could be neutral. But I also think that by far the most common is people who believe that they're good, and think of themselves as good, and even try and do good things fairly often...

...just not quite often enough. People are really good at being selfish. And really good at lying to themselves. And really good at persuading themselves that this selfish thing they're doing is totally not selfish and totally something they're doing for the sake of someone else.

Of course, they're not thieves... but they will help themselves to a bottle of booze that's sat around unattended. After all, someone's lost it. Or they wouldn't steal from anyone who couldn't afford it... but this time? This one time? This specific person clearly can afford it, so it's okay! And never mind that that happens every fortnight. And they'd never f#~! up a friends relationship! But it was obvious that that last partner was a bad idea, so they were just helping the friend see it. Or they're not corrupt, but everyone knows that some free drinks now and again is just a perk of the job. Or they're not cruel, not sadistic! But sometimes they're in a bad mood, and they lash out, and it's not their fault because they'd had a few drinks and everyone knows what they're like after a few drinks.

So I think for most people the path of neutrality is the path of making excuses for your own petty selfishness, but keeping your selfishness petty enough that you can still excuse it.


Lucy_Valentine wrote:
A bunch of good stuff.

That's a great way to think about neutrality that jives with the timeless "everyone thinks they're a good guy".


Detect Magic wrote:

The only way someone could feasibly remain neutral is by keeping a running tally of decisions he's made. Well, seems I have three checks for "good" and only two for "evil". Guess I'm gonna be evil this time 'round.

Life doesn't work that way. That's Two-Face logic. Unless you're playing a mad-man, it's impossible.

Well you say that, but it's a demonstrable psychological result, albeit a subconscious process rather than a conscious one:

scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/04/06/our-moral-thermostat-why-being -good-can-give-people-licens/


Lucy_Valentine wrote:

I think there are a few different ways a person could be neutral. But I also think that by far the most common is people who believe that they're good, and think of themselves as good, and even try and do good things fairly often...

...just not quite often enough. People are really good at being selfish. And really good at lying to themselves. And really good at persuading themselves that this selfish thing they're doing is totally not selfish and totally something they're doing for the sake of someone else.

Of course, they're not thieves... but they will help themselves to a bottle of booze that's sat around unattended. After all, someone's lost it. Or they wouldn't steal from anyone who couldn't afford it... but this time? This one time? This specific person clearly can afford it, so it's okay! And never mind that that happens every fortnight. And they'd never f$$* up a friends relationship! But it was obvious that that last partner was a bad idea, so they were just helping the friend see it. Or they're not corrupt, but everyone knows that some free drinks now and again is just a perk of the job. Or they're not cruel, not sadistic! But sometimes they're in a bad mood, and they lash out, and it's not their fault because they'd had a few drinks and everyone knows what they're like after a few drinks.

So I think for most people the path of neutrality is the path of making excuses for your own petty selfishness, but keeping your selfishness petty enough that you can still excuse it.

I would add that one of their justifications for being selfish or petty is, "I am been a good boy lately, I can't be nice all the time." They do good, but like the bad things it is a lot of little things that don't really add up to much.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
I tend to use law to mean you would prefer to be lead by someone based on social status (king, elected president, pope, general), and chaos means you would prefer to be lead by someone based on a physical or mental capability (biggest, smartest, most charismatic).

That's problematic, as probably the single largest group of people doesn't want to be led at all. That's one reason that "leadership" is a difficult skill that a lot of organizations go to a tremendous amount of trouble to teach.

One of the best expressions of chaos I've ever read is from Invictus:

Quote:


It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.

I appreciate the sentiment, although I think neutral to coves it, since I suspect a desire for leadership/protection increases when times are hard or dangerous.

Most societies have pretty strong feelings about who should be in charge and most PC's come from societies, so it is likely they are either conforming or rebelling to that notion.


Well , personally my problem with NN is that i cant understand how an adventurer can be like that most of the time if their starter story is not really well made.

I will agree with others that said , on true neutral stands the common folk.

They arent evil or good , they are just living their lives like they can , doing their best day/day and sometimes they make good or evil deeds , some have better or worse day , but in general they dont dwell on that. They just want to live a good life and so on.

Now on an adventurer i usually look at something that drives them to become more than the others , something outside just living a day at a time and getting by doing what they can.

To me major figures and so on , the characters that we remember and most of those we learn in history even would have something that toss them outside NN each. Something that drives them and gives them a strong personality.

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