Does the Courageous Property Enhance All Morale Bonuses?


Rules Questions


6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

There seems to be some confusion regarding the courageous property (at least in the eyes of hero lab anyway). This issue mainly manifests itself in the idea that morale bonuses from things such as the barbarian rage and the desperate battler feats are not affected by a courageous weapon.

For those who don't know, allow me to explain what the 'courageous' property does...

Pathfinder SRD wrote:

This special ability can only be added to a melee weapon.

A courageous weapon fortifies the wielder's courage and morale in battle. The wielder gains a morale bonus on saving throws against fear equal to the weapon's enhancement bonus. In addition, any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source is increased by half the weapon's enhancement bonus (minimum 1).

Now, I've already tried asked James Jacobs his opinion regarding this issue, and he stated that morale bonuses 'don't stack'. However, after reading the description of the 'courageous' property, I'm not convinced that any 'stacking' has occurred.

The courageous property specifically states that it 'increases' the morale bonus (from ANY source) based upon half of the weapons enhancement bonus. If such is the case, then I imagine this would apply to morale bonuses gained from things like the barbarian's rage ability (along with the desperate battler feat).

I would greatly appreciate it if a dev could clarify this for me, or at the very least, if anyone else could give me their opinion and let me know if I'm making an incorrect assumption regarding the interpretation of how this weapon property actually works. Thanks again for your help.


Yes, it increases all morale bonuses, so it's a Barbarian's dream property (well, after Furious).


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

It definitely increases morale bonuses to STR/CON from rage.

I have a few questions about how it interacts with other items or abilities that increase a morale bonus. does the"any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source is increased by half the weapon's enhancement bonus (minimum 1)." stack with itself? I have looked for some clarifications on how these "+x increase to bonus" items stack without much luck. The nature of these items is such that their sole function is to provide an increase to a bonus. I suspect most would agree that the increase to a bonus stacks with the bonus it modifies both by RAI and RAW. Is this increase itself a bonus? This clearly doesn't fall under the normal bonus stacking rules of only getting the highest bonus of a given type (outside of dodge, circumstance, etc.)

1. lets say a barbarian is dual wielding two +2 courageous weapons and rages. how much morale bonus to STR/CON should one expect from the weapon properties?

a. 1 morale bonus because the increase to morale bonus from courageous weapon doesn't stack with itself. (please provide citation or ruling)

b. 2 morale bonus: 1 from mainhand, 1 offhand

c. 4 morale bonus: 1 from mainhand, 1 offhand, then one from each "trigger" of the weapon property as they provide an increase to morale bonus.


Well first off "gains from any other source" would negate the stacking of itself.
A barbarian with 2 courageous weapons would get rage +2, 1 from each hand. each weapon increases rage by half of the weapons enhancement bonus.
As for why I would say c. does not work, the same enchantment on two different weapons is considered the same source so they would not affect each other. At least that is how I view it.

Huh I never thought of dual wielding with double courageous weapons, looks like a good idea :)

Oh ya, you might want to look at dragon totem with superstition and ghost rager ;) You get some sweets with those, and ghost rager actually gets effected twice (so 4 times with 2 weapons) :D


Rotund0 wrote:
It definitely increases morale bonuses to STR/CON from rage.

Absolutely true.

Rotund0 wrote:


1. lets say a barbarian is dual wielding two +2 courageous weapons and rages. how much morale bonus to STR/CON should one expect from the weapon properties?

a. 1 morale bonus because the increase to morale bonus from courageous weapon doesn't stack with itself. (please provide citation or ruling)

b. 2 morale bonus: 1 from mainhand, 1 offhand

c. 4 morale bonus: 1 from mainhand, 1 offhand, then one from each "trigger" of the weapon property as they provide an increase to morale bonus.

Probably A. From the ban against stacking even untyped bonuses from the same source.

Maybe B; I'm thinking no. I don't like the idea of a high-level guy with 2 courageous weapons, courageous armor spikes etc.

Certainly not C.


Gonna have to go with A here. There was an FAQ as I recall that stated even untyped bonuses from the same source won't stack.

Can't be sure though since technically its not actually a bonus. its an increase to an existing bonus.


I can understand the reasoning for A. just simply because of how abusive it can get with B. or C...
2 weapon wielding 2 courageous weapons, courageous armour spikes, barbazu beard, bolder helmet, AOMF for any and all natural weapons... Thats not including those foot sword thingies. Even a mid level barbarian with multiple +1 courageous X weapons would be possible and quite overpowered. +5 to Str, dex, will saves, all saves, fear/paralysis/sleep saves and +10 touch ac. That is with superstition, ghost rager and dragon totem.

Unless there is a limit of this only working with the 2 weapons you wield, I cant see B. and C. being allowed.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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I think everyone can agree that the bonus from Courageous does not stack with the bonus from Courageous, and does not AFFECT the bonus from courageous.

This would be in line with the non-stacking of Defender bonuses, which also include the 'all other' language, but don't stack.

==Aelryinth


Thanks for the responses everyone. I suspect Aelryinth's example might be the ruling I have been looking for. I will have to look into the specific wording later tonight when I have more time.

The argument can be made that courageous isn't granting a bonus, but increasing one. Perhaps this interpretation is trying to slice it too fine. It boils down to this: Is an increase to a named bonus a bonus itself, even though it isn't called one? how does this interact with other items(non courageous weapons) and abilities that increase a morale bonus?

A few examples include courageous weapon and:
flagbearer feat with Banner of the Ancient Kings (order of operation?)
Amplified rage teamwork feat with a ring of tactical precision.

Grand Lodge

It does stack with the Moment of Greatness spell.


is this what you were referring to Aelryinth?

defending weapon property wrote:
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn. This ability can only be placed on melee weapons.

If so, Should the same logic be applied here since it grants a bonus instead of increasing another bonus? I don't think it should, but perhaps i am missing something. anyone want to take a crack at how a courageous weapon interact with other items that increase a morale bonus?

flagbearer feat with Banner of the Ancient Kings (order of operation? stacking?) by one reading of this i could see gaining 8 morale to hit/damage from a +4 courageous/furious longspear while raging.

or how about the same +4 courageous/furious raging with
Amplified rage teamwork feat with a ring of tactical precision.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

On the defender? yeah. Some people like to say that if you have two defending weapons and defender armor spikes you can get like +15 Defender AC. (rolls eyes).

I don't see why any or all of those other bonuses wouldn't be increased by Courageous, as long as they are morale bonuses.

And yes, that means Courageous can be VERY powerful, if you've got morale bonuses on demand.

As for feat/effect multipliers, you generally combine them in the manner which would be most advantageous for the caster of the effect. But, remember Courageous only affects the sword bearer, NOT the flagbearer.

So, the doubling isn't going to come into play...it's what the Flag does for HIM, not for everyone else. So, a Raging Barb with a +4 Furious/Courageous sword would increase the morale bonus he gets by +3. A Flagbearer with the FoAK grants a +2 bonus, so he'd end up with +5...still incredibly strong, but not the +8 you were worried about.

==Aelryinth


thanks for taking the time to respond to this longtime forum lurker everyone. I am considering playing an arcane duelist(bard)7/barbarianX character with the aforementioned feats/items and wanted to float the idea here to make sure I have not misunderstood how these items interact. I still have some questions about how items that increase a bonus stack (not with themselves according to the majority here) and if they themselves provide the bonus or modify it as written. Some of these questions fall outside the scope of this courageous weapon thread though and should be posted elsewhere I suppose.

Aelryinth said wrote:
As for feat/effect multipliers, you generally combine them in the manner which would be most advantageous for the caster of the effect. But, remember Courageous only affects the sword bearer, NOT the flagbearer.

I agree, unless the "sword bearer" is the courageous longspear wielding flag bearer with banner. by this logic, could we expect:

(1Flagbearer +3 from +4 furious/courageous longspear while raging)X2 Banner of the Ancient Kings = +8 morale bonus to hit/dam for himself in this case?
(1+3)2 =8 ? as the courageous weapon increase the flagbearer bonus to +4, then the banner doubles the flagbearer bonus?

or perhaps you get the courageous weapon + to the doubling effect of the banner as well as it is effectively granting a morale bonus by its function (1+3)(2+3)= +20 morale bonus. sorry truestrike, you are not needed here... LOL

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The flag and the bearer are two seperate items.

Courageous will increase the bonus its bearer gets.
Flagbearer increases the bonus the flag provides.

So, the flagbearer lets the flag bestow a +2 bonus instead of a +1 bonus...he's enhancing the flag.

The flag then provides him a +2 morale bonus, which his Courageous weapon increases to +5.

The Courageous weapon does nothing to the flag. It enhances the person, not a magic item.

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:

The flag and the bearer are two seperate items.

Courageous will increase the bonus its bearer gets.
Flagbearer increases the bonus the flag provides.

So, the flagbearer lets the flag bestow a +2 bonus instead of a +1 bonus...he's enhancing the flag.

The flag then provides him a +2 morale bonus, which his Courageous weapon increases to +5.

The Courageous weapon does nothing to the flag. It enhances the person, not a magic item.

==Aelryinth

The basic flag doesn't provide any bonus at all. It's just a non-magical piece of cloth on a stick.

The Flagbearer feat provides the basic bonus of +1 morale on saves vs. fear and charm effects, +1 morale to attack rolls, and +1 morale to weapon damage rolls to all allies (including yourself) within 30 ft. (who can see the flag).

The Courageous enhancement (presumably on the Flagbearer's longspear) increases morale bonuses the wielder gains from any source by X (X being 1/2 enhancement bonus of the Courageous weapon).

The Banner of Ancient Kings doubles the bonus provided by the Flagbearer feat.

It is strictly an order of operations issue.

If you apply Courageous to the Flagbearer morale bonus first, then the Flagbearer bonus is +8 for the wielder and +2 for everyone else. If you apply the Banner of the Ancient Kings first then the wielder receives +5 and everyone else still receives +2.

If you want to muddy the waters even further, you can throw in Improved Eldritch Heritage (Imperious - Heroic Echos). Heroic Echos also adds a +1 to all morale bonuses for the possessor of the bloodline power (also does it for competence bonuses if your effective sorcerer level is 9 or higher) and as an immediate action (a few times per day), if such a bonus is coming from a source that also provides the bonus to others, you can increase it for them too for a short period. And there is of course also the Rage ability and the Furious enhancement. (It is actually possible for a single character to have all of these without even multi-classing, for example a Evangelist Cleric of Ragathiel with the Destruction/Rage domain/subdomain who takes the Flagbearer feat and the Eldritch Heritage (Imperious) line of feats and picks up a Courageous, Furious Longspear with Banner of the Ancient Kings would have it all around level 12-13 and probably also the Superstition rage power to boot, its a morale bonus too after all.)

In any event, again, its purely an order of operations issue. All of the abilities augment the morale bonus. The fact that Banner double the bonus provided by Flagbearer feat is semantics and likewise not very helpful, as both Courageous and Heroic Echos state that they increase the bonus. The bonus itself is still the bonus provided by the Flagbearer feat and thus subject to doubling.

The question is simply whether the doubling from the Banner of Ancient Kings occurs before or after other increases to the bonus are applied.

I actually asked this question myself a few days ago. The response I recieved was additions first, then multiplications. So seemingly, the bonuses can get pretty nuts.

Of course, with Flagbearer, the bonus can become a penalty if the flag is destroyed or stolen, so a buffed bonus is also a potentially worse Achilles Heel too.

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It's actually less an order of operations then whether the ability is 'provided' or 'gained'.

I.e. you only gain the benefits of the Courageous item AFTER you get the morale bonus.

The flagbearer feat doubles the bonus granted by Flagbearer...think of it as doubling the radiating bonus that is going out to everyone. That bonus is +2, unaffected by COurageous.

That bonus comes back, hits you and your buddies, and Courageous gives it a bump. It can't increase the bonus before it gets to you. Likewise, the Flag operates independently of you and your weapon...it will always give a +2 bonus to everyone, and then each person checks to see if it's increased.

You're making the argument that the Flag might double the bonus after it hits you. Since it draws from the feat, and the feat goes out to others, i.e. 'is provided', I'm thinking it has to stand in the middle. COurageous, meanwhile, only modifies a bonus once it hits you, i.e. once you 'gain' the bonus, and so takes place at the end.

But, YMMV on how you read it. If someone getting a benefit from the feat suddenly drew a courageous weapon, it should always be the same, not suddenly changing the definiton of provider and gained.

==Aelryinth


The Flagbearer feat doesn't double anything. The Flagbearer feat is the source of the initial morale bonus (actually, read literally it is the source for the ability for YOU to grant the bonus). If you don't have the feat, carrying around a mundane flag doesn't do anything. You've completely lost me here. I think either you're talking about something I've overlooked or you've confused what does what. Either way, we're apparently not on the same page with this. That may be stymieing our discussion. To clarify, here is the relevant language from Flagbearer feat, Courageous weapon enhancement, and the Banner of the Ancient Kings wondrous item (leaving Heroic Echos and other stuff to the side).

Flagbearer:
As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag, members of that allegiance within 30 feet who can see the flag (including yourself ) gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against fear and charm effects. You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus.

Courageous Weapon:
In addition, any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source is increased by half the weapon's enhancement bonus (minimum 1).

Banner of the Ancient Kings:
If the banner’s carrier possesses the Flagbearer feat, the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat.

Nevertheless, I don't think the "granted" or "gained" distinction is really helpful. They are reciprocal terms, when something grants, something gains but the THING granted and gained is still the same thing and, moreover, there isn't any temporal difference between the grant and gain either. The granting and gain as written are utterly simulataneous and undifferentiated matters. The language of Flagbearer even uses both terms in such fashion, though not all feats do. Ironically, Flagbearer, as written, implies that as a feat it grants no morale bonuses at all. The last sentence of the feat implies that it merely gives YOU the ability to grant the listed morale bonuses, the feat itself doesn't grant those.. YOU do. So the Banner of the Ancient Kings doubles... nothing as the feat grants no morale bonuses of any kind.

Flagbearer:
You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus.

It doesn't say "You must hold the flag in one hand in order for this bonus to be granted.", it literally says "You . . . grant this bonus."
Of course, this same sentence has also raised eyebrows with regards to the "in one hand" part too. But that is a whole different rules question entirely.

Aside: Also, the Banner of Ancient Kings has to be on a two-handed pole or longspear to be worth buying/making, so presumably that is going to be the Courageous weapon in question. There is not likely ever going to be a moment where you pull out the Courageous weapon and change the bonus provided. I mean, I suppose a Synergist Summoner merged with a multi-armed eidolon could, but I can't really see an advantage to doing so. But I might be wrong... maybe.

Edit:
Also, if there actually is some documented rule that bonuses granted and bonuses gained ARE somehow two separate matters, could someone please cite that. As, if that's the case, then I suppose the question is fairly well resolved.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You grant the bonus to others...including yourself.

The Banner doubles the bonus that you grant. It changes from a broadcast +1 to a broadcast +2. Courageous is nowhere involved yet.

Anyone who has a Courageous weapon once the bonus is gained, gets the usual bonus. That's the difference between grant and gain. One is sending it out, the other is receiving it. It basically defines the order of operations you're worried about.

The feat itself NEVER changes. The banner modifies that feat, it doesn't modify what everyone in the area gets after the fact, so it has no effect on Courageous.

And you're forgetting that OTHER people in the AOE could have Courageous weapons. The flagbearer is no different then any of them in that regard.

Scenario 1: Anyone in the AoE (including the flagbearer), draws a Courageous weapon. +2 changes to +5.

Scenario2: Someone has a courageous weapon drawn, and the flagbearer walks into range. They get hit by a +2, which pops to a +5.

Scenario 3: Someone with the flagbearer feat and a normal flag picks up a second standard with an active Banner.
The bonus they grant changes from +1 to +2, since it modifies their feat, not the people receiving it. The guy with the courageous weapon active goes from +4 to +5.

Summary: Courageous can't modify a bonus until you get it. The Banner modifies the bonus at its source, before Courageous can modify it. Whether or not the flagbearer or someone else is using a Courageous weapon is immaterial, both will be treated the same. The end result is going to be +5, using our numbers above.

==Aelryinth


The Banner modifies the morale bonus, not the feat. Everything specifically says it modifies the morale bonus. The Banner does not say “The Flagbearer feat now grants double its normal bonus.” That would be modifying the feat. It says “[T]he banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat.” That says it modifies the morale bonus. In fact, everything says it modifies the morale bonus (Courageous, the Banner, Heroic Echoes, etc.). Nothing modifies the feat.

Likewise, as stated before, whether gained or granted, it’s the same morale bonus. The bonus the feat (or you, depending on how literally you read the feat) grant is the same bonus that you and others gain. There are not two separate entities, the bonus granted and the bonus gained, they are one and the same morale bonus. An augmentation to the bonus gained is an augmentation to the bonus granted. If an augmentation only applies to a single recipient, this changes nothing. The bonus gained/granted in relation to that recipient is still one and the same. [Again, if there is actually a rule in place that abstractly differentiates between bonuses granted/gained, then that answers our debate. I simply can’t find any such rule and everything I read seems to indicate no such differentiation exists.]

Mind you, I see what you are saying with the temporal order. However there is nothing that I can find that says that the order in which you receive bonuses or augmentations to bonuses “in time” has any bearing on the order in which you calculate bonuses and augmentations to bonuses as they apply to your character at any given moment thereafter.

Example 1: You have bonus A (your flagbearer morale bonuses) and you have multiplier B in place (the banner of ancient kings doubling Flagbearer morale bonuses) and then you receive an addition of C (the Courageous weapon increase to all morale bonuses).

There is nothing that says that because of that order of events "in time", you must calculate that as (A x B) + C, rather than calculating it as B (A+C). There is nothing anywhere that says that, nor does any example that I can find, imply it. In fact, basic examples seem to say the contrary is true.

If you have Strength 18 and a two-handed, and then receive a Bull Strength spell from an ally, is not the additional +2 Strength bonus to damage resulting from the spell multiplied by the 1.5 from wielding your two-handed weapon when you attack? Yes it is.

Example 2: You have bonus A (your base strength bonus to damage) and you have multiplier B in place (the 1.5 multiplier to your Strength bonus to damage from wielding a two-handed weapon in two hands) and then you receive an addition of C (the Bull Strength increase to your Strength bonus to damage).

Just because the addition to your strength bonus to damage from the Bull Strength spell came after the multiplier to your strength bonus to damage from wielding a two-handed weapon was already in place, does not mean that the addition is not also multiplied. Mind you, there is no granted vs. gained language to fidget with here, but that doesn’t matter as again… the bonus granted and the bonus gained are one and the same thing.

Sczarni

yeah, why wouldn't it improve the things it says it improves?

A problem in a third party program is hardly worth a question for a simple matter.


lantzkev wrote:

yeah, why wouldn't it improve the things it says it improves?

A problem in a third party program is hardly worth a question for a simple matter.

Because if it modified all morale bonuses rather than only the morale bonuses against fear previously mentioned it's massive power creep for a +1 enhancement.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Modifying the morale bonus granted by the feat IS modifying the feat..it's changing the effect of the feat. Nothing changes. The bonus is modified at source, before anyone receives it, and then Courageous kicks in.

Your bull's strength benefit is off kilter. You have something in there that modifies the effect bull's strength grants, the additional damage from an increased Strength, but you have nothing that specifically references what Bull's Strength does, i.e. what the Banner does for the Flagbearer feat.

The increased bonus from using two hands is more akin to Courageous, but I notice you didn't try to make the argument that the 1.5 multiplier to Str damage should be increased by +3 from Courageous. Why? Because the effect is derived from Strength, and COurageous increases the morale bonus to Strength, not the mechanical and very un-morale related increase to damage from two handing.

So, bad example.

I know what you're trying to argue, and cause a conflict on.

Flagbearer walks into an area. The guy next to him has the +4 Furious Courageous weapon drawn. His morale bonus is +4, +1 From the flagbearer feat and +3 enhanced by the sword.

Flagbearer sees the royal standard on the ground, rushes to pick it up. Banner says double the bonus from Flagbearer feat. Flagbearer is now at +2, and his friend DOUBLES to +8.

His friend puts away his sword. His bonus falls to +2. the enemy closes in, and he draws his sword again. He's now at +5.

That's pretty much the situation you are trying to argue with a timing issue. The solution, of course, is to ignore the timing entirely. Flagbearer modifies the morale bonus the feat grants. It does this before anyone actually benefits from the feat, so it doesn't matter if a courageous weapon is out or not.

Courageous kicks in once you receive the morale bonus.

==Aelryinth


FWIW, this is the response I received when I raised the issue with Lone Wolf (the developers of Hero Lab):

Quote:
Increasing the effectiveness of every other morale bonus on the character would be an incredibly large benefit, and would be worth far more than a +1 enhancement. My reading of this ability is that if anything else grants a morale bonus to saves vs. fear, that specific bonus gets improved, which keeps this enhancement useful when someone casts bless.


Plenty of abilities outweigh their cost in effectiveness and power. I don't see how this is any different.

Grand Lodge

So, Herolab doesn't think it improves the Barbarian's Morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, Herolab doesn't think it improves the Barbarian's Morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution?

I haven't checked it recently, but as of January of this year, yes.

Grand Lodge

Crap.

Is there a way to change that?

I just invested a crap load into Herolab recently.


You can make adjustments and add them manually. Or you can modify or make your own Courageous weapon ability using the editor. The latter will provide a permanent solution that will scale with the character and any new bonuses. The former is a hell of a lot easier.


BTW, for those clicking this for FAQ, here was my previous thread on the subject. It was marked as "no reply required."


Aelryinth wrote:

Modifying the morale bonus granted by the feat IS modifying the feat..it's changing the effect of the feat. Nothing changes. The bonus is modified at source, before anyone receives it, and then Courageous kicks in.

Your bull's strength benefit is off kilter. You have something in there that modifies the effect bull's strength grants, the additional damage from an increased Strength, but you have nothing that specifically references what Bull's Strength does, i.e. what the Banner does for the Flagbearer feat.

The increased bonus from using two hands is more akin to Courageous, but I notice you didn't try to make the argument that the 1.5 multiplier to Str damage should be increased by +3 from Courageous. Why? Because the effect is derived from Strength, and COurageous increases the morale bonus to Strength, not the mechanical and very un-morale related increase to damage from two handing.

So, bad example.

I know what you're trying to argue, and cause a conflict on.

Flagbearer walks into an area. The guy next to him has the +4 Furious Courageous weapon drawn. His morale bonus is +4, +1 From the flagbearer feat and +3 enhanced by the sword.

Flagbearer sees the royal standard on the ground, rushes to pick it up. Banner says double the bonus from Flagbearer feat. Flagbearer is now at +2, and his friend DOUBLES to +8.

His friend puts away his sword. His bonus falls to +2. the enemy closes in, and he draws his sword again. He's now at +5.

That's pretty much the situation you are trying to argue with a timing issue. The solution, of course, is to ignore the timing entirely. Flagbearer modifies the morale bonus the feat grants. It does this before anyone actually benefits from the feat, so it doesn't matter if a courageous weapon is out or not.

Courageous kicks in once you receive the morale bonus.

==Aelryinth

No, I didn't try to say the two-handed multiplies the bonus from Courageous by 1.5 because two-handed only applies to strength bonuses (not bonuses of other types), in the same way Courageous only applies to morale bonuses. And the bonus from two-handed weapons is not akin to the bonus from Courageous. Courageous adds, two-handed multiplies.

The two-handed 1.5 multiplier is akin to the Banner x2 multiplier. One applies to strength bonus to damage, the other applies to morale bonuses granted/gained from the Flagbearer feat.

The Bull Strength spell is akin to the Courageous Weapon enhancement. Or heck, if you wanted make it even more akin, forget the spell... lets say you have a unique magical sword that grants you +4 Strength whenever you wield it. That +4 strength includes inherently +2 strength bonus to damage.

Again, the formula is simple: Bonus A (Strength Bonus OR Morale Bonus) + Additive Modifier to Bonus B (Bull Strength/Weapon Mod OR Courageous) x Multiplicative Modifier to Bonus C (Two-Handed Weapon OR Banner).

That can be calculated either as either C(A+B) or (AC)+B depending upon the order of operations. With the Strength bonus/Bull Strength/two-handed weapon example, it is 100% clear that C(A+B) is the option used. This doesn't necessarily mean that is true of other things (including Flagbearer/Courageous/Banner) however. It is merely an example. Perhaps its an exception to the norm. However, I can find no other example to compare.

As for causing conflict, I'm not trying to cause any conflict. I'm simply saying the RAW (and to my knowledge the RAI) do not explicitly or implicitly support the idea that Courageous necessarily gets added after Banner rather than before it. I believe we are both now agreed that timing should not matter. The only difference is that you're saying timing should not matter AND as such Courageous is always added after Banner. I'm not arguing either way, but I'm acknowledging that with timing not mattering, it could work the way you suggest or it could be that you always add Courageous before Banner.

The rules, as far as I can tell are silent/ambiguous on this point (save for the example of the two-handed weapon, which isn't necessarily controlling).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

tomorrow wrote:


No, I didn't try to say the two-handed multiplies the bonus from Courageous by 1.5 because two-handed only applies to strength bonuses (not bonuses of...

I'm not seeing your justification through.

Bull's Strength = Your morale bonus. It is what is added to the character by the effect of the spell...an outside force coming in and changing the rules. This is entirely the point of order of operations, and granting/receiving an effect. Trying to equate Bull's Strength to Courageous doesn't fly. Bull's Strength can modify an effect that is not there, or an effect that IS there (a character's str bonus derived from Str score.)

Courageous and 2h Str bonus have no effect whatsoever if there is no effect for them to work on. Someone going from a 6 to a 10 doesn't get any benefit from two handing something.

Courageous will always modify the amount of a morale bonus. 2h'ing will not always modify the amount of damage and it certainly doesn't modify the Str score itself, i.e. your Bull's Strength isn't suddenly buffed by +6 if you go 2h. It's not a good example.

Secondly, Bull's Strength is an effect bestowed by an outside force, like the flagbearer feat. You cannot modify the effect until it has been received/cast on you. This is how Courageous works, and how 2h'ing works, too.

Furthermore, 2h'ing is derived from your Strength bonus, but Bull's Strength modifies your Strength SCORE. Flagbearer gives a morale bonus, and Courageous modifies a morale bonus in any form it takes. The Banner modifies the bonus being a Flagbearer grants.

I gave the examples above of how it would have to work if order of operations was optional. You would get into the ridiculous situation of the Flagbearer dropping the Banner and picking it back up so his pals could go from +5 to +8.

If you simply measure the effect from giver to recepient, it simply goes giver grants +1, giver grants +2, recepient receives +2, recepient modifies to +5. Giver/recepient hold true every time.

To make your example work, you'd have to have a broad carrier effect that multiplied all Strength enhancement spells in the area by +50%. Then you'd have to have another ability of someone or some item in that area that add +x to any Strength Enhancement used on them. At which time you'd either get into timing ridiculousness again, or run granter/recepient properly.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:


I'm not seeing your justification through.

I'm not seeking a justification. I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just saying the rules are not clear which way is correct.

Aelryinth wrote:


Bull's Strength = Your morale bonus. It is what is added to the character by the effect of the spell...an outside force coming in and changing the rules. This is entirely the point of order of operations, and granting/receiving an effect. Trying to equate Bull's Strength to Courageous doesn't fly. Bull's Strength can modify an effect that is not there, or an effect that IS there (a character's str bonus derived from Str score.)

Again, I'm not sure how that's relevant. I find nothing in the rules that supports a grant/gain or grant/receive dichotomy dictating anything. That is pure supposition on your part (unless you can actually cite something here).

However, even it were true, that would only apply to others receiving the morale bonus and not yourself. Because "your morale bonus" when referring to your Flagbearer feat is coming from you. If you have the Flagbearer feat you are both the granter and the receiver. Once you have that feat, its as inherent to you as your Strength score is. It is a part you, you grant the bonus to yourself the same way you grant your own strength bonus to yourself. You are not an outside force to yourself.

Aelryinth wrote:


Courageous and 2h Str bonus have no effect whatsoever if there is no effect for them to work on. Someone going from a 6 to a 10 doesn't get any benefit from two handing something.

Yes. For a multiplicative bonus (like the Banner or wielding a two-handed weapon) to apply there must first be a non-zero attribute for it to apply to. That's basic math. And in D&D as negatives are treated as penalties rather than bonuses (different things), you don't multiply them when the multiplier stipulates a bonus. If there is no positive morale bonus from a Flagbearer character, then Banner does not apply. If there is no positive strength score on a character with a two-handed weapon, its 1.5 doesn't apply.

Aelryinth wrote:
Courageous will always modify the amount of a morale bonus. 2h'ing will not always modify the amount of damage and it certainly doesn't modify the Str score itself, i.e. your Bull's Strength isn't suddenly buffed by +6 if you go 2h. It's not a good example.

Courageous will only modify the morale bonus when the weapon is wielded and when there is a morale bonus to be augmented; not always, only when wielded and a morale bonus is present. Two-handed weapons will only modify the "strength bonus to damage" when the weapon is wielded (in two hands of course) and when there is a strength bonus to damage to be augmented; not always, only when wielded (in two hands) and a strength bonus to damage is present.

Likewise, of course Bull Strength isn't modified to +6, because Bull Strength is not a "Strength bonus to damage". However, one of the things the spell inherently provides is a +2 strength bonus to damage (provided, of course, the existing bonus is already not negative, much akin to Courageous only granting a bonus if there is already a non-zero bonus in place). This additive modifier to the pre-existing Strength bonus to damage is indisputably added to the existing strength bonus before the multiplier from wielding a two-handed weapon applied, regardless of whether or not you began wielding the weapon before, during, or after the casting of the spell.

Aelryinth wrote:
Secondly, Bull's Strength is an effect bestowed by an outside force, like the flagbearer feat. You cannot modify the effect until it has been received/cast on you. This is how Courageous works, and how 2h'ing works, too.

Again, Flagbearer might be an "outside force" to others, but it is certainly not an "outside force" to the possessor of the feat. They are both the grantor and a receiver, the bonus comes from them, the flag itself is just a piece of cloth on a stick (it grants nothing). The two-handed weapon bonus isn't so much an outside force as a fundamental mechanic. Nothing creates it per se, save the laws of physics in the game universe. It's just there. But again, I see no utility in focusing upon grantor/receiver or internal/outside force. There is nothing anywhere indicating that this matters.

Aelryinth wrote:


Furthermore, 2h'ing is derived from your Strength bonus, but Bull's Strength modifies your Strength SCORE. Flagbearer gives a morale bonus, and Courageous modifies a morale bonus in any form it takes. The Banner modifies the bonus being a Flagbearer grants.

I gave the examples above of how it would have to work if order of operations was optional. You would get into the ridiculous situation of the Flagbearer dropping the Banner and picking it back up so his pals could go from +5 to +8.

If you simply measure the effect from giver to recepient, it simply goes giver grants +1, giver grants +2, recepient receives +2, recepient modifies to +5. Giver/recepient hold true every time.

1.) A modification to Strength SCORE includes a modification to "strength bonus to damage".

2.) Yes, as I've said, your suggestion does provide ONE example of way to keep the numbers stable by ignoring the timing (i.e. the dropping and picking up the banner, or the pulling weapons before or after the banner is up). But you could just as validly always apply the additive Courageous bonus first and still have non-variable results (just higher ones). When the friends draw their weapons, their +3 is always doubled to +6 when the Banner is out along with the rest of the Flagbearer bonus, regardless of whether the Banner came out first or was picked up in mid-battle later.

A) Flagbearer without Banner - he grants and receives +1, allies receive +1.
B) Ally pulls out Courageous +2 weapon = that ally now receives +2.
C) Flagbearer miraculously finds Banner midbattle (very friendly DM) = he grants and receives +2, most of his allies receive +2, his ally with the Courageous +2 weapon receives +4.
D) Another ally finds a Courageous +4 weapon = that ally recieves +6.
E) The uber-friendly DM allows Flagbearer to go up a level in midbattle and he gains the Improved Eldritch Heritage (Heroic Echoes) feat = now he receives +4.
F) Flagbearer uses an immediate action to give his Heroic Echos bonus modification to nearby allies too = now he grants and receives +4, his ally with the Courageous +2 weapon receives +6, and his ally with the Courageous +4 weapon receives +8

There is no variation... well some, but that's because the effects all have durations and areas and that's the nature of the game... but no changes based upon when received or when granted, its just additions first and then multiplications, period. Which doesn't mean its correct way, but its every bit as valid as your suggestion (unless you have actual evidence rather than opinion or inclination to the contrary). The rules simply aren't clear.

Aelryinth wrote:


To make your example work, you'd have to have a broad carrier effect that multiplied all Strength enhancement spells in the area by +50%. Then you'd have to have another ability of someone or some item in that area that add +x to any Strength Enhancement used on them. At which time you'd either get into timing ridiculousness again, or run granter/recepient properly.

No, to make the circumstances one-hundred percent identical you'd have to have an example like that. Identical facts are not necessary to be supportive.

The example is simple (though increasingly convoluted the more one tries to account for inside/outside).

You have a bonus (a strength bonus to damage; which itself could come from an outside source... maybe you've magic jar'd yourself into someoneelse's body or use 3.5 version of wildshape/polymorph), you have one effect that increases that bonus in an additive fashion (Bull Strength, an outside source... or maybe four inherent bonus increases from levels or books, non-outside sources... which among other things grants you +2 strength bonus to damage, presuming there already is a strength bonus or the potential for one), and you have another effect that increases that bonus in a multiplicative fashion (two-handed weapons multiple your strength bonus to damage by 1.5... of if you need a purely non-outside source a unique feat allows you to hammerblow multipling your strength damage to unarmed damage by 1.5 whenever you use two-hands to make one attack... ya know, whatever; inside/outside is no more helpful than grant/gain, they are distinctions without a point).

Anyway, three simple steps. That is all.

This example shows us that regardless of the outside/inside nature of the bonuses and regardless of what order they come in time, in this particular case (strength bonus to damage) you always do additions before multiplications. HOWEVER, this may not apply to all situations. It is but one easy example. There may be other contrary examples, but I have yet to find any.

Again, I'm not arguing this is correct. I've been told its correct by others and I've found some support for it in the rules, but I'm not discounting the possibility that it might still nonetheless be incorrect and that there is a rule or example that shows this. I just haven't seen it yet.

Assistant Software Developer

I removed a post and a reply to it. Do not use the word "retarded" in that way.


In mathematics, the order of operation is multiplication then addition.

So the Banner of the Ancient Kings doubles the morale bonus (multiplication) then Courageous increases it (addition).

It's 2x+y where x is the morale bonus from Flagbearer and y is the increase from Courageous weapon. Not 2(x+y). There you are assuming some favorable parentheses that nothing in the rules indicate you get.


Clicked the FAQ button as well. Redward's thread being marked "No response required" doesn't seem proper; this is at least the fourth thread that I came across in searching asking this same question, and while the consensus seems to be "all morale bonuses", there's obviously some confusion on whether it means that or only to fear affects.

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