Double Slice and Power Attack


Rules Questions


Does Double Slice stack with Power Attack?

Double Slice grants full STR bonus to Off-hand attacks; if you use it in conjunction with Power Attack, is the Off-hand damage calculated at full strength as well?


Spoiler:
Power Attack (Combat)

You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.

Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Emphasis mine.

Yes, Double Slice and Power Attack will both boost the offhand attack's damage.

Mind you, the penalty for power attack also applies to all attacks.


Power Attack wrote:
This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an [Power] attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

The above line is what gives me pause.

DeltaOneG wrote:

Yes, Double Slice and Power Attack will both boost the offhand attack's damage.

Mind you, the penalty for power attack also applies to all attacks.

Oh yes, I am quite aware of the PA penalty (and that it certainly stacks with the TWF penalty). In the case of TWF, you're trading attack mods for the chance at rolling more attack dice. I'm okay with that.


Well there I go again, not reading all the way through.

Looks like, RAW, the answer is no. I suspect that RAI is yes.


Yes - RAW clearly states that Off-hand PA's do half-damage. As a DM, I would allow that damage to be raised to 100% if a PC buys Double Slice. I'm confident that both of the DM's that I play with would agree.

As you say, I think RAI tend to support Double Slice affecting Power Attack in this manner.

Anyone else have an opinion? Dissenters are welcome.:)


it needs to be noted that the off-hand weapon should only be at half damage from PA if and only if the character is using the two weapon fighting style (feat or not)

if lets say, i have a BAB of +6 and am afforded a second attack at +1 BAB, i am allowed to make that attack with a different weapon than my first, if i am holding one

for instance, if lets say i am equipped with 2 longswords and i attack with the first one NOT using TWF, then i get the +2 from PA, and if i make my second attack with the other, i should get the full +2 damage

thus, the only way to halve power attacks damage is by using TWF
RAW it was designed to always do the same amount of damage regardless of whether or not you were using one weapon in two hands, or two weapons

should there be any official interjection into the relationship between these feats, i would probly guess that we would get another feat that requires both Power Attack and Double Slice as pre-reqs and lets you add in that extra damage

im also in the camp that we should be allowed to take Greater Power Attack as a feat, those 2 feats existing would make both combat styles equal in damage, with the exception of the damage dice and the .5 STR mod that you get from double slice, but when you dump extra feats into a style you should get more out of it


master_marshmallow wrote:
RAW it was designed to always do the same amount of damage regardless of whether or not you were using one weapon in two hands, or two weapons

Okay - I hate to agree here, but I do. You're quite right :(

As for buying an additional Feat with DS and PA being pre-reqs, that's a minor issue for a Fighter, maybe a bigger issue for a Rogue.

Having PA effectively do 2x damage, should you hit with both attacks, is a nice advantage. But isn't that advantage already paid for via the additional Feat (Double Slice) and the fact that your second strike is uncertain?


PRD wrote:


Double Slice wrote:

Your off-hand weapon while dual-wielding strikes with greater power.

Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand.

i suppose one could suggest an errata along the lines of

Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: Your off hand weapon deals full damage rather than half. (You add your full Strength bonus to damage rolls and the additional damage from Power Attack and other such feats is no longer reduced by 50% on damage rolls.)
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand and the additional damage from Power Attack is reduced by 50%.

kind of reminds me of the feat Ambidexterity from 3.0

but I'm only ok with this as long as theres an equivalent for two-handed fighting i.e. we make greater power attack a feat

Quote:


Two-Handed Fighter wrote:
Greater Power Attack wrote:


At 15th level, when using Power Attack with a two-handed melee weapon, the bonus damage from Power Attack is doubled (+100%) instead of increased by half (+50%).

making you wait until 15th level, when you can take double slice as soon as you have TWF isnt really fair

I propose:

Greater Power Attack
You have mastered swinging a melee weapon with 2 hands, and can maximize the damage you deal.
Prerequisites: STR 15, Power Attack
Benefit: When using Power Attack with a two-handed melee weapon, the bonus damage from Power Attack is doubled (+100%).
Normal: When using Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, you add half (50%) of the damage from Power attack.

I made the feat mirror Double Slice in prereqs, so that if a person wanted to compare the feat trees they would be even


loaba wrote:

I think RAI tend to support Double Slice affecting Power Attack in this manner.

Anyone else have an opinion? Dissenters are welcome.:)

Are you saying that you think double slice is written incorrectly, or power attack is? In either case, what makes you think the RAI differs from what is written?

If the intent was for double slice to make you deal full damage, wouldn't they have said it deals full damage, instead of having it say "Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls"?

Or, if the intent was for PA to only reduce the bonus damage on attacks that gain half strength, why wouldn't they have said so? The only time it mentions strength bonus is for some primary natural attacks, and that's only to specify which ones it means (creatures with only one natural attack that cannot make multiple attacks with it).


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master_marshmallow wrote:
it needs to be noted that the off-hand weapon should only be at half damage from PA if and only if the character is using the two weapon fighting style (feat or not)

Main-hand and off-hand only apply if you're using two-weapon fighting. Even if you have Longsword A in one hand and Longsword B in the other, neither one is inherently your main-hand or your off-hand. You can make your first iterative attack with Longsword A as main-hand and the second with Longsword B also as main-hand. One is only considered an off-hand when it is used as such in TWF.

That having been said, you'd calculate the bonuses as such:

Main-Hand: Base Damage + Full Power Attack + Full Strength
Off-hand: Base Damage + Half Power Attack + Full Strength

This is because the Power Attack bonus isn't linked to the strength bonus. For example, a Monk flurrying with a 2-h weapon would only get 1x strength due to flurry, but would still get 1.5x power attack. How you adjudicate the Power Attack bonus damage is determined solely by how you're wielding your weapon; 1.5x as 2-h, 0.5x as off-hand, 1.0x for all other cases.


Kazaan is correct...PA isnt based off your strength...double slice itself gives you extra damage...it says nothing about affecting PA and PA says nothing about working along with double slice...if they were meant to interact together THEY WOULD SAY SO lol


I'm aware of this
RAW makes it difficult to slip up as both the damage from PA and the bonus from Double Slice are mutually exclusive animals

i think OP was looking for some affirmation on his opinion that double slice should also infer full power attack on the off hand weapon, which, given RAI, could be argued to make sense, and ive seen many house rules that incorporate this interpretation

Personally, i would not allow Double Slice to actually double the damage from power attack unless there was a way for 2 handers to get the same kind of output from it, hence my homebrewed reiteration of GPA above


I agree that they were originally written to NOT work together in a synergistic way - double slice only effects strength to damage, not how power attack works. This was done to keep the damage all working the same way.

That said, with the recent clarification that monks can utilize a single two handed weapon (temple sword, primarily) for every attack made during a flurry of blows, it is now possible for some class (the monk) to get full strength (double slice) and even better power attack (-1/+3 as opposed to -1/+2 and -1/+1 that you currently get.)

Also, given how many feats you have to sink into the two weapon fighting style (at least 4 to get to double slice and power attack), compared to how many you need to pick up a big two handed and smack people with it (only 1), would it be a horrible thing to give a small buff to the double slice feat? Probably not.

RAW - Definitely do not work together.

Original RAI - 99% not intended since the wording isn't that tricky.

However, it would be 100% reasonable to house rule it another way, and it also would not surprise me to see the wording of double slice changed (or another feat added, potentially) to allow this to work.

EDIT:

master marshmallow wrote:
Personally, i would not allow Double Slice to actually double the damage from power attack unless there was a way for 2 handers to get the same kind of output from it, hence my homebrewed reiteration of GPA above

You mean like the monk flurrying with a Temple Sword getting -1/+3 from power attack on each and every one of his attacks?


ok if you are simply here to justify your own homebrew rule then why even ask about it on the rules thread...my comments are on the rules not on my personal opinions on the rules...as I stated they do not work together as the rules go

HOWEVER...since we are arguing our own homebrew stuff and such I will say that if I were GM I would probably allow it since its really not a big difference in damage...I am also for increasing difficulty of encounters if my players want to min/max their way to victory...never to the point of party wipeout but if someone cares more about DPR instead of playing the character they made (as what roleplaying games are for...ppl tend to forget that) then I will care less about their character beyond how much of a cannon he can be lol


monk temple sword and fighter archetypes are the only way to net that kind of damage, which is fine for right now imo

im just saying if you give double slice the bump in question, then TWF becomes clearly more powerful than power attack (it already is for 1/2 your STR)

also im pretty sure it only takes 3 feats to do 2 weapon fighting and get most damage

TWF
PA
DS

the reason you do TWF in the first place is to get extra attacks

double slice already makes twf + PA more powerful than 2 handed PA

still, its a lot better than 3.5 where you got NO damage for your off hand weapon and DOUBLE for a 2 handed

its what made 2 handed so much better back then, now the roles are reversed, albeit more expensive (but we get more feats now too)
i dont want to just shift the balance over to TWF being better, id prefer to balance it so that both are equally viable, and pathfinder actually does a pretty good job of that

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