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I've been thinking about trying out some archetypes, or at least a less common build lately. One thing that came to mind was a Cad, or some other type of Fighter (Brawler seems most likely) that specializes in either single or dual-wielded daggers.
This is basically a thread for thought experiments. As near as I can tell, the humble Dagger has the following advantages as a weapon:
- It deals both Pierching and Slashing damage
- It can be used as a Thrown weapon without improvising
- It's cheap
- It's a light weapon, so in an off-hand the penalty will be low
- It crits on a 19-20, so with Keen you'd have a 20% chance to crit
It also has some disadvantages:
- Low damage die
- It's a light weapon, so Power Attack is off the table
- There is no mechanical benefit to dual-wielding a pair of light weapons
- All the other Fighters will laugh at you
Now, why be a fighter instead of a Rogue if you want to be a dagger guy?
- Weapon Specialization damage
- Superior CMB/CMD
- Lots of Feats
Looking at the Fighter archetypes, the best synergy that I can see is with the Brawler, who gets a +3(!) bonus to damage with all close combat weapons. They also get some bonuses to CMB for bull rushing and reposition, so I can begin to see a Fighter built around Manuevers and battlefield control, but it still leaves us with the question: why do this with daggers?
The Cad seems like it would fit well with the theme of a Dagger fighter, but I have my doubts about it as an archetype. You're giving up medium and heavy armor, plus tower shields, all for 5 extra class skills and no extra skill points. And a bonus to Dirty Tricks. I love the concept, but it really just seems like a poor-man's Rogue.
Two-Weapon Fighter has some synergy, but why bother with two daggers in that case? Surely longsword/shortsword is a better combo in that case.
Any suggestions?
You may not be able to use Power Attack, but Piranha Strike and the Agile weapon enhancement can help with that.
The benefit of using the same weapon in both hands is rather simple: Weapon Focus/Specialization applies to both of them.
Example: A fighter using a longsword and a dagger would need Weapon Focus/Specialization for both weapons, costing him feats the fighter using two daggers will use for something else.
Of course, the feat I mention earlier(Piranha Strike) only works with light weapons, so why not use two daggers?[
Design Manager
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The really nice thing about a dagger(or starknife) fighter, is going to be that feats like Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus, and class abilities like Weapon Training, are going to apply to both your ranged and melee attacks, and you'll be adding your Strength to ranged damage automatically. You can mix in a few ranged feats without needing to develop the whole tree like you typically would with a bow or crossbow, and there's just a lot of places you can go with it.
Weapon die size is one of the least important factors for a fighters damage, as his static bonuses will quickly be accounting for the majority of his damage anyways. The real key to damage dealing is your total number of Full Attacks each combat, and having the ability to attack in range and melee with the same weapons can serve to augment your ability to make those full attacks.
I've seen some dagger wielding fighters who were very effective, and while they didn't necessarily do as much damage per hit as some of the other builds, they can stay pretty competitive over-all.
The real advantage of this build is the ability to fight and win in close quarters where there is not enough room to draw and wield larger weapons. In restrictive areas like small tunnels and the like the dagger is the ideal weapon.
Maby make a tunnel rat fighter.
I agree on Cad being mechanically terrible, even if it is interesting. Tactician seems like a much better option for a Fighter who wants skills. Brawler certainly looks like the best option, and it doesn't lose any armor proficiencies (I think I'd still probably be looking at Medium armor though, to keep the dex up)
I'm aware that Power Attack works with daggers, but I wasn't sure it'd still be worth it...piranha strike sounds interesting, but perhaps Power Attack would be wiser just in case practicality forces me to switch weapons for a fight (e.g. I need bludgeoning damage).
I could definitely see the advantages of reducing the number of focus/spec feats necessary, and the thrown weapons...I'm trying to find feats that extend the range increment, but I'm coming up short. Best I could find was a reduction to the penalties in Ultimate Combat.
The real advantage of this build is the ability to fight and win in close quarters where there is not enough room to draw and wield larger weapons. In restrictive areas like small tunnels and the like the dagger is the ideal weapon.
Maby make a tunnel rat fighter.
Realistically, yes. Mechanically however, there are no advantages associated with smaller weapons in Pathfinder; even if you're Squeezing in a 2 ft. wide tunnel, you can swing a 6 ft. greatsword just as easy as you can stab with a 6 inch dagger.
The mechanical benefit in my mind is that all of those focus, specialization and critical feats that apply to only one weapon will apply to both of the weapons you wield. damage die is no where near as important as the chance for your iterative attacks to hit and how high you can get your static bonuses.
Here is a link to a recently posted Weaponmaster (Dagger) build... admittedly a little thrown together but a clear example of how effective it can be - of course, that's pretty much all he can do. The appeal of non-fighter fighters is that they can do more than dominate the low to mid-level battlefield.
Realistically, yes. Mechanically however, there are no advantages associated with smaller weapons in Pathfinder; even if you're Squeezing in a 2 ft. wide tunnel, you can swing a 6 ft. greatsword just as easy as you can stab with a 6 inch dagger.The real advantage of this build is the ability to fight and win in close quarters where there is not enough room to draw and wield larger weapons. In restrictive areas like small tunnels and the like the dagger is the ideal weapon.
Maby make a tunnel rat fighter.
Well that's debatable, while 1E had specific rules for this, just because a current rules set doesn't specifically say anything about it, doesn't mean a DM can't use those rules (I do).
the weapons specific rules of 1E (space to use a weapon and +/- to hit specific armor types) wasn't repeated in later editions because of the sheer numbers of gamers who simply didn't bother to use these and a myriad of other over complicated rules.
However there are several commonsense rulings that would prevent one from using larger weapons in some cases.
This topic came up a little over a year ago fighting in goblin warrens, and saw a ranger with tons of bow feats using a crossbow (because his longbow was too big) and a TWF inquisitor dropping to daggers because she couldnt adequately swing her katana.
If a Weapon is 6Ft and you are in a 5ft square, confined, logic would dictate you can't use the weapon fully, effectively. I have some times imposed a slight to hit penalty, or a damage reduction for not being able to get in a full swing etc, sometimes the player switches to a different weapon or just bull rushes the target past the confining space.... it's just another obstacle to maneuver.
Halfings with shortswords and daggers don't have the issue.
I had a very successful halfling fighter that really used space to his advantage in many places in CoT AP.
Another pro for dagger- able to use while grappled.
The Standard Fighter is excellent. Though IIRC the Dagger is in the Close Weapon Group meaning you could go Brawler.
Dual class Mobile Fighter and Knife Master Rogue...bonus points for dressing like Riddick and making your own Shivs.
I've been meaning to make a duelist with an agile dagger for some time... Just haven't gotten around to it.
Meh... the actual damage die doesn't really matter if you're a Fighter or Rogue. In the case of the Fighter, you're looking to grow your overall damage modifier. With a Rogue, you want to get as many Sneak dice as possible.
If it were me, I'd go with a high STR, min required DEX for TWFing and twin Kukris (d4, high crit range).
I think they were in 2e cause I remenber rules like that And I basically never played 1e.
the weapons specific rules of 1E (space to use a weapon and +/- to hit specific armor types) wasn't repeated in later editions because of the sheer numbers of gamers who simply didn't bother to use these and a myriad of other over complicated rules.
2e was just basically 1e with non weapon proficiencies and reprinted books to make more money.
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2e was just basically 1e with non weapon proficiencies and reprinted books to make more money.
Don't forget the Elvish Cavaliers. 2e did that too. :P
The Standard Fighter is excellent. Though IIRC the Dagger is in the Close Weapon Group meaning you could go Brawler.
Sadly, neither the dagger nor the kukri are in the close weapon group, though punching daggers are.
The Standard Fighter is excellent. Though IIRC the Dagger is in the Close Weapon Group meaning you could go Brawler.Sadly, neither the dagger nor the kukri are in the close weapon group, though punching daggers are.
Sorry was thinking Cestus there... Daggers are better in the Throwing Group as it has the Most Weapons that can easily be wielded. Though the Monk Group has the Most entirely IIRC.
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Optimized? No. Viable? Most definitely.
Optimized? No. Viable? Most definitely.
Optimized would be what? Anything other than an Exotic Weapon and a suitable Light weapon?
/not trying to start crap - trying to pin down what the hell "optimize" means.
OP - you could maintain your "bastard" identity by using a Bastard Sword and, say, a Short Sword. They're both great weapons.
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Seems like it could be nifty. Makes me remember I always wanted to play that guy from the Blade of the Flame series (Eberron-based. He was like a former assassin-cum-Cleric or summat it's been a while since I read it) who carried around a small arsenal of daggers of all kinds (silver, adamantine, wood, poisoned, etc.) and used them equally by TWF and throwing. Seems like it could be decently effective, and REALLY fun.
Optimized? No. Viable? Most definitely.Optimized would be what? Anything other than an Exotic Weapon and a suitable Light weapon?
/not trying to start crap - trying to pin down what the hell "optimize" means.
Always choosing the best, mechanically superior option possible to achieve maximum effectiveness in a certain area of expertise.
Seems like it could be nifty. Makes me remember I always wanted to play that guy from the Blade of the Flame series (Eberron-based. He was like a former assassin-cum-Cleric or summat it's been a while since I read it) who carried around a small arsenal of daggers of all kinds (silver, adamantine, wood, poisoned, etc.) and used them equally by TWF and throwing. Seems like it could be decently effective, and REALLY fun.
Always choosing the best, mechanically superior option possible to achieve maximum effectiveness in a certain area of expertise.Optimized? No. Viable? Most definitely.Optimized would be what? Anything other than an Exotic Weapon and a suitable Light weapon?
/not trying to start crap - trying to pin down what the hell "optimize" means.
Then what Bastard Sword wielding Adventure wouldn't see the wisdom in slapping a second, smaller and lighter, weapon in his off-hand?
OP - go for the -2/-2, man! When you're feeling like bringing the pain, get a second paw on that big sword and go to town. When you're feeling all Elvy and stuff, dazzle 'em with your TWF skills. You're a Half-elf, role/roll with it.
But he's not a Bastard Sword wielding adventurer. He's a Dagger wielding adventurer. Says so in the title of the thread.
Hence the comments of "Viable, but not optimized".
Also pretty sure when talking sheer optimization, Falchion > Bastard Sword anyway.
But he's not a Bastard Sword wielding adventurer. He's a Dagger wielding adventurer. Says so in the title of the thread.
Hence the comments of "Viable, but not optimized".
Also pretty sure when talking sheer optimization, Falchion > Bastard Sword anyway.
Oh dear... I think I've posted in the wrong thread...
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TheKnife Fighter archetype from a contest here on the boards always seemed like it could be fun.
yea i got dagger/bastard sword turned around too... dancing between both threads ahahaha.
2nd edition fighter specialized in daggers were amazing. 7 daggers thrown by level 5
Damn, I had been sure that daggers were in the Close group...oh well. It's tempting to pick up the Thrown group, but then the temptation to just switch to chakrams (1d8 damage on a weapon that size? outrageous).
Brawler is out of the question then, but I suppose Weapon Master and Two-Weapon Warrior are still on the table. Thanks for all of the advice, guys.
Is it possible to make a dual-dagger or dual-kukri Ranger or Inquisitor that is viable? I wanted to make a character based on a Nepali scout and/or jungle fighter or some kind of outdoorsman to whom dual kukris might make sense. Also I like the animal companion and tracking hunting features of the Ranger (or an Inquisitor with the Animal domain).
I just wonder if such a thing (dual kukri or dual dagger ranger or inquisitor) would work, instead of fighter or rogue?
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Realistically, yes. Mechanically however, there are no advantages associated with smaller weapons in Pathfinder; ***
That's not strictly true. If you are grappling and you happen to be wielding light or one-handed weapons you'll be in a much better position to deal damage than if you're using a two-handed weapon, which you won't be able to attack with. So a dagger fighter who gets grappled by an enemy can still full attack with his weapons, while a greatsword fighter is pretty much limited to making a CMB check to break or reverse the grapple, or making an Escape Artist check.
I'd honestly go with Kukri, same style of fighting but with scarier weapons.
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Realistically, yes. Mechanically however, there are no advantages associated with smaller weapons in Pathfinder; even if you're Squeezing in a 2 ft. wide tunnel, you can swing a 6 ft. greatsword just as easy as you can stab with a 6 inch dagger.The real advantage of this build is the ability to fight and win in close quarters where there is not enough room to draw and wield larger weapons. In restrictive areas like small tunnels and the like the dagger is the ideal weapon.
Maby make a tunnel rat fighter.
Purely using RAW, yeah. But reasonable players, when told that they can't use a great sword in such conditions accept that the GM is trying to have some semblance of plausibility. Unreasonable players come to these forums and start GM hate threads because they can't use a pole arm while squeezing through a rat tunnel.
while giving up weapon training (and, as such, duelist's gloves) hurts, i think two-weapon fighter might be a good way to go. the strength of daggers is how much mileage you get from one set of feats and abilities- focus/specialization/imp. crit all work on both of your twf weapons, and on your ranged attacks... you'd need to be a fighter too, cause a build like this is still super feat intensive. take all the aforementioned feats, all the twf feats (including rend), point blank shot, anything to increase static damage bonus (like power attack and deadly aim); and take combat reflexes and improved snap shot! snap shot will just be a feat tax since you'll already threaten 5', but with improved snap shot you'll threaten out to 15' which should score you lots of AoOs- each of which will get you 2 attacks (from the archetype), and could even trigger rend if you haven't already used it...
1d4+12 or 15 (or whatever) might not seem like much at around 13th level, when the guy with the greatsword is doing 2d6+20 or 30, but when he gets 3 attacks (4 with haste, 5 if someone provokes) and you get 6+rend (7 with haste), and potentially 8 to 12 more from AoOs if anyone wants to move/cast/stand up within 15' of you (since each AoOs gets you 2 attacks)- suddenly that lower damage per swing thing may not be as big a deal. even before you double up on the AoOs (@13th), you'll still be getting enough extra attacks that it should make up for the per swing difference. the only problem with the build is the sheer volume of daggers you'll need for all your AoOs (and, obviously, you'll need Quick Draw). you'll also get more full attacks than most melee fighters (since you can throw your daggers instead of moving) and things won't easily be able to run from you (with your increased threat area).
1d8 damage on a weapon that size? outrageous.
A flying chakram can decapitate a person outright. A flying dagger could never do that, at least not in one stroke. 1d8 damage sounds perfectly justified to me.
8 levels of Knife Master + Scout (Rogue Archetypes) into fighter. Take Spring Attack and Shot on the Run for easy damage while moving. Put points into acrobatics to make tumble checks.
There was a 3rd party book by four winds fantasy stratagists and tacticians that had a feat called drive and turn or something of the sort where you could penalyze an apponent after stabbing them with a piercing weapon and making a cmb check. I had a fighter straight fighter in my last campaign use this feat to go two weapon daggers because the cheap, small, light weapons meant he could have like a dozen in a bandalier and leave them in opponents.
Dual wield Gladius...use Shortsword for feat treee and deal both Slashing and Piercing damage.
Think gawaine from the movie "King Arthur"...the one with Clive Owen
Straight Fighter with minimun Dex to get Improved TWF...go to town
A lot of polearm can be used to thrust, they should not have a penalty if the roof is too low for example.A greataxe/sword need more space to maneuver.
Now make that polearm user turn around in a tunnel and fight going the other way with the blunt end of his weapon.
2nd edition fighter specialized in daggers were amazing. 7 daggers thrown by level 5
Let me see:
Two weapon fighting, rapid shot, improved twf and BAB by level 6 would give you only 5 daggers.... that does seem pretty impressive huh.
Don't forget the returning property. Get 2 and enchant as you see fit. Keep spares to overcome different DR and resistances. Carry so many extras that it looks like you are wearing spiked armor. In fact, play a dwarf in heavy armor just because, hey, you are awesome!
while giving up weapon training (and, as such, duelist's gloves) hurts, i think two-weapon fighter might be a good way to go. the strength of daggers is how much mileage you get from one set of feats and abilities- focus/specialization/imp. crit all work on both of your twf weapons, and on your ranged attacks... you'd need to be a fighter too, cause a build like this is still super feat intensive. take all the aforementioned feats, all the twf feats (including rend), point blank shot, anything to increase static damage bonus (like power attack and deadly aim); and take combat reflexes and improved snap shot! snap shot will just be a feat tax since you'll already threaten 5', but with improved snap shot you'll threaten out to 15' which should score you lots of AoOs- each of which will get you 2 attacks (from the archetype), and could even trigger rend if you haven't already used it...
1d4+12 or 15 (or whatever) might not seem like much at around 13th level, when the guy with the greatsword is doing 2d6+20 or 30, but when he gets 3 attacks (4 with haste, 5 if someone provokes) and you get 6+rend (7 with haste), and potentially 8 to 12 more from AoOs if anyone wants to move/cast/stand up within 15' of you (since each AoOs gets you 2 attacks)- suddenly that lower damage per swing thing may not be as big a deal. even before you double up on the AoOs (@13th), you'll still be getting enough extra attacks that it should make up for the per swing difference. the only problem with the build is the sheer volume of daggers you'll need for all your AoOs (and, obviously, you'll need Quick Draw). you'll also get more full attacks than most melee fighters (since you can throw your daggers instead of moving) and things won't easily be able to run from you (with your increased threat area).
Interesting idea; I was initially more interested in going with Weapon Master rather than Two-Weapon Warrior (which will be stronger at lower levels, I think), but this has some intriguing possibilities in the mid to late game.
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Design Manager
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while giving up weapon training (and, as such, duelist's gloves) hurts, i think two-weapon fighter might be a good way to go. the strength of daggers is how much mileage you get from one set of feats and abilities- focus/specialization/imp. crit all work on both of your twf weapons, and on your ranged attacks... *** and take combat reflexes and improved snap shot! snap shot will just be a feat tax since you'll already threaten 5', but with improved snap shot you'll threaten out to 15' which should score you lots of AoOs- each of which will get you 2 attacks (from the archetype), and could even trigger rend if you haven't already used it...
*** and potentially 8 to 12 more from AoOs if anyone wants to move/cast/stand up within 15' of you (since each AoOs gets you 2 attacks)- suddenly that lower damage per swing thing may not be as big a deal. even before you double up on the AoOs (@13th), you'll still be getting enough extra attacks that it should make up for the per swing difference.***
Not to rain on the parade here, but are we sure that daggers work with Snap Shot? I seem to recall some dispute on this matter. Ranged Weapons are a specific group that doesn't necessarily include Thrown Weapons. I'd considered a similar build but set it aside after a thread discussing whether Thrown weapons worked with abilities that specifically called out Ranged weapons came up. I know it seems a little silly but I recall people on both sides of the argument making some pretty valid points...
Not to rain on the parade here, but are we sure that daggers work with Snap Shot? I seem to recall some dispute on this matter. Ranged Weapons are a specific group that doesn't necessarily include Thrown Weapons. I'd considered a similar build but set it aside after a thread discussing whether Thrown weapons worked with abilities that specifically called out Ranged weapons came up. I know it seems a little silly but I recall people on both sides of the argument making some pretty valid points...while giving up weapon training (and, as such, duelist's gloves) hurts, i think two-weapon fighter might be a good way to go. the strength of daggers is how much mileage you get from one set of feats and abilities- focus/specialization/imp. crit all work on both of your twf weapons, and on your ranged attacks... *** and take combat reflexes and improved snap shot! snap shot will just be a feat tax since you'll already threaten 5', but with improved snap shot you'll threaten out to 15' which should score you lots of AoOs- each of which will get you 2 attacks (from the archetype), and could even trigger rend if you haven't already used it...
*** and potentially 8 to 12 more from AoOs if anyone wants to move/cast/stand up within 15' of you (since each AoOs gets you 2 attacks)- suddenly that lower damage per swing thing may not be as big a deal. even before you double up on the AoOs (@13th), you'll still be getting enough extra attacks that it should make up for the per swing difference.***
I believe you may be thinking of this:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html
"Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."
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Design Manager
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I believe you may be thinking of this:http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html
"Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."
And daggers are effective in melee (unlike, say, a shuriken which appears under the ranged weapon table), so did anyone ever weigh in on whether daggers worked with abilities specifying ranged weapons?
If I'm derailing thread here, let me know and I'll drop the subject or take it elsewhere :)