I have tried and failed to rustle up some extra players for running Rise of the Rune Lords anniversary edition. So I will be running it for only two players.
I want to run the AP as published, so I am looking for ways to boost my two players so they are up for the challenge.
Some of my suggestions could seem a little overpowered but please think about if they are more or less powerful than having a group of four characters. For example Gestalt is not good enough to make up the difference. What about Gestalt + max hp every level + a stupid high point buy? Maybe that's getting close.
I think they want to play an Alchemist and a Ranger, based on this, and the fact that I do not want to have to modify the AP at all, can you help me choose a set of house rules that will give my players a good chance of success but still provide them with a challenge. Below are some of the things I am considering, feel free to add your own.
Max HP at every level
An 18 17 16 15 14 13 or similar stat array
Double or Unlimited use of special abilities such as bombs/spells
Ability to use any wand found without UMD
Wands function like staffs with regards to caster level/save DC
Ranger gets a druid powered animal companion from level 1, Alchemist gets a familiar?
Allow Leadership feat (I would not want this to be the only option but I can see the benefit)
Hero points
Extra feats
Higher level, both starting and throughout AP
Higher WBL
Anything else?
What do you guys think would be a decent way to handle this. We are dead against multiple characters each or DM PC. We also do not want to use Mythic rules. My players are both quite inexperienced at pathfinder but have role-played before.
Thanks for any advice.
Ranger and alchemist is going to be tough. My recomendations for a 2 man party are always druid and summoner for the powerful pets. Action economy is really important, as no matter how much you boost them, if there are only 2 members of the party they are of greater risk of going down to a lucky crit or some such thing.
Honestly, if they are set on alchemist and wizard I'd start them at level 2, give the ranger a druid style companion from level 1, and give the alchemist something to match (not sure what would be appropriate if I'm honest depends on what kind of alchemist hes going to be). Then just run things as normal, they would always be higher level then the AP expects since they start at level 2 and get 4 characters worth of xp to 2 characters. Same thing for wealth.
Maybe give the alchemist trapfinding(no rogue), and the infusion discovery (so he can give out his extracts to the party), and one discovery of his choice for free.
I would recommend against going too nuts with stat arrays or the like, as you still want them to be TOO much more powerful at low levels then the foes they have to deal with.
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If your guys are dead against 2 characters each I would go with Gestalt rules and have them a lever or two higher than they should be.
They will suffer from actions per round opposed to a 4 person party but they should have the skills and hp’s to deal with it.
Just ask them to not combine two full casters in the one character and request they cover the 4 core roles. Skill, shield, healer and blaster and you should be good.
You could also look at the Prestige classes and start them off on these at 1st level. So Eldrich knight 1st or Arcane Archer 1st for example if this fits into what they wish to do.
Either of these would allow them to use a wider range of abilities and magic items but will cut down on the action efficiency.
There are always options and I am sure others will point out other very valid options I missed.
Sic
Kolo, I will see if the Ranger player would like to play a summoner instead. I kinda see what you are saying about the stat array, but i figured even a 15point buy lets players max a primary stat. all a higher point buy does is reduce MAD problems and provide better saves/hp/etc.
Ille, I will check out Roll20.net, but this game will be face to face so that is one for the future.
Sic, I will ask them if they like the idea of Gestalt, my only worry is that maybe it gets a little complicated for newish players.
One of the reasons i thought of adding pets/companions/familiars was to increase actions without really requiring the same level of extra management or options as having to run multiple characters each.
I would love to hear from anybody that has run Rise of the Rune Lords for 2 or 3 players, how did it go? any lessons learned?
Anyway thanks for the imput.
I wouldn't modify the AP other than to 1/2 the encounters, so if it calls for 4 of X, make it 2 of X. If it says the BBEG has 50 HPS, give him 25HPS and tone down his attack a little bit. You still keep the flavor and all of the encounters, you just make it set for the two of them. That isn't really very hard to do and doesn't take any work on your part except knowing how to divide by 2.
Otherwise my suggestions are to pick one of the following:
1) Go with Gestalt + max HPS and a super epic stat array
2) See if they both want to run 2 PC's
3) Give each a follower or cohort for free
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Indeed, running a Gestalt character is more complicated, but if you choose the right combination you find the skills flow together rather nicely. Ranger Druid while sharing a lot of the skills and abilities makes for a more combat focused druid. Rogue Wizard or Ninja Sorcerer also have some nice abilities which can help. Sorcerers are especially nice if you combine it with the shadow bloodline. Paladin Cleric is very interesting and makes one hell of a battle cleric.
I am running RotRL AP with 6 players and they have come very close to death a couple of times. This is without any changes in the tactics or numbers the AP suggests. They are however new players and don’t have a firm grasp of the game yet.
As for the complication, Adding in animal companions and other rules causes its own confusion. I would suggest it to my players and see what they come up with; see which option they would be happier with and go with that one. I would also suggest using the Hero point rules so sudden death can be avoided every now and then.
I ran Gestalt for the Carrion Crown AP with 3 players and it worked out fine; they had fun and we had a few deaths.
The bottom line is it does not matter how you do it as long as everyone is having fun.
Sic.
ub3r, I almost like that plan, my worry is that early on half the threat just wont seem like much of a threat, and later on, a half hp wizard is kinda just as dangerous as a full hp wizard.
I might go with a mix of your option 1 and 3 though, make them crazy powerful but only 2 of them early on, then as they meet NPCs along the way, maybe get 1 or 2 of the ones they like to tag along as required.
I'd just drop the wizard by a level or two then he wouldn't have the higher powered spells, but if they are gestalt they should have some really crazy hit points and saves so it may not even matter against the wizard. The group just needs to make sure to synergize well with the classes that they picked so they have minimal overlap between them and can cover most of the roles.
Another idea is to give them 2 initiatives per round perhaps. I did this before on the other end when running an epic leveled campaign. I gave the BBEG 2 attacks per round (2 different initiatives) to combat against the uber-powerful PC's who were destroying everything I threw against them with ease. If you went with this idea, it'd be like them playing 4 characters. If I did this and didn't change the encounters at all, I'd make sure to give them MAX hit points per level and a really nice stat array. I'd also make sure to toss in extra scrolls/wands/potions in their loot to help them heal up.
Sic, Good advice, I think i am starting to come up with a plan;
1, Decent stat array as it will help them at low level and matter less as the game goes on.
2, Gestalt but maybe just a caster + fighter each, gives a feat every level (thanks to fighter) high BAB and damage (thanks again fighter) but they still get the flavour they want from maybe an alchemist and a druid. Also not any harder to play.
3, Have some NPCs tag along to help with extra actions in combat, and easy to have them come and go or change to suit what they need.
4, Hero points to avoid unlucky TPK.
Hopefully this will keep it fun and challenging all the way through.
Thanks for the advice everybody.
ub3r, 2 initiatives per round would work ok from a balance point of view but i would worry about them doing silly things like moving in and attacking then moving away and hiding. So the BBEG would be chasing shadows.
I think i will lace the AP with extra consumables though, i might even make drinking a potion to be a swift action so that they can stretch a single initiative turn further.
Thanks for the advice, food for thought.
Depends on what kind of players they are whether they are aggressive or defensive, that is something that you need to figure out when playing with them and may have to adjust to.
Good idea about giving them drinking of potions as swift actions, that should help keep them alive.
No problem, I actually like running games for a solo adventurer or small groups, but I do them with home-brew campaigns rather than AP's so you wanting to keep as close to the AP as possible makes me try to think outside the box for trying to balance things.
a Gestalt Ranger/Druid and a alchemist/Summoner
Start them off at level 2 (so they would be a Level 2 Ranger/2 druid
and a 2 alchemist/2 Summoner but they are both level 2 (not level 4)
the alchemist could have some kind of clockwork/alchemical golem as an eidolon... would be cool.
Regarding the gestalt stuff- I'd try to find a way for them to fill the roles they need without changing their character ideas very much.
For example, you can gestalt the ranger with a druid. That's healing/casting and striker (archer ranger) or front line (two weapon fighting ranger). Plus, as the levels increase, the druid's shapeshift means he'd be a front line combatant that way, too. AND druids get animal companions. (Downside is- that's a lot to keep track of for a semi-new player).
The alchemist has arcane covered, which would go well with the ranger/druid's divine magic. All he'd need is a front line option. Well, isn't there an alchemist PrC that revolves around the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde aspect of the alchemist? If you can fudge a few things and gestalt the alchemist and its PrC together...
This solution also has the rather amusing image of two human looking player characters shifting into inhuman beasts at the beginning of a battle.
Master Chymist is the PrC.
I didn't think about it, but yes gestalting hat might be an option, it isnt OP.
The alchemist gets Disable device, maybe give him a bone and let him have trapfinding as well.
All good ideas, sorry psion, will not be over the net this time.
I really like the clockwork golem eidolon idea, will ask my alchemist player if she likes the sound of that too.
Consider improving the npc interactions and have 1 or 2 travel with the group on an extended basis. Ameiko(heals and buffs) or Shalelu(an extra fighty never hurts) are easy ones, and they don't break the adventure's flow.
I am running Carrion Crown with mostly two gestalt PCs (third one joined recently), where the only changes from the gestalt rules were that they could roll both hitdice and take the highest, and they received the base skillpoints from both classes. Stats rolled, but adjusted up or down to be between 75 and 80 points in total (not point buy points).
Few to no problems, but my players are also very cautious and making use of terrain and NPCs to their benefit, giving them an extra edge.
You could increase from 15 to 25 pointbuy system, as the adventures are ment to be in the standard 15's.
I've also heard of a book of NPCs. Maybe you can find a good NPC to fill a specific spot which is missing.
Also, an Alchemist can be very brutal if played properly. It can fill the Rogue role or the Barbarian role. I can't make opinions on the Ranger, though (maybe going Archer).
However, as you stated before, your 2 players are inexperienced. THAT is a problem, as they probably won't be used to optimization, action economy etc.
A good starting point could be: "Well, you guys want to play which kind of characters (Melee, Ranged, Stealthy)? I can help you with your PCs, making them more optmized."
Just my 2 cents.
I gave them a 25 point buy, hero points, and didn't change the encounters at all, letting them split the XP and gold meant for four players three ways. Their tactics left a bit to be desired, and the bard forgot about his spells half the time, but they were just fine. The bard did get Held and took a coup de grace, but had the hero points to survive. I'm not sure how well they'll continue to do once we pick the game up again in 8 months, but we'll see.
They did have a much easier time in the Misgivings than they should have since we didn't realize that Magic Circle Against Evil doesn't move with you.
Three players is a lot easier than two, though. I'd recommend having Ameiko and Shalelu join your team. Have each of the players play one, if they don't mind running two characters. Use hero points, they're a big buffer.