Can you Spellstrike on a coup de grace?


Rules Questions


I was just playing my magus in our home game tonight, and ran into this question.

Specifically, there was a baddy asleep in front of me. I cast shocking grasp one round, and held the charge. The next round, I assumed I could coup de grace him with my scimitar and simultaneously deliver (and do critical damage with) the spell. My GM was confused, and it sparked a bit of a debate around the table. Here are the things we were unable to entirely settle:

First, "You can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace" doesn't technically say this is an attack with the weapon. Spellstrike, on the other hand, does say "He can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack". I should clarify by saying none of us could think of why the hell you couldn't deliver the spell as part of the attack you're obviously making to coup de grace someone, but the rules are a bit unclear.

Second, presuming you were capable of hitting a coup de grace target with both spell and weapon as above, does the spell do critical damage as well? I think it does, since if you're attacking with any part of this, it should all be a critical hit, but I'm not sure, and neither was anyone else at the table.

Third, once again presuming Spellstriking a coup de grace target works, does the spell's damage also count towards the DC of the coup de grace Fortitude save vs. immediate death? Or is it just the weapon's damage? This one, none of us had a clue, and decent arguments were made either way.

Has any of this already been answered?

Grand Lodge

A Coup de Grace is a melee attack.


So we figured - but it's not, technically, listed as one. It's a separate action. I mean, obviously, under any kind of causality, it is, but we were wondering if any special whatsits you can apply to that attack (like, say, a spellstrike) can count as well.


Viscount K wrote:
Second, presuming you were capable of hitting a coup de grace target with both spell and weapon as above, does the spell do critical damage as well? I think it does, since if you're attacking with any part of this, it should all be a critical hit, but I'm not sure, and neither was anyone else at the table.

As Spellstrike specifically allows you to crit on the spell damage (though you can admittedly do that anyway) through your weapon, I'd say it would be multiplied.

Viscount K wrote:
Third, once again presuming Spellstriking a coup de grace target works, does the spell's damage also count towards the DC of the coup de grace Fortitude save vs. immediate death? Or is it just the weapon's damage? This one, none of us had a clue, and decent arguments were made either way.

This... I'm not really sure about. I could see it as:

a) It's part of the same hit as the coup de grace, so yes, it adds to the damage.
b) It's going along with the coup de grace but is just an added effect, so no, it doesn't add to the damage.

Tough call on that one.


I don't see why it wouldn't work. It's a melee attack with a spell rider on it.

I don't see why you'd WANT to, since if you have any sort of static damage bonus at all people are gonna need a Nat 20 to pass the Fort save so it's kind of a wasted spell IMO, but I don't see any reason at all why you couldn't do it.


Darkwolf117 wrote:

This... I'm not really sure about. I could see it as:

a) It's part of the same hit as the coup de grace, so yes, it adds to the damage.
b) It's going along with the coup de grace but is just an added effect, so no, it doesn't add to the damage.

Tough call on that one.

I know, right? Exactly the conclusions we drew.

Rynjin wrote:

I don't see why it wouldn't work. It's a melee attack with a spell rider on it.

I don't see why you'd WANT to, since if you have any sort of static damage bonus at all people are gonna need a Nat 20 to pass the Fort save so it's kind of a wasted spell IMO, but I don't see any reason at all why you couldn't do it.

We couldn't see any reason, either - from a worldbuilding standpoint. But pretty often, our ideas about how physics work differ from how the rules are supposed to function, especially when magic is involved. Thus, why we wonder.

As for the Fort save, sure, you've got a point there. The monster in question had a friggin' ridiculous Fort, so it seemed fairly necessary at the time (and as it turned out, the extra damage would have been necessary for the save to secure the kill), but most days, I totally agree with you.


Rynjin wrote:
I don't see why you'd WANT to

Maybe because it's a cool effect?


That it is.


RAW it could be argued that Spellstrike doesn't trigger on a Coup due Grace. The description of the ability states specifically 'a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) ...' The Coup doesn't actually make an attack roll.

Not saying that it is particularly powerful to allow it to work, just that the wording seems to require the ability to make an attack roll. Assuming that you do allow it to work when no attack roll at highest BAB is made, the spell damage should crit as well, a CdG is listed as an automatic 'critical hit' which is what the ability is looking for.


Skylancer4 wrote:

RAW it could be argued that Spellstrike doesn't trigger on a Coup due Grace. The description of the ability states specifically 'a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) ...' The Coup doesn't actually make an attack roll.

Not saying that it is particularly powerful to allow it to work, just that the wording seems to require the ability to make an attack roll. Assuming that you do allow it to work when no attack roll at highest BAB is made, the spell damage should crit as well, a CdG is listed as an automatic 'critical hit' which is what the ability is looking for.

Except that the spellstrike is merely adds a new way to deliver a touch spell. It doesn't make an attack roll because CdG is presumed to auto-hit regardless. If you were in some other situation where you can auto-hit without it being a CdG, you could still use Spellstrike. Furthermore, the spell discharges on your next successful attack be that a touch attack or a melee attack. Even without Spellstrike, you could deliver a CdG with an Improved Unarmed Strike and it would still count as delivering the spell along with the CdG.


A better question is, could you CdG with an held Touch Spell?

I'd say yes since its considered an "armed unarmed" melee attack. In which case, since spell strike has been stated to otherwise work like normal touch attacks, then yes you could do it imo.

Silver Crusade

Complete agreement with Kazaan. Further...

Spellstrike (Su):
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

Coup de Grace:
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

As Spellstrike is NOT merely delivering a touch attack spell via a weapon, the melee damage and the spell effects are made into one. Normally you cannot CdG with a spell. Spellstrike, however, makes the spell's effects part of the weapon attack, even makes it critical at x2 in addition to normal weapon damage. At first, I was going to say the spell is separate from the weapon attack, but it is not. They are together- the total damage dealt from the single hit (including properties like flaming) determines the fortitude DC.


Sounds about right to me, Nightskies/Kazaan. In particular, I think we'd overlooked "deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell" as part of the language we should be looking at. Since we're pretty sure at this point we can get away with Spellstriking at all during a CdG, that wording seems to indicate that it's all the same attack, and therefore all the same Fort save.

Besides which, from a game physics point of view (as we more or less thought at the beginning), it's all hitting the same spot at the same time, so the trauma ought to add up the same.

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