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Had a situation come up tonight that I'd like some advice on. I prefer to follow the rules as much as possible as a GM, but we hit a situation where they seemed a bit broken.
To avoid spoilers, I'll keep this very generic. My players are 3rd level, in an adventure path. They have encountered a minor artifact that takes the form of a well set into the floor. The summoner in the group has taken a trait that allows him to cast three spells on his list at a +1 caster level. One of the spells he chose was Summon Monster II.
Now, the first part of this is, am I correct in disallowing him to use it with his Summon Monster spell-like ability? Getting an extra round from a summon spell is one thing, but since the SLA lasts minutes instead of rounds an extra 10 rounds is a bit much. But the SLA in the summoner's case works more like spells than most SLAs so I'm not sure I'm right.
The second issue is that he used said SLA to summon a small Earth Elemental, and burrow around and under the well. He also want to have it Earth Glide up the walls and into the ceiling, to drop a chunk of stone on top of the well. This wouldn't destroy the artifact, but it would bury it, effectively doing the same thing for game purposes.
Now, since the elemental is around 2 minutes (possibly 3 - one minute was used to get the Earth Elemental to understand directions via alchemist extract), and has a burrow speed of 20 feet, that means it can move 800 square feet of earth (1200 in 3 minutes). Now considering that Move Earth can't be used for tunneling, can move 1500 square feet of earth at most, takes 10 minutes, and is a 6th level spell, this seems a bit much. One more level and the summoner would be able to outdo Move Earth with this trick.
I don't want to deny something that is allowed in the rules... but I also don't want my players to be able to shut down an artifact with a 2nd level SLA and no research.
SLA are NOT spells. firstly... and can the elemental drop earth... not from earth glide, since iirc earth glide doesn't move any earth
Earth glide doesn't, but they also have a burrow speed.
Burrow
A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.
Earth Glide (Ex)
A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
Hmm... I'd say naturally not, but... if he could convince the elemental to...
Yeah, convincing it isn't the problem - the fact that it is a summoned creature means that it'll do whatever the caster says.
Where did you get that text on burrow? I was using the PRD, and didn't see it in the Universal Monster Rules or in the Glossary.
search prd for burrow. and not all summons grant control.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement
slow connection here
Ah, that makes sense - I use the Paizo website PRD, because I find the d20pfsrd site has too much 3rd party material. Looks like they pulled the burrow rules from 3.5...
Which, come to think, actually might just make the difference here. If there are no rules for burrowing in PF, then you have to take each instance on a case by case basis. That is, to know what burrow does for a monster, it has to describe that in the monster entry. In this case, that ability is Earth Glide. Earth Glide isn't an optional form of burrowing, it is the only form the Earth Elemental has! And in that case, you can't use an Earth Elemental to move dirt or stone because it specifically says it doesn't even disturb the earth. It can't burrow in a way different from Earth Glide. At least, that would be my understanding in this case.
As for summoning, it's true that not every summon spell gives the caster control, but the summon monster spells specifically include the text, "If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."
Ah, that makes sense - I use the Paizo website PRD, because I find the d20pfsrd site has too much 3rd party material. Looks like they pulled the burrow rules from 3.5...
Which, come to think, actually might just make the difference here. If there are no rules for burrowing in PF, then you have to take each instance on a case by case basis. That is, to know what burrow does for a monster, it has to describe that in the monster entry. In this case, that ability is Earth Glide. Earth Glide isn't an optional form of burrowing, it is the only form the Earth Elemental has! And in that case, you can't use an Earth Elemental to move dirt or stone because it specifically says it doesn't even disturb the earth. It can't burrow in a way different from Earth Glide. At least, that would be my understanding in this case.
As for summoning, it's true that not every summon spell gives the caster control, but the summon monster spells specifically include the text, "If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."
See Burrow and walls
A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
Earth Glide is an Extrordanary Ability, it specifically says it "can pass" it does not have to Earth Glide if it can burrow normally
Speed 20 ft., burrow 20 ft., earth glide
In fact Earth glide is listed as a separate form of movement
Normal burrowing does not allow for movement through stone, but Earth elementals can glide through it. Burrowing as a Spell or Spell like Ability does not leave a hole (see Burrow spell).
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SLA are NOT spells. firstly...
There is strong prescident for the Summoner's Summon Monster ability to be modifed by feats.
Specifically, the summoner can already benefit from the Augmented Summoning and Superior Summoning feats. I see no reason not to allow the additional minute of duration. It has minimal long term inpact on the Summoner's power.
See Burrow and walls
** spoiler omitted **
Earth Glide is an Extrordanary Ability, it specifically says it "can pass" it does not have to Earth Glide if it can burrow normally
Speed 20 ft., burrow 20 ft., earth glideIn fact Earth glide is listed as a separate form of...
Ironically, the very thread you linked to has opinions on both sides of that - gustavo iglesias is voicing my interpretation there. And the fact that there are no rules for burrow, and that every creature with burrow has abilities or descriptive text describing what that means, would seem to indicate to me that Earth Glide is what allows an Earth Elemental to burrow. Saying it "can pass" is to indicate the ability, not the option. "Can pass" - it has the capacity. "May pass" - it has the option.
Is burrow listed separately from Earth Glide? Yes.
So are they different abilities? Yes.
Can a small earth elemental burrow through stone? No, it does not specify that it can.
Can a small earth elemental Earth Glide through stone? Yes.
Is burrow listed separately from Earth Glide? Yes.
So are they different abilities? Yes.
Can a small earth elemental burrow through stone? No, it does not specify that it can.
Can a small earth elemental Earth Glide through stone? Yes.
Ordinarily I would agree, except in this case there are no rules in the game for one of the abilities. It can only be understood by either a) pulling interpretation from 3.5 that was left out of PF, or b) seeing it as the effect of existing listed abilities. Given that the Earth Elemental in 3.5 didn't have a burrow speed, only Earth Glide, and that afaik every creature in PF that has burrow (or gains it through the spell) actually has description on how movement through earth works, I'm inclined to go with B.
Also telling: Earth Glide doesn't have a listed speed, but is (according to the Universal Monster Rules) a supplement to an existing burrow speed. That is, a creature cannot have Earth Glide without a burrow speed - Earth Glide is a description of how burrow works for that creature.
Is burrow listed separately from Earth Glide? Yes.
So are they different abilities? Yes.
Can a small earth elemental burrow through stone? No, it does not specify that it can.
Can a small earth elemental Earth Glide through stone? Yes.Ordinarily I would agree, except in this case there are no rules in the game for one of the abilities. It can only be understood by either a) pulling interpretation from 3.5 that was left out of PF, or b) seeing it as the effect of existing listed abilities. Given that the Earth Elemental in 3.5 didn't have a burrow speed, only Earth Glide, and that afaik every creature in PF that has burrow (or gains it through the spell) actually has description on how movement through earth works, I'm inclined to go with B.
Also telling: Earth Glide doesn't have a listed speed, but is (according to the Universal Monster Rules) a supplement to an existing burrow speed. That is, a creature cannot have Earth Glide without a burrow speed - Earth Glide is a description of how burrow works for that creature.
Since Earth Glide does say "burrow" so I would have to say that Burrow and Earth Glide share a speed. The total movement range during Earth Glide is limited by burrow, but allows an Earth Elemental to Burrow, then while burrowing, Earth Glide through obstructions then continue burrowing if it wished. Making Earth Glide a modification to its Burrow.
Also looking at the other elementals from 3.5 we find more differences, Water elementals without a swim speed, Air Mastery gives a -1 to attack targets on the ground instead of +1 to attack targets in the air. While comparable, they should not be compared because they are different systems, unless you were to convert all the monsters from 3.5 to pathfinder in a game.
Here we go: You were 100% correct.