Diminish? Getting AC up to 60 is frighteningly easy. Almost nothing published can hit that.I am curious, Can you do it and at the same time hit the AC of a CR equivalent monster with a 2? and you know do a good amount of damage per hit? If not then maybe the price for a high AC is too much.
I'm not sure. I've never bothered to break it down level by level. I imagine one could keep it quite competitive though.
That depends on the circumstances as well as level. At high levels, if the fighter lands the first blow, you may well be done. If you start outside of charge range and can still make ranged touch attacks, then the fight will probably go to the gunslinger.
At lower levels, I'll probably put my money on the gunslinger unless the tank he's fighting is also a fighter archer. In that case, I'd say they are about equally likely to kill one another.
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I am currently running book 6 of Kingmaker with some Mythic spice added in. One of my PCs is the most unkillable... thing... I have ever seen. To all those who say monks suck...
This PC has a current AC of 50 - 54 if he spends a ki point. Both his touch and flat footed are over 40. His lowest save, Reflex, is a +17 - and he has improved evasion. Being a master of Crane Style, he can deflect one melee attack each round. Being a mythic guardian, he can deflect ANOTHER melee attack each round. He also has both the feat Snatch Arrows and the mythic ability Snatch Spell. His CMD is well over 40 - and that's probably his one weakness, honestly.
He also has SR 25 and DR 5/epic. As far as contributing usefully in combat? His unarmed attack routine isn't the greatest, but he reliably hits with a few of his 7-8 attacks (and he's a qingjong monk with Blood Crow Strike, so he can fight at range). Much more intimidating however is that he's built to be a grapple monster - he has almost a 40 CMB when grappling, and thanks to monkish speed, mythic points and Rapid Grappler is capable of pinning and hogtying an enemy from 100 feet away in a single turn.
Needless to say, building encounters with this in mind has become challenging. :p My mindset has become, even if I can't do anything about him, he can't protect the whole party at once. Since he loves playing up the defender role, this actually ends up being a lot of fun for him as he tries. :)
Why not?
There are plenty of other "defenses" to target - CMD, fort/reflex/will... Along with rare effects like magic missile that just plain work. And there's always just using a lot of mooks with bows hoping for a 20.
But the real solution is to have enemies ignore him and go after the squishy targets. Especially the rounds he's going full defense, he can't even AoO that round! Just walk around him and go after the others. Many monsters have reasonably high mental stats, high enough to realize punching a literal iron tank is a waste of effort.
Why hope for a 20 when they can use aid another to practically guarantee a hit?
Because aid another requires a melee attack, and you can only sanwich so many (8 medium or small creatures, more if some have reach weapons) creatures around a medium PC. But with ranged, you can unleash a hail of arrows that blot out the sun.
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What are the hopes and dreams of the enemy for the fight? I'm assuming reasonably intelligent enemies - competent enough to realize the fighter won't go down by conventional violence. (Enemies incapable of this realization won't be very challenging encounters, but they might be enjoyable nonetheless; just make sure not to drag them out. Not every fight has to be challenging, but every fight should be entertaining.)
* You can try to keep the fighter busy while you handle the other party members first. Task a couple of (sacrificial) minions to keep the fighter busy while you take out the cleric and the other stand-in-the-back characters. Once the fighter is the lone survivor, overwhelm him.
* Take hostages. Grapple/paralyze/surround the wizard and threaten to coup de grace unless the party meets the enemy's demands.
* Overwhelm the fighter. Consider the usefulness of Aid Another actions: a LOT of minions with longspears can chip in for a +2 bonus each to the BBEG's attacks. They can also provide flanking. A couple of them working together might Trip the fighter, since uber-armor doesn't really help your CMD all that much.
* Hit and run. Show up with just enough minions that the party starts buffing the fighter, then disappear back into the jungle. Repeat every half hour. Eventually either the party doesn't use all the buffs anymore every combat (meaning his AC won't max out), or they run out (even lower AC).
* All-out attacks on the other PCs: let them wish they'd kept those buffs for themselves.
* Attack from many directions: the fighter can't block all the enemies from reaching the other PCs.
* If an enemy is in a fight and suddenly realizes he can't reasonably hurt the fighter, withdraw. Sacrifice minions to cover your retreat, but under no circumstances remain trapped in a fight you can't win. Go back to your lair and think about how to stop the party when they get closer.
* Attacks that bypass armor. Swarms, AoE spells, touch attacks...
* Disrupt the party dynamic. Dominate the fighter and make the party wish the fighter was stoppable. Dominate the buffer to Dismiss all the buffs on the fighter, then cast debuffs on the fighter.
Attacking the CMD of a high AC opponent normally works, his CMD most probably won't be near as high as the easily buffed AC.
Threads like this make the "common wisdom" of the Paizo boards that player AC stops being relevant after a while pretty laughable, btw.
I'm going to echo "add extra minions." Single enemy encounters are problematic for a number of reasons, difficulty hitting the martial types are just one of them. Flanking helps, as does dividing your party's attention. Spellcasters spend all their buffs on the fighter fighting the big bad, and then something comes sneaking up on THEM? Then they all have to figure out some new tactics, fast.
Also, don't be afraid to buff your bad guys. If they have treasure, use it. If their treasure allotment allows them to have a potion of heroism then they drink it--that doesn't all have to be "saved" for the party (although of course they should have some nice goods for the party too loot if and when they are defeated). As another poster noted, smart enemy that finds it's unable to hit the fighter is going to take a different tack--it's going to attack something else, use a different kind of attack (a magical attack, a touch attack, etc.), or do something to make itself better at dealing with the fighter (buffing, etc.)
A word of caution, if I may: The worst GM I've ever had had a tendency to obsess about my characters' primary defenses. For example, in Champions I built an earth elemental who could withstand a nuclear attack, but he was slow and even the lowliest of mentalists could turn his brain into jelly. Instead of following the many excellent tactics listed above, he focused on building BBEGs who could:
(a) Get through the earth elemental's massive armor and damage him, and
(b) Withstand the earth elemental's hugely-damaging attacks.
No one in the group enjoyed the fights with such BBEGs because the GM ALSO gave the BBEG powers to neutralize all the other characters. So it was a litany of fights with guys who could one-shot anyone other than the earth elemental, and who took dozens of rounds to take down.
So you've seen it listed above, but my favorite tactics are:
- Many minions. I have a THF who deals massive damage. We were attacked by a dozen werewolves. In the first round he chopped three in half. The other 9 used their massive movement to go around him and attack the other party members. The battle mat had a hilarious 'circle of emptiness' around the fighter. Intelligent creatures will say, "Oooh! Let's not play with that guy!"
- Area effect spells. At the level you're talking about, he should be starting to worry about his Reflex save.
- Mind-affecting spells. My fighter has to stand next to the bard every single fight so she can cast Remove Fear, because he's apparently terrified of the universe.
- An occasional swarm. But they get old, FAST.
- Occasional touch attack undead. Again, they get old and painful fast if you don't have a cleric with Restoration handy, but they're great at putting the fear back into the unhittable tanks.
So stop worrying so much about his AC; as many have said, he's invested a lot in it. Even my THF in chainmail has his 'defensive set' where he switches to a tower shield and fighting defensively to get up to a 27 pre-buff, and low-30's once the rest of the party buffs him. Worry more about how the creatures that are attacking him will react once they realize they can't crack open his hard metal shell. Many will run. Many will just go around him. And with that much armor on, he's not going to be much of a runner...
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Here is a fighter build with progression from 5 - 20.
AC is never "unhittable" but she maintains versatility as she progresses.
Level 5
Level 10
Level 15
Level 20
Something to note: AC progression accelerates as level increases. She does not become easier to hit as she levels. She become harder to hit.
For the people saying "target CMD": her CMD is generally within a few points of her AC, and actually surpasses her AC at level 20.
Will saves are a weak point, but she cannot be dominated 15+
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Diminish? Getting AC up to 60 is frighteningly easy. Almost nothing published can hit that.I am curious, Can you do it and at the same time hit the AC of a CR equivalent monster with a 2? and you know do a good amount of damage per hit? If not then maybe the price for a high AC is too much.
I could, yes. But this is the line of thought that produces one-trick ponies. The same type of builds that lead people to scream "fighters are broken" after an encounter leaves them unable to use that one trick they are depending one.
I know that others have mentioned the Aid Another action,
However, I would couple that in this way.
First you have your minions, Every BBEG has them. So our BBEG in particular has employed the services of an army of goblins. We have 2 parties of 10 Goblins each. 1 goblin in each party is equipped with sleep arrows. 9 of the other goblins use the Aid Another action, the goblin with the sleep arrows attacks at a plus 18 if the other goblins are successful. It's not guaranteed, however it will make the fighter pause a moment, the first chance he has to make a will save. Especially if both teams of Goblins hit. You must include a couple of higher level Goblin Leaders to attack the rest of the party to keep them from taking out the goblins quickly.
Once the number of goblin's in each team is reduced to a point they can no longer hit the fighter, have them combine teams again to go at it.
If however the fighter does get put to sleep, and depending on how many goblins are left and the amount of hit points that the fighter have left, I wouldn't send all the goblins in to do a coup de gras. One shouldn't kill him, if you keep up roughly with the fighter's hit points. Send all the other goblins in to attack the rest of the party.
Once the fighter wakes back up from being nicked by the lone goblin, let the other goblins make a perception check at a penalty to be aware of the fighter's return to combat.
This should be an intense moment for the fighter and the rest of the party.
Having an encounter of 20 goblins with 16 sleep arrows, 2 level 2 goblin fighters, and maybe 1 level 4 goblin barbarian, could be lots of fun for a Level 8 group.
... We have 2 parties of 10 Goblins each. 1 goblin in each party is equipped with sleep arrows. 9 of the other goblins use the Aid Another action, the goblin with the sleep arrows attacks at a plus 18 if the other goblins are successful. ...
I don't think you can aid another on archery.
I do not see why the armor bonus is +15.
Level 15
9+5=14 Not 15. Unless it is adding something else I don't know of. Not a huge difference for your AC over all.
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9+5=14 Not 15. Unless it is adding something else I don't know of. Not a huge difference for your AC over all.I do not see why the armor bonus is +15.
Level 15
Defender of the Society trait adds +1.
... We have 2 parties of 10 Goblins each. 1 goblin in each party is equipped with sleep arrows. 9 of the other goblins use the Aid Another action, the goblin with the sleep arrows attacks at a plus 18 if the other goblins are successful. ...I don't think you can aid another on archery.
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.
You are correct!
So the goblins will take a -4 for using an improvised weapon (arrow or sleeping) and stabbing with it. Which also mean only 7 can assist at a time.
So the next questions is since the weapon is not fired, is the weapon broken and the sleep used up?
Or, can each of the goblins have a sleep arrow, and as the one making the attack goes down, another with an arrow of sleep make the attack?
I think that once it actually hits, it is then used up.
This +1 arrow is painted white and has white fletching. If it strikes a foe so that it would normally deal damage, it instead bursts into magical energy that deals nonlethal damage (the same amount as it would deal lethal damage) and forces the target to make a successful DC 11 Will save or fall asleep.[/qoute]I think it would be best to distribute 7 of the arrows to 7 of the 10 goblins of each 10 member team.
your thoughts?
At CR 15, most foes have multiple attacks at +20 and higher to hit some with touch attacks and usually with some good reach so this fighter should be hit with some regularity. Their grapple is usually better than +45 so they can challenge their also. No one is unstoppable.
Diminish? Getting AC up to 60 is frighteningly easy. Almost nothing published can hit that.
Well i dunno how to get a 60AC with the books I got.
Dear GM:
Can you please not use any spells that target our fighter's Will save until they reach level 15? kthanx!
Love,
Lamontius
I know you can get AC 60 against Melee or Ranged alone but not both at once.
EDIT:
@Artanthos: Well thanks for that... Now if only I could wrap my head around Hero Lab's Output sheets without heavy reading...
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The high AC fighter type was really cheesy back in 3.0 when the "Devoted Defender" prestige class was available. I remember playing a level 10 fighter with an AC routinely above 40 who would pick the barbarian with an AC of 14 as his defensive charge. The DM finally houseruled it that the Devoted Defender had to use up attacks of opportunity to take hits just so it wasn't completely frustrating for him.
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Dear GM:Can you please not use any spells that target our fighter's Will save until they reach level 15? kthanx!
Love,
Lamontius
Every character is vulnerable to something. This is why we work in groups. A build that has no need of others would be broken.
Before level 15 her solution to spellcasters is: knock them prone and hit them every time they stand up or attempt to cast.
It is not a perfect solution, but battlefield control via shield slam is a major part of the build. Step up is another part.
The high AC fighter type was really cheesy back in 3.0 when the "Devoted Defender" prestige class was available. I remember playing a level 10 fighter with an AC routinely above 40 who would pick the barbarian with an AC of 14 as his defensive charge. The DM finally houseruled it that the Devoted Defender had to use up attacks of opportunity to take hits just so it wasn't completely frustrating for him.
Nice...
@Arthantos: So like the claims of the Summoner being broken?
yeah every character is vunerable to something and that was the whole point of this thread
not how to build a high ac fighter
but instead how to make a high ac fighter worry
I actually had to tone DOWN Seregon's AC because I realized I didn't need it to be 63 or 64.
I've seen other people get up to 60 without improved natural armor. Even archer fighters can still use animated shields and other tools to have obscene AC.
A nicely made Spreadsheet works better.
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yeah every character is vunerable to something and that was the whole point of this thread
not how to build a high ac fighter
but instead how to make a high ac fighter worry
Half the game targets something other than AC. I posted very early in the thread on the original topic. When the thread turned towards people saying AC can't keep up and becomes useless later on .... that was people talking without looking at real numbers. AC can remain relevant into end game. It never makes you untouchable though.
Characters that build as one trick ponies will always crash and burn when that one trick is useless. You want to have an answer for as many situations as possible, even if that answer is less than optimal.
I never said it becomes useless. Just that its value does diminish as you go up in level.
Mainly do to the number of things that don't target AC that come in at later levels.
I actually had to tone DOWN Seregon's AC because I realized I didn't need it to be 63 or 64.
I've seen other people get up to 60 without improved natural armor. Even archer fighters can still use animated shields and other tools to have obscene AC.
He might last a few rounds at level 20. The problem is at level 20 you are going to have really BIG boss fights that can do really massive damage. And a +13 Will? For example:
AC 55, touch 35, flat-footed 49 (+6 Dex, +9 insight, +20
natural, +12 profane , –2 size)
hp 742 (45d10+495); fast healing 5
Fort +37; Ref +21; Will +35
Defensive Abilities death’s embrace; DR 25/cold iron and
good; Immune electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire
10; SR 46
Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee +5 unholy greatclub +62/+57/+52/+47 (2d8+26 plus
death) or 2 slams +57 (2d6+14), sting +52 (2d4+7 plus poison)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
@brvheart: What monster is that?
@brvheart: What monster is that?My mother-in-law. :-(
My God Daughter's Mother can fit those stats as well... Especially when she deals with her Baby Daddy.
Seregon was initially created to be able to stand toe to toe with the Tarrasque in melee and win, so no, he's not going to be optimized to every encounter. (And really, who is?)
Give up his ring of regeneration and replace it with a ring of freedom of movement, and my money will always be on Seregon in a fight against Big T.
@brvheart: What monster is that?
Orcus from level 15, Rappan Athuk and he has a lot of very nasty minions! I can't copy the entire monster due to copyright. The players will need to be higher than level 20 to take them on! 20th levels can warm themselves up on the upper levels of The Slumbering Tsar. The CRs aren't quite as bad at 20-24!
@The Human Diversion Yeah sometimes my mother-in-law resembles that remark also!
Seregon was initially created to be able to stand toe to toe with the Tarrasque in melee and win, so no, he's not going to be optimized to every encounter. (And really, who is?)
Give up his ring of regeneration and replace it with a ring of freedom of movement, and my money will always be on Seregon in a fight against Big T.
Every character has a weakness. I remember the party fighting a Tarrasque in 1E when you needed a full wish to stop the regeneration. It destroyed half a world before the party convinced Tensor to cast one. Defeating one in any version is an accomplishment.