Archer Cleric - can it be done?


Advice


There are several ways to make an awesome bard archer, and a whole prestige class for mixing the arcane classes with archery, but what about a divine archer?

What I am thinking about is a character that has at least a 4:5 ratio of cleric to other classes. For example, two levels of fighter, and eight levels of cleric is cool.

I'm open to just about anything Pathfinder, although I would prefer to keep it as close to Core+APG, as possible.

I can come up with a elven cleric that is decent with the bow at first, but really starts to drop off quickly. Without significant buffing, the lack of base attack starts to put a real dent in the concept. Divine favor is about the only meaningful buff, and even that is only good at 1-2 level, and maybe again at 6-7. There is also a slight boost from getting to make your bow holy at 8th level if you take the good domain. But really, that is all I found.

  • What is the best way to get bow proficiency as a cleric (deities weapon, elf, dip into martial class?)

  • Is it worth using a crossbow? (guessing- no.)

  • Is it worth being a small race for the dex boost and size bonus to attacks?

  • Is it better to dip fighter, ranger, paladin or barbarian, (or even bard or rogue)? Or just straight cleric?

  • What domains/deities are best?

Note: Looking to make a playable character from level 1 - 15. Doesn't have to set records, just be a fun character who can do better then 1d8+2. Inquisitor is close to what I'm looking for, but not really an archery cleric.


Dot

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fergie wrote:

There are several ways to make an awesome bard archer, and a whole prestige class for mixing the arcane classes with archery, but what about a divine archer?

The Paladin archetype (Divine Hunter) not divine enough for you?


I think a basic cleric could be a decent archer, take travel and animal domain. So you have speed and a "blocker", stay in the back, buff yourself (full attacks after it) etc.

I think "Divine Scion" is also a good way to go, as you can get some fighter feats :D


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I made a cleric for a jade regent game, it's probably not the best thing ever, but here she is at level 7.

Buffing with divine favor or something similar was imperative, attacks looked like this:

+12(1d8+4) If no buffs
+15(1d8+7) if divine favor
+13(1d8+5) If you used Prayer

Kanahel
Female Elf Cleric 7
CG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +6; Senses Low-light Vision; Perception +19
Languages: Common, Elven
DEFENSE
AC 21; Touch 13; Flat Footed 18; (+7 Armor; +1 Natural Armor; +3 Dex)
HP 37 (7HD)
Fort +6; Relfex +7; Will +9 (+11 vs. Enchantments)
Immune Magic Sleep
OFFENSE
Speed 20 feet (4 Squares) Without Armor 30 feet (6 Squares)
Melee Masterwork Morning Star +8(1d8+2) B and P or
Masterwork Morning Star +8(1d8+4) 2 handed
Ranged +1 Composite Longbow (2 Str) +11(1d8+3)/X3 P
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL7 or CL9 to overcome SR; Concentration +10)
4th Level – (1+1/day) Summon Nature’s Ally IV D, Blessing of Fervor
3rd Level – (3+1/day) Fly D, Prayer, Daybreak Arrow, (Open Slot)
2nd Level – (4+1/day) Feather Fall D, Aid, Weapon of Awe, (Open Slot), (Open Slot)
1st Level – (5+1/day) Protection from Evil D, Bless, Divine Favor (2), (Open Slot) (Open Slot)
0 Level – Create Water, Read Magic, Stabilize, Light
Domains Feather and Good
STATISTICS
Abilities Str 14 (+2), Dex 18 (+4), Con 10 (+0), Int 10 (+0), Wis 16 (+3), Cha 10 (+0)
BAB +5, CMB +7 (+8 with Morning Star) CMD 21
Feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Boon Companion, Weapon Focus Longbow
Traits Warrior of Old, Friend of the Family
Skills Diplomacy +4, Heal +8, Perception +15, Sense Motive +7, Knowledge: Religion +5, Knowledge: History +4, Knowledge: Nobility +4 Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Spellcraft to identify Magical items
SQ Aura of Good, Elven Immunities, Keen Senses, Elven Magic, Weapon Familiarity, Low-Light Vision, Channel Energy 3/day 4d6, Spontaneous Casting, Eyes of the Hawk, Animal Companion, Touch of Good
Combat Gear +1 Composite Longbow (2str), Masterwork Morning Star, 20 Arrows, 20 blunt arrows, 5 smoke arrows, 20 Cold Iron arrows, 5 Acid Flasks, 3 Alchemist Fire, +1 Breastplate. Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Cloak of Resistance +1, 100 chalk, 2 anti-plague, 2 anti-toxin, Masterwork Backpack, Efficient Quiver, Wand of Cure Light Wounds 50 charges, Holy symbol, 226 gold pieces
Encumbrance light 58 lbs., Medium 116 lbs., Heavy 175 lbs. Weight Carried 56 lbs.
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Channel Energy (Su) Three times per day you may release a burst of positive energy in a 30-ft. radius
burst as a standard action. When doing so you can choose to harm undead creatures in the area (4d6
damage, Will DC 13 half) or to heal the living (4d6 healing).
Touch of Good (Su) Six times per day you can touch a creature as a standard action, granting a +3 sacred
bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws for 1 round.


Aslan
CG Lion
Animal Companion of Kanahel
Init +4 Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent, Perception +2
DEFENSES
AC 24 Touch 15 Flat Foot 19 (+4 Armor, +5 Natural, +1 Dodge, +4 Dex)
HP 39 (6HD)
Fort +7, Reflex +9, Will +4 (+8 vs. Enchantments)
OFFENSES
Speed 40, 8 squares
Melee Bite +7 (1d6+2)
2 Claws +6(1d4+2)
Rake 2d4+2
Ranged –
STATISTICS
Abilities Str 15 (+2), Dex 19 (+4), Con 14 (+2), Int 2 (-4), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 10 (+0)
BAB 4, CMB + 6, CMD 21
Feats Light Armor Proficiency, Weapon Focus Bite, Dodge
Skills Acrobatics +12, Perception +2, Stealth +2
SQ Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion
Combat Gear MW Chain Barding

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Put together a cleric of Erastil (Favored weapon Longbow) and take the Channel Smite and Guided Hand feats. That will allow you to use your WIS as both your spellcasting and attack stats. Start out with at least a 13 DEX to qualify for your necessary archery feats like Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot. You're going to be low on feats to complete the archery chain, so once you've grabbed your essentials you are better off focusing on feats like Extend Spell to get more out of your buffs. Boosts like Righteous Might can be nice since your Dex is less critical to your build (though you'll probably want at least a 15 by the time you're casting this spell), and goes well with a bow with the Adaptive quality. Spells like Divine Favor, Divine Power, Daybreak Arrow, and Badger's Ferocity are all great for increasing the functionality of the build.


LazarX wrote:
The Paladin archetype (Divine Hunter) not divine enough for you?

I think that makes a great archery paladin, but I'm looking for something that still keeps the main benefits of the cleric class - full casting, channel energy, domain benefits, etc. I don't require PURE cleric, but I want more divine then paladin and ranger.

The Inquisitor is close, but I see it more as a divine version of the bard, not an archery cleric.


Well, Inquisitors and Paladins make pretty awesome archers, but if you insist on being a cleric, then there are still options.

First you need proficiency with a bow... a few way to do this: multiclass into something proficient, worship a god whose favored weapon is a bow (preferably longbow, but shortbows are okay), or play an elf.

Then you need a good way to add damage to your attacks. Divine Favor and Divine Power work great here, and the latter is especially nice if no one in your group has haste. Sadly, most domains won't give you any bonuses to ranged damage... a couple help melee, but give damage bonuses to your attacks. If you're worshipping Erastil, you might as well take good so you can make you arrows holy. The War domain, if you can take it, gives you a buff for party members, and eventually lets you take a combat feat of your choice, which is nice since there are a lot of useful ones for archer.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Fergie wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The Paladin archetype (Divine Hunter) not divine enough for you?

I think that makes a great archery paladin, but I'm looking for something that still keeps the main benefits of the cleric class - full casting, channel energy, domain benefits, etc. I don't require PURE cleric, but I want more divine then paladin and ranger.

The Inquisitor is close, but I see it more as a divine version of the bard, not an archery cleric.

The only real advantage to Divine Hunter anyways is the free Precise Shot feat. You lose all of the standard Paladin auras in exchange for auras that grant feats that most party members who will be using ranged attacks will have anyways. You're generally better taking the core paladin build and picking up archery feats and a mount.


Guided Hand is pretty damn good!

Righteous Might isn't great because even with the adaptive bow, you are trading a -3 to hit for +2 damage.

Ayrphish, I like it. I think your attack bonus is great, but the bow damage is a little low for level 7. Also, how are you getting an animal companion?


Guided Hand is nice, but it does require you to take Channel Smite, which is completely useless for a ranged attacker. And as a ranged attacker, you're probably already hurting for feats, unless you pick up some bonus ones by multiclassing.


If I can make a perfectly playable archer druid, you can make a perfectly playable archer cleric.

All you need are the basic archery feats and some means of gaining bow proficiency. The easiest way to do that is with racial proficiency, but if you go human, you can pick up the feat. Or you can take "heirloom weapon" trait until you can afford bracers of archery.

Archery is all about the feat tree. Any class can be an archer.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Fergie wrote:

***

Righteous Might isn't great because even with the adaptive bow, you are trading a -3 to hit for +2 damage.

***

Wrong! Remember, we aren't using DEX to hit, we're using WIS. So the DEX penalty doesn't matter. We're also increasing the size of our bow from 1d8 to 2d6 in addition to the increased STR damage.


I don't think you're giving the cleric spell list enough credit when it comes to buffing. Note that quite a few of them give differently typed bonuses and therefore stack with each other (morale, luck, sacred/profane)

I'd personally stay away from the Animal domain (your blockers should be some of the other party members) and instead go for something that fits your theme (unless you're going for a more ranger like cleric) Make the domains a choice that works with the picture you have of your cleric.

How you get the bow proficiency again depends a bit on your style and what kind of flavour the cleric is supposed to have.

If you feel like dipping into a martial class paladin, ranger and fighter are all good choices. In the long run I'd probably go for the second level in that class as well (or maybe even start with two levels in that class and let the character find his divine calling later on). Gives you an extra feat in the case of fighter and ranger and a boost to saves and access to LoH in case of the Paladin. Paladin should probably be a divine hunter so you get Precise shot for free.

[one of these would probably be my choice since the other two options seem a bit more restrictive in terms of character flavour and/or resources - but if it goes well with what you have in mind that doesn't really matter]

You could always just take the feat, but you don't have too many of those flying around.

If you want it through your deity Golarion gives you the following options: Erastil(LG), elemental lord of air Hshurha(NE), nascent demon lord Shamira(CE) [the only ones I found with a quick look - but there may be more] which greatly limits the available domains.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

If I can make a perfectly playable archer druid, you can make a perfectly playable archer cleric.

All you need are the basic archery feats and some means of gaining bow proficiency. The easiest way to do that is with racial proficiency, but if you go human, you can pick up the feat. Or you can take "heirloom weapon" trait until you can afford bracers of archery.

Archery is all about the feat tree. Any class can be an archer.

Well, I don't want to imply that I'm looking for a min-max munchkin character or something, but there are fairly big differences.

For example, a bard with arcane strike, inspire courage, heroism and haste, is going to have a MAJOR advantage over the cleric, and have the entire party (and local bar wenches) chanting his name. Other then arcane strike, they can have the same feats, each take an action or two buffing, but the bard is going to be something like +4/+4 better off then the cleric.


LazarX wrote:
Fergie wrote:

There are several ways to make an awesome bard archer, and a whole prestige class for mixing the arcane classes with archery, but what about a divine archer?

The Paladin archetype (Divine Hunter) not divine enough for you?

Divine hunter is actually a pretty bad archetype, you're better off just being a normal Paladin with a bow.

To OP:An archer Cleric is certainly viable, just a little MAD and feat hungry. To lessen the feat problems you can take the Crusader Archetype and you'll be set, just pick a race or god that grants a ranged weapon and you're golden.

Fergie wrote:


Well, I don't want to imply that I'm looking for a min-max munchkin character or something, but there are fairly big differences.

For example, a bard with arcane strike, inspire courage, heroism and haste, is going to have a MAJOR advantage over the cleric, and have the entire party (and local bar wenches) chanting his name. Other then arcane strike, they can have the same feats, each take an action or two buffing, but the bard is going to be something like +4/+4 better off then the cleric.

When you're a Cleric Archer, remember that you're a buffer first and an archer second.

Haste is just a slightly inferior Blessing of Fervor that you can already cast, albeit one level higher. You have plenty of buffs to be on par with the bard. Arcane Strike isn't too big of an advantage so don't get hung up on that.


Ssalarn wrote:

Fergie -Righteous Might isn't great because even with the adaptive bow, you are trading a -3 to hit for +2 damage.

*****

Wrong! Remember, we aren't using DEX to hit, we're using WIS. So the DEX penalty doesn't matter. We're also increasing the size of our bow from 1d8 to 2d6 in addition to the increased STR damage.

Opps, you are correct about the not using dex, but the size penalty would still apply, and the bow damage would stay 1d8 - check the last paragraph of the spell.

So Righteous Might would be -1 to hit +2 damage.


Crusader Archetype, assuming elf, half elf, etc for bow proficiency or god proficiency.

(1)Guided Hand
(1)Point Blank Shot
(3)Precise Shot
(5)Rapid Shot
(5)Weapon Focus
(7)Deadly Aim
(9)Many Shot
(10)Weapon Specialization
and so on. If you're a human you can bump all those feats down and get Weapon Specialization at 5 and Greater Weapon Specialization at 10. If you rolled for stats and got good rolls you can forgo Guided Hand.


Fergie wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

If I can make a perfectly playable archer druid, you can make a perfectly playable archer cleric.

All you need are the basic archery feats and some means of gaining bow proficiency. The easiest way to do that is with racial proficiency, but if you go human, you can pick up the feat. Or you can take "heirloom weapon" trait until you can afford bracers of archery.

Archery is all about the feat tree. Any class can be an archer.

Well, I don't want to imply that I'm looking for a min-max munchkin character or something, but there are fairly big differences.

For example, a bard with arcane strike, inspire courage, heroism and haste, is going to have a MAJOR advantage over the cleric, and have the entire party (and local bar wenches) chanting his name. Other then arcane strike, they can have the same feats, each take an action or two buffing, but the bard is going to be something like +4/+4 better off then the cleric.

I thought the thread was "can it be done?" Not "How do I optimize a cleric archer to compete with paladin smiting archers."

My bad.

Liberty's Edge

Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

Crusader Archetype, assuming elf, half elf, etc for bow proficiency or god proficiency.

(1)Guided Hand
(1)Point Blank Shot

Except not, because you need Channel Smite before you can take Guided Hand.


You will ultimately have better AC than the Paladin if you invest in Heavy Armor Proficiency due to favoring wisdom over dex, so there's that. You're also a full caster, which has tremendous benefits. Your bow itself will never outpace an Inquisitor or Paladin, but you sure have a lot more versatility.


Shisumo wrote:
Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

Crusader Archetype, assuming elf, half elf, etc for bow proficiency or god proficiency.

(1)Guided Hand
(1)Point Blank Shot

Except not, because you need Channel Smite before you can take Guided Hand.

That's an issue. Then I guess to do what I wrote there you'd have to be a human.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Fergie wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

Fergie -Righteous Might isn't great because even with the adaptive bow, you are trading a -3 to hit for +2 damage.

*****

Wrong! Remember, we aren't using DEX to hit, we're using WIS. So the DEX penalty doesn't matter. We're also increasing the size of our bow from 1d8 to 2d6 in addition to the increased STR damage.

Opps, you are correct about the not using dex, but the size penalty would still apply, and the bow damage would stay 1d8 - check the last paragraph of the spell.

So Righteous Might would be -1 to hit +2 damage.

Ah, fair enough. I missed that last little bit. Saw the "All equipment you wear or carry is similarly enlarged by the spell" missed the "This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage".

Still, the STR increase is a size bonus that will stack with enhancement bonuses to STR, and with a spell like Divine Power in place you should be doing all right.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

As archers, clerics have a couple of tricks up their sleeve.

Divine Favor/Divine Power - They don't stack anymore, but you are looking at +1 hit/dam per 3 levels that stacks with everything. Divine Power also replaces the need for haste.

Evangelist - all the bonus of being a bard with a cleric's spell set.

Adaptive enchant - clerics make use of a lot of spells that temporarily boost your strength, prior to this enchant, the cleric had to eat the damage loss.

Prayer bead of karma + extend spell - make those hour/level buff spells +4 caster level, and make them last all day long. This alows you to focus on getting extra damage from your bow, and let your spells buff your + to hit.

So here is my attempt
Level 10 Human Evangelist Archer Cleric
20 point buy
Str 14
Dex 24 16 base +2 racial +2 level +4 belt of dex
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 16 14 base +2 headband
Chr 10

Gear
+1 Adaptive Composite Longbow - 3500
Mithril Breastplate - 4350
Cloak of Resistance +3 - 9000
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 - 8000
Prayer Bead(Karma) - 20000
Belt of Dexterity +4 - 16000

Domains
For domain abilities, Freedom is the best domain, but travel is pretty good.
I would probably go with Heroism domain give you access to the Heroism spell which is a solid +2 to hit for 10 min/level and the domain abilities are nice too.
If you pick Erastil, then you don't have to burn a feat on weapon profiency, which means you can get weapon focus.

Feats
Trait - Armor Expert knocks the non-proiency penalty for the armor to -0, so you don't have to get medium armor profiency.
1st: Weapon Profiency
1st: Point Blank Shot
3rd: Precise Shot
5th: Rapid shot
7th: Deadly Aim
9th: Extend spell

So, with the karma bead, your extended greater magic weapon and extended magic armor spells give your bow and armor a +3 enhancement bonus, and last for 28 hours.

That puts your AC at 23 with the option to add +3 via Divine Shield

To hit: +8 base, +3 enhancement, +7 dex, +2 heroism = +20 to hit.
Damage = 1d8 + 5 = 9.5 per shot.

Round 1: Inspire courage as a Move Action, then cast Divine Power
+5 to hit/damage for you, +2 for everyone else.
Round 2: Full attack with divine power, deadly aim, and rapid shot is +20/+20/+20/+15 for 1d8 + 16 = 20.5 damage per shot.
Against an AC of 24 you are looking at about 71 damage per round.

That is if you only get 1 round to buff. If you have more time to buff, you can...
Bull's Strength - +2 damage per shot
Righteous Might - -1 to hit, +2 to damage + defensive bonuses
Weapon of Awe - +2 damage, causes shaken on crit
That would boost you to 90.5 damage per round.

My experience has been that clerics make solid archers, but if given 3-4 rounds to buff, they are possibly the best archers. You are keeping up in damage, while being a full divine caster.


Ssalarn wrote:

Ah, fair enough. I missed that last little bit. Saw the "All equipment you wear or carry is similarly enlarged by the spell" missed the "This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage".

Still, the STR increase is a size bonus that will stack with enhancement bonuses to STR, and with a spell like Divine Power in place you should be doing all right.

Or with a cool quiver (forgot the name) that lets you store all kind of stuff in it. You can keep Large arrows for just such an occasion.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Slacker2010 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

Ah, fair enough. I missed that last little bit. Saw the "All equipment you wear or carry is similarly enlarged by the spell" missed the "This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage".

Still, the STR increase is a size bonus that will stack with enhancement bonuses to STR, and with a spell like Divine Power in place you should be doing all right.

Or with a cool quiver (forgot the name) that lets you store all kind of stuff in it. You can keep Large arrows for just such an occasion.

Having some Large-sized arrows on hand and Abundant Ammunition would get you your 2d6 damage.

Cleric's generally won't have as many attacks as other archers, or be able to travel as far down the archery chains as quickly, but a well built cleric can buff the unholy hell (or holy heaven...?) out of themselves and drop some fairly serious damage. The nice part of snagging Guided Hand is that you can pump your WIS pretty consistently and increase your casting ability and combat ability simultaneously.

I like the Crusader archetype for the bonus feats you get from it, but the loss of a domain and diminished spellcasting are costs I'm much more likely to pay on a melee character than a ranged one since the ranged Cleric is even more dependent on maintaining his buffs to deal damage than the melee one.


Fergie wrote:

Guided Hand is pretty damn good!

Righteous Might isn't great because even with the adaptive bow, you are trading a -3 to hit for +2 damage.

Ayrphish, I like it. I think your attack bonus is great, but the bow damage is a little low for level 7. Also, how are you getting an animal companion?

I made some conscious decisions to ignore some +damage in return for +hit, the goal was to rarely miss and to compensate some of the arrow damage with the lion.

The cleric has the lower BAB and is dependent on Wis/Dex and to a lesser degree Str/Con. So, things like rapid shot, and deadly aim which would help a lot with damage would make that lower BAB even more painful.

The lion comes from the Feather (Animal) Domain.


See if you are allowed to get the Guided weapon enhancement from Pathfinder #10

Guided

Doesn't look like it's for Melee only and lets you use your Wisdom for atk and dmg


BuzzardB wrote:

See if you are allowed to get the Guided weapon enhancement from Pathfinder #10

Guided

Doesn't look like it's for Melee only and lets you use your Wisdom for atk and dmg

Tough call. It mentions using strength several times, which implies it is talking about melee weapons, but it never outright states it is for melee only.


Ssalarn wrote:
Slacker2010 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

Ah, fair enough. I missed that last little bit. Saw the "All equipment you wear or carry is similarly enlarged by the spell" missed the "This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage".

Still, the STR increase is a size bonus that will stack with enhancement bonuses to STR, and with a spell like Divine Power in place you should be doing all right.

Or with a cool quiver (forgot the name) that lets you store all kind of stuff in it. You can keep Large arrows for just such an occasion.

Having some Large-sized arrows on hand and Abundant Ammunition would get you your 2d6 damage.

Cleric's generally won't have as many attacks as other archers, or be able to travel as far down the archery chains as quickly, but a well built cleric can buff the unholy hell (or holy heaven...?) out of themselves and drop some fairly serious damage. The nice part of snagging Guided Hand is that you can pump your WIS pretty consistently and increase your casting ability and combat ability simultaneously.

I like the Crusader archetype for the bonus feats you get from it, but the loss of a domain and diminished spellcasting are costs I'm much more likely to pay on a melee character than a ranged one since the ranged Cleric is even more dependent on maintaining his buffs to deal damage than the melee one.

Hmm, I hadn't though about keeping larger arrows in an efficient quiver... That would make righteous might a -1 hit +3.5 dam.

I haven't played an archer cleric since it came out, but I am fairly sold on the evangelist cleric for an archer. You lose one domain(not that big of a deal), lose medium armor profiency(not a big deal for a dex heavy cleric), and gain bardic inspire courage(+hit/+dam for everyone)


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I thought the thread was "can it be done?" Not "How do I optimize a cleric archer to compete with paladin smiting archers."

My bad.

No, don't say that! Now I feel like some damn dirty munchkin trying to break the game and cheat in the DPR Olympics. The Lance Armstrong of Pathfinder Archery - snicker snicker

I'm not trying to be better then any of the martial classes, and if I did find a way to make a full caster consistently better at melee or archery then the full BAB classes, I would probably ban it from my campaign. I just have played two or three clerics now that need to put their bow away at around level 5 in order to deal with CR appropriate foes. I want a cleric who can keep using the bow, and I'm willing to give up other class powers to do that.

I think both the Crusader and the Evangelist are great options, neither is more powerful then a normal cleric, and neither is more powerful then a martial character.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Charender wrote:
BuzzardB wrote:

See if you are allowed to get the Guided weapon enhancement from Pathfinder #10

Guided

Doesn't look like it's for Melee only and lets you use your Wisdom for atk and dmg

Tough call. It mentions using strength several times, which implies it is talking about melee weapons, but it never outright states it is for melee only.

It does, however, state that you WIS in palce of STR, no mention of DEX. Unless you're using STR to hit with your ranged attacks, I'd say it's a no-go.


Ssalarn wrote:
Charender wrote:
BuzzardB wrote:

See if you are allowed to get the Guided weapon enhancement from Pathfinder #10

Guided

Doesn't look like it's for Melee only and lets you use your Wisdom for atk and dmg

Tough call. It mentions using strength several times, which implies it is talking about melee weapons, but it never outright states it is for melee only.
It does, however, state that you WIS in palce of STR, no mention of DEX. Unless you're using STR to hit with your ranged attacks, I'd say it's a no-go.

touché salesman


Ssalarn wrote:
It does, however, state that you WIS in palce of STR, no mention of DEX. Unless you're using STR to hit with your ranged attacks, I'd say it's a no-go.

Im using the d20pfsrd but the discription doesnt use the wording "in place of" it says:

Guided Weapon wrote:
A weapon with the guided property allows its wielder to use his instinct when striking blows with it. Attacks from a guided weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier.

Sorry I dont have the book its from, in case the website was wrong.

Click HERE for my source.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Slacker2010 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
It does, however, state that you WIS in palce of STR, no mention of DEX. Unless you're using STR to hit with your ranged attacks, I'd say it's a no-go.

Im using the d20pfsrd but the discription doesnt use the wording "in place of" it says:

Guided Weapon wrote:
A weapon with the guided property allows its wielder to use his instinct when striking blows with it. Attacks from a guided weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier.

Sorry I dont have the book its from, in case the website was wrong.

Click HERE for my source.

Your own quote says "A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier".


That statement is still true for range attacks. He isn't using his STR mod for range attacks.

I understand your point is that because of "not his Strength modifier" would imply its suppose to only be used for melee attacks. But no where in there does it specify melee attacks.


I'm playing an Archer Cleric in a campaign. I started Human with 16 dex and wis, using racial bonuses for dex. I took two fighter levels to give myself the feats I needed to use a longbow properly (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus). Finally I'm going full cleric, putting all stat bonuses from level into wisdom. I took Travel Domain and Animal Domain. Travel for the move speed, and Animal for the Companion and the campaign is very nature focused. I then took Extra Channel (because I didn't know what else to take), Boon Companion (to bring my animal companion to one level below mine), and I'm taking Leadership at level 9 to recruit another body to run defense while I sit in the back.

For the most part I play a buffer. I take spells like Bless, Prayer, Bulls Strength, etc. I rarely take Save or Suck spells, with the exception of hold and dominate animal. I take Fog Cloud at least once per day, as my party is built around fighting in it, but that's just me. I say if it has a DC, it's probably not best to take it because the save will be fairly easy to make. I spend the first two or three rounds buffing allies, and possibly debuffing enemies with Bestow Curse or Prayer, then sit in the back using Rapid Shot and Point Blank Shot to get off what damage I can. My animal companion (an Ankylosaurus, there are dinosaurs in the campaign) acts as a wall for myself or our other cleric.

So far it's working out well.


I think I'm going to pass on the whole Guided weapon property thing.

It was written for 3.5, before Pathfinder existed.

It is worded in a way that strongly implies it is specifically for melee weapons.

I'm not big on the idea of relying on a fairly expensive weapon in order to get wisdom bonus to attacks. I wound not want my character to have a crappy dex for the first several levels, and if I have an OK dex, I would hardly see any benefit from the guided weapon, as opposed to just getting a +2 bow.

Again, I'm trying to keep this close to Core+APG, and things that are not even in the PRD are off the list.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Slacker2010 wrote:

That statement is still true for range attacks. He isn't using his STR mod for range attacks.

I understand your point is that because of "not his Strength modifier" would imply its suppose to only be used for melee attacks. But no where in there does it specify melee attacks.

That's some serious munchkinism you're displaying right there. The power makes it clear that you are using Wisdom in place of Strength, otherwise it wouldn't even mention it in the power.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Fergie wrote:

I think I'm going to pass on the whole Guided weapon property thing.

It was written for 3.5, before Pathfinder existed.

It is worded in a way that strongly implies it is specifically for melee weapons.

I'm not big on the idea of relying on a fairly expensive weapon in order to get wisdom bonus to attacks. I wound not want my character to have a crappy dex for the first several levels, and if I have an OK dex, I would hardly see any benefit from the guided weapon, as opposed to just getting a +2 bow.

Again, I'm trying to keep this close to Core+APG, and things that are not even in the PRD are off the list.

If you want to Wisdom load, you're far better off going the Guided Hand route than relying on a weapon property anyways.


Ssalarn wrote:
That's some serious munchkinism you're displaying right there. The power makes it clear that you are using Wisdom in place of Strength, otherwise it wouldn't even mention it in the power.

I think that's a harsh way to lash out. I don't believe i'm a munchkin in any fashion. If you came up with some qualifications for it i'm sure none of my characters qualify. I'm that guy that hates/doesn't dump any stats.

Back to the discussion. We are discussing the rules and the way they are worded. If the ability needs to be rewritten I'm all for it, but right now it doesnt specify melee weapons.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Slacker2010 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
That's some serious munchkinism you're displaying right there. The power makes it clear that you are using Wisdom in place of Strength, otherwise it wouldn't even mention it in the power.

I think that's a harsh way to lash out. I don't believe i'm a munchkin in any fashion. If you came up with some qualifications for it i'm sure none of my characters qualify. I'm that guy that hates/doesn't dump any stats.

Back to the discussion. We are discussing the rules and the way they are worded. If the ability needs to be rewritten I'm all for it, but right now it doesnt specify melee weapons.

It shouldn't need to since it is specifying that you use Wisdom, not Strength. That basically just disqualifies projectile weapons, as it could still have some impact on thrown weapons. Absolutely everything about the power makes it clear that you are using Wisdom instead of Strength. They aren't going to rewrite an ability from a five year old AP module designed for the 3.5 rules-set unless they decide to reprint the AP like they did for RotRL, so pretending that's an option is just silly. Given the age of the printing, if there is any uncertainty about the functionality one needs to look at intent, and it is very clear that the intent of the ability is to use WIS in place of STR.


Let us go back to the original question. Is this a thought experiment, or do you need a PC for a campaign?

If so, and assuming you want to play a Cleric (good choice) why Archer? Take small size, and deal out damage by means of spells. As a cleric archer you will always fall behind full archers for DpR and full clerics for everything else. You will need to burn three feats which are much better used for Channeling and spellcasting. You will need to boost DEX at the cost of CHA. Etc.

Leave the archery for rangers, fighters and Zen monks. You have much more powerful assets at your command.

Also, guys can we take the Guided weapon debate to another thread, as per the Op’s request?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

DrDeth wrote:

Let us go back to the original question. Is this a thought experiment, or do you need a PC for a campaign?

If so, and assuming you want to play a Cleric (good choice) why Archer? Take small size, and deal out damage by means of spells. As a cleric archer you will always fall behind full archers for DpR and full clerics for everything else. You will need to burn three feats which are much better used for Channeling and spellcasting. You will need to boost DEX at the cost of CHA. Etc.

Leave the archery for rangers, fighters and Zen monks. You have much more powerful assets at your command.

Also, guys can we take the Guided weapon debate to another thread, as per the Op’s request?

As Fergie mentioned earlier in the thread, he enjoys playing a cleric but has noticed in the past that his attempts have usually forced him to put away the bow around level 5 or so to remain effective.

Clerics certainly aren't ever going to be the best archers in the game, but if you like the flavor of a bow-wielding cleric, a deity like Erastil who gets the Longbow as a favored weapon can certainly be effective throughout.
I think one of the biggest problems with ranged clerics has less to do with them getting the feats and abilities to be effective archers (which they can compensate for with various buffs), and more to do with the fact that many of their healing abilities require them to be in closer proximity to the melee party members than someone using a weapon with a 100 ft. range increment would typically find themselves.


My experience with a Clerical Archer based character is entirely pre PF (late AD&D/3.0/3.5). Whatever path you end up taking I suspect you'll want to minimize the time spent buffing which means the ability to Quicken your spells via feat, item, whatever. Though I see one difference between PF and before is they've rendered Quicken Divine Favor+Divine Power moot, both being luck bonuses, I've no doubt there's other buff combo's that would benefit. Quicken would also help with the issue Ssalarn mentions (risk of melee attack/AoO's). Based on my experience I also think it's no more of a risk for an archer than any spell caster maybe less, those buffs would be many of the same buffs a melee oriented cleric build would use. The only time I tended to be any where near multiple 100's of feet away vs say 30 feet was generally circumstantial or when I was scouting well ahead of the group (my build was also extremely stealthy especially at higher levels). Shouldn't be too rough to be a Move + Standard Action from those you might need to touch for healing.

Work and life calls for now.


My 2nd PFS character is an archer cleric, and I've been having a great time, AND have consistently been one of the most useful characters in the party in every scenario I've played. I do solid damage, I buff, I heal people after the battle (not during), and I have skills.

My build so far...

Erastil (for longbow)

14 STR
16 DEX
14 CON (+1 at 4)
12 INT
14 WIS
10 CHA

Feats: PBS, Precise, Rapid (3), Deadly Aim (5)

Buy the bracers of falcon's aim (+1 to hit, double crit range, +3 to perception) for 4000gp. Also one or more pendants of the blood scarab (autoconfirm a crit once per day in exchange for doing 1d6 dam to yourself... but autoconfirm on 19-20 with a x3 is pretty worth it for 1000gp)

with my +1 comp longbow of +2 STR, at point blank, deadly aim, dual shot, I'm +6/+6 1d8+6 crit on 19-20. I did over 40hp damage in one round last scenario with two hits, one a crit I autoconfimed, against the BBEG.

And yeah, don't forget the self/party buffs. I'm usually +7/+7 due to bless. Divine favor gives me another +2 to hit and damage for a minute now, so +9+/+9 for 1d8+8 crit on 19-20 with a precombat bless and 1st round/surprise round divine favor.

My 3rd level spell is summon monster 3, auroch or lantern archon. Silence is a standard 2nd, since as long as you don't cast it ON the BBEG caster there's no save. Shield other is another standard for the party tank, I take half his damage, which is fine, since I'm never in melee.

Not sure how this would mature to level 15, but so far, yeah, it's been great.


You could also worship the Empyreal Lord named Ylimancha. Alignment is Neutral Good, you get the Longbow (favored weapon), you get the Feather Subdomain (for the cool perception bonus AND an animal companion at level -4). Even if you don't get subdomains in your game, the Animal domain is the base for Feather so you could still get the animal companion. You can also then pick up Air, Water, or Good domains.

So I could totally see a Cleric of Ylimancha riding some kind of animal companion, maybe later one that flies, all while wielding a bow. Cool!


Fergie wrote:


I'm not trying to be better then any of the martial classes, and if I did find a way to make a full caster consistently better at melee or archery then the full BAB classes, I would probably ban it from my campaign. I just have played two or three clerics now that need to put their bow away at around level 5 in order to deal with CR appropriate foes. I want a cleric who can keep using the bow, and I'm willing to give up other class powers to do that.

I think both the Crusader and the Evangelist are great options, neither is more powerful then a normal cleric, and neither is more powerful then a martial character.

I have played acher clerics up into the low teens, and if you are picking the right feats, spells, and gear, you will keep up with the fighters in the group...

But that is where the problems usually comes in. If you are going to play a martial focused cleric(archer or melee), you have to be a little more selfish in your spell selection. A lot of the spells you need to be effective might be better spent buffing the party. For example, casting bless(+1 hit to allies) instead of divine favor(+1 hit/damage per 3 levels for you). Using your spell slots for buffs spells also reduce your healing abilities. In my experience, nothing pisses the dedicated martial types off more than when a cleric buffs themselves, then proceeds to out damage them. A lot of players will give you advice on how to play your cleric for the good of the group, but they do not realize that taking enemies down quickly is for the good of the group. Finally, I do not play a cleric to be the fighter's dedicated heal and buff bot, and I have no problems telling them that.

In short, you have to give up your role as buffbot and healer to be an effective battle cleric(archer or melee), but if you do, you will more than pull your weight in the damage dealing department.


With good intel, precombat buff stage can be as many spells as you want. With a few pearls of power, you should have enough spellcasting to buff both yourself and others.

And healing, though some may disagree, is a strictly out of combat/between encounter cleric function. And being a cleric and so still able to wield those wands of clw, you can still be the party healer without dedicating combat rounds to it.

Just going to illustrate some more based on the game I played tonight, as a cleric archer.

Yes, the barbarian did more damage. But I still did consistent damage (13-15 dpr) at level 5 in a 5-6 tier scenario (PFS) with rapid shot and one shot per round missing on average against 16-20AC baddies. And when it counted, I (perhaps lucky,) with my bracers of falcon's aim rolled a 19, and with my pendant of the blood scarab autoconfirmed the crit, to do 44 hp dam against the BBEG, dropping him in one round.

And, the BBEG was in fact a caster as I suspected (Oracle with Fire), so that Silence I threw up pre-combat totally shut the BBEG casting down.

And, the Shield Other I put on the Barbarian with only 17 AC (out of rage, 15 AC in) allowed him to stand up front swinging for much longer.

So again, yes, archer cleric is not only viable, but powerful. And that's even before I knew about Ylimancha! (good find Animation!)

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Archer Cleric - can it be done? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.