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It's not like he was geared or statted up like he was naively thinking these devils were always going to play nice. Flaming is silly.
I agree. He even has items designed to counter the effects of the Cerberi should they turn on him.
Speaking of, if the players decide, for whatever, reason to release (or whatever) the hell hounds and cerberi in the cages while on Avernus and they failed to recover Heriphis' stash of remove curse, wouldn't they be denied the ability to use the gate to return to Golarion? At that point are they talking about a simple 5PP recovery mission or would you consider them dead due to an eventual onslaught of devils (upon discovery) and add in raise/res costs? I doubt it'll happen, but sometimes, players do unexplainable things. :-)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston
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Ok, having run this yesterday...
The skill checks in talking to each officer is effectively a skill challenge from D&D 4e (and one of the things that didn't work for me in that system either). The characters are not trying to improve attitudes (because if that's the case... well it's IMPOSSIBLE to do this in a day of gametime, especially if the group only has one face character, because checks to improve attitude can only be done by one PC to a specific NPC once every 24 hours).
I guess it can be argued that they're to determine how well the arguments the PCs are making to the officer are constructed.
However, well constructed or horribly constructed arguments aside... the evidence is the evidence is the evidence. The group has evidence that should at least call for a new trial if nothing else, and a group as legal bound as the Hellknights in general and the Order of the Nail specifically, that should be enough. Unless they have something to call into question the validity of the evidence (something not impossible because the Pathfinders aren't trusted enough to operate legally in Cheliax in the first place), the evidence should be enough on its own merits.
Besides, unless you have a character that played both parts (difficult because of the level spread), all the PCs can say is "this is what was given to us to present to you." That's either enough to get a new trial... or be thrown out completely. If it's thrown out completely (something that the Society should realize is a possibility)... then NONE of the Hellknight officers should accept it and remove the PCs from the premise.
(It's just as well that most PCs at the table for FotN haven't played The Disappeared.... because
That being said... I did like that this scenario takes things from previous adventures/missions that another team has done and build on that experience. Except that for any PC to relate those experiences (for example, the scenarios mentioned in other messages here as roleplay fodder for the arguments) to the group in the progress of the roleplaying could spoil those scenarios for the rest of the players (and in some cases the GM).
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However, well constructed or horribly constructed arguments aside... the evidence is the evidence is the evidence. The group has evidence that should at least call for a new trial if nothing else, and a group as legal bound as the Hellknights in general and the Order of the Nail specifically, that should be enough. Unless they have something to call into question the validity of the evidence (something not impossible because the Pathfinders aren't trusted enough to operate legally in Cheliax in the first place), the evidence should be enough on its own merits.
The order of the nail is not concerned with trials and such. Heck its possible that some of their prisoners have not even been tried/convicted of a crime yet, but are being held over for trial based on credible evidence. They are a 3rd party incarceration entity. They are merely functioning as a contractor to hold (perhaps indefinitely) or execute a prisoner based on the nation turning said prisoner over to them. Of course there is a fee involved as well. Unless/until someone can prove that a prisoner is clearly not guilty of the crimes they were convicted of, the order will continue to perform their duty. However, since they are also devoted to the absolute application of the law, it would violate their tenets to keep a prisoner incarcerated if they were aware of evidence to the contrary. I would assume that immediately after releasing Zarta, they would send a report of events to Cheliax explaining their actions.
...all the PCs can say is "this is what was given to us to present to you."
Sorry, but that is lazy role-play. If the players don't want to role-play the encounters, fine, just resolve them with dice rolls. That is something the GM should be aware of at the start of the session.
It's just as well that most PCs at the table for FotN haven't played The Disappeared because...
If they were involved, why would they volunteer that info to the hellknights?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston
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The order of the nail is not concerned with trials and such. Heck its possible that some of their prisoners have not even been tried/convicted of a crime yet, but are being held over for trial based on credible evidence. They are a 3rd party incarceration entity. They are merely functioning as a contractor to hold (perhaps indefinitely) or execute a prisoner based on the nation turning said prisoner over to them. Of course there is a fee involved as well. Unless/until someone can prove that a prisoner is clearly not guilty of the crimes they were convicted of, the order will continue to perform their duty. However, since they are also devoted to the absolute application of the law, it would violate their tenets to keep a prisoner incarcerated if they were aware of evidence to the contrary. I would assume that immediately after releasing Zarta, they would send a report of events to Cheliax explaining their actions.
Then why does the Lictor seem surprised that someone would be turned over to them that's been falsely accused and wrongfully imprisoned? The system as you describe it seems a perfect mechanism for dumping innocent people into Citadel Vriad with an official looking piece of paper and a sack of gold every week/month/whatever the payment schedule is.
In addition, if they aren't concerned with trials and such, how can they, outside the boundaries of the legal system, just release Draleen to her Pathfinder allies based on evidence that the same Pathfinder allies present to them? Since they're supposed to be holding her in preparation for her trial, wouldn't the proper procedure be to contact the Chelaxian government right then and there, turn over the evidence, and request that the trial be started quickly to sort it all out?
...all the PCs can say is "this is what was given to us to present to you."Sorry, but that is lazy role-play. If the players don't want to role-play the encounters, fine, just resolve them with dice rolls. That is something the GM should be aware of at the start of the session.
How is that lazy roleplay? When any of the Hellknight officers ask the party, "Where/how did you come by this evidence? How do you know it's authentic?" is there another answer that the the PCs can give that isn't a lie?
Those questions should be the first two questions hat the Hellknight officers ask the PCs if they're competent at their jobs.
It's just as well that most PCs at the table for FotN haven't played The Disappeared because...If they were involved, why would they volunteer that info to the hellknights?
I'm sorry if I hadn't made it clear, but the players/characters on the table I ran didn't say that to the Hellknights. For one, the characters aren't told exactly how the evidence was obtained in the first place. Second, none of these PCs had played The Disappeared.
That statement was based on an assessment of what happened in The Disappeared. If there is a player on a future table of mine, or someone else's who *had* played The Disappeared with the same character before playing FotN... they're going to have to be very careful to not let the truth about the acquisition of the evidence slip because the Hellknights probably wouldn't take that PC's actions too kindly. Which means, in all likelihood, they'll need to lie. Which should trigger a Bluff vs Sense Motive roll. Which could then make things very very messy.
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I have to say I agree with mgcady. Especially about the holding contract thing. If the lictor has the authority to release a prisoner - especially one that is disappeared - they shouldn't act merely as a hold which is paid to keep prisoners in. The order should come from elsewhere. Otherwise the lictor should be aware of the evidence she's put in there.
Or will the Order of the Nail pay the high-up back the amount of gold they paid to keep Zarta inside?
I think we need a new book. "The Bureacracy and Politics of Cheliax".
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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The room the Lictor is in is set up as a court. They are certainly doing their own trials; their goals are to spread law throughout the land. How better to do that than to bring it yourself?
Something to remember: the Order of the Nail, while willing to take Cheliax's side, is NOT Chelaxian. They are mercenaries spreading the rule of law via the expansion of civilization. They will treat with any government they feel aligns with those goals; thus, they are near to Korvosa, as the Order feels they are best placed specifically paying attention to the lawlessness that runs rampant in Varisia.
To answer your questions without lying, however:
And I pointed out above that you need more evidence, and a good way of presenting it. Read the second spoiler in this post.
If you need more than that for your talking points, you're forgetting that this is a game, and holding a days-long trial isn't the goal of the game. There are three fights to get to, after all. (-:
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston
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Something to remember: the Order of the Nail, while willing to take Cheliax's side, is NOT Chelaxian. They are mercenaries spreading the rule of law via the expansion of civilization. They will treat with any government they feel aligns with those goals; thus, they are near to Korvosa, as the Order feels they are best placed specifically paying attention to the lawlessness that runs rampant in Varisia.
But if they're holding a prisoner for a Chelaxian trial, shouldn't Chelaxian law dictate the disposition and procedures in handling that prisoner?
To answer your questions without lying, however:
...
The next response should be, "And just how did they secure it?" Just how does one legally secure evidence from a Chelaxian embassy regarding a person who they're not even admitting exists? The Order of the Nail is flaunting their information network during the rest of the scenario... they have to know exactly that Draleen's been disavowed/dissapeared from the legal system.
"And how do we know that this isn't a really good forgery in itself to throw off suspicion from the prisoner?"
And I pointed out above that you need more evidence, and a good way of presenting it. Read the second spoiler in this post.
If you need more than that for your talking points, you're forgetting that this is a game, and holding a days-long trial isn't the goal of the game. There are three fights to get to, after all. (-:
I know a trial isn't the point of the game, but if you're going to have a situation where the PCs are going up against a bunch of legal eagles and they've been told to play by the legal eagles' rules... providing dubious evidence is not the way to give the PCs what they need to get what they want.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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If you want to know how the Order of the Nail interacts with the region and its governments then you should read about it.
As for coming up with even more questions: you're lawyering it. If you want to do that, you're working too hard. Let the players have fun and don't try so hard to poke holes in the game. I'll leave it at that.
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I had a great time running this, but two things I didn't like, when a faction mission requires failure by the PC's or presenting a really good reason to talk with someone outside the PC's main operation seems poor in my opinion. Also the main confrontation at tier 8-9 seems to be a bit low on the CR.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston
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If you want to know how the Order of the Nail interacts with the region and its governments then you should read about it.
As for coming up with even more questions: you're lawyering it. If you want to do that, you're working too hard. Let the players have fun and don't try so hard to poke holes in the game. I'll leave it at that.
I end up having to lawyer as self-defense from a decent proportion of the players I run for on a regular basis. Trust me, it would be much easier if I didn't have to.
I realize that I didn't thank you for the suggestions and discussions you made, so I'll do that now. :)
Edit: make that "Thank you everyone." (Headaches and typing don't always mix.)
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If you want to know how the Order of the Nail interacts with the region and its governments then you should read about it.
As for coming up with even more questions: you're lawyering it. If you want to do that, you're working too hard. Let the players have fun and don't try so hard to poke holes in the game. I'll leave it at that.
I end up having to lawyer as self-defense from a decent proportion of the players I run for on a regular basis. Trust me, it would be much easier if I didn't have to.
I realize that I didn't thank you for the suggestions and discussions you made, so I'll do that now. :)
Edit: make that "Thank you everyone." (Headaches and typing don't always mix.)
I always find that if I sit down to GM with an attitude of hating the scenario, that those are the times that the players question the scenario and what's going on. But if, as a GM, no matter how much I have to suck up the fact I hate the scenario (and there have been a couple), and just focus on providing an fun and interesting time, the players end up not questioning the scenario.
As a matter of fact, one of those tables was a blast for everyone, me included, and had at least 3 of 6 say it was the most fun they've had at a PFS convention table yet (and they go to all the big conventions).
So a lot of the time, its the GM attitude that causes these problems, and not the scenario.
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Sczarni Faction Mission: ** spoiler omitted **My immediately initial reaction was also one of "hmmmm, that kinda violates the basic rules laid out in the GtPFSOP." However, I am glad to see it and hope we see more of it. The idea that the faction mission give a character a free pass to do evil things or break the law with impunity has never set well with me. Anything that makes the player have to consider their actions and make hard decisions based on their personal advancement within the society vs. their morality is good for role-playing. The biggest issue will be for GMs not to spring it on the player as a surprise. If/when they decide their course of action, *you* have an obligation to inform them of the consequences. This is especially so since the base guidelines lead the player to believe they are safe.
So, by *me* I assume you mean the person running it, which wasn't me, which more often than not the people running scenarios don't read these threads.
I was a player at said table. I had no idea that this would happen, and the other players also had the idea that faction missions don't change your alignment.
I hope we *never* see more of this unless there is verbiage giving a role-playing opportunity *explicitly* for the GM so that the players can know what's going on. Not every GM thinks about these things, and not every GM thinks it's their responsibility to give these things to the players.
And why should they? There is no indication given to say that they should tell them if they should second guess their actions. The verbiage of the faction mission was also very poor.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I hope we *never* see more of this unless there is verbiage giving a role-playing opportunity *explicitly* for the GM so that the players can know what's going on. Not every GM thinks about these things, and not every GM thinks it's their responsibility to give these things to the players.
And why should they? There is no indication given to say that they should tell them if they should second guess their actions. The verbiage of the faction mission was also very poor.
The verbiage of the faction mission is terrible.
But every GM should know what the campaign rules are and how something like this might interact with those rules. More importantly, they should be aware of how a player might think those rules will interact with his mission.
And there *is* verbiage telling the GM that a PC killing the prisoner is an evil act. That, in and of itself, is the kind of thing a GM should not be approaching lightly. So, yes, every GM should be thinking about this. I will acknowledge, however, that not every GM does. And you're correct when you say that not everyone checks these threads (I'd actually go out on a limb and say that *most* do not check). Doesn't mean they shouldn't be aware of the rules of the campaign, nor does it mean they shouldn't have read the mission and be thinking about how to deal with that.
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The verbiage of the faction mission is terrible.
But every GM should know what the campaign rules are and how something like this might interact with those rules. More importantly, they should be aware of how a player might think those rules will interact with his mission.
And there *is* verbiage telling the GM that a PC killing the prisoner is an evil act. That, in and of itself, is the kind of thing a GM should not be approaching lightly. So, yes, every GM should be thinking about this. I will acknowledge, however, that not every GM does. And you're correct when you say that not everyone checks these threads (I'd actually go out on a limb and say that *most* do not check). Doesn't mean they shouldn't be aware of the rules of the campaign, nor does it mean they shouldn't have read the mission and be thinking about how to deal with that.
At least now people who see this thread will be more aware of how to approach this situation.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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And there *is* verbiage telling the GM that a PC killing the prisoner is an evil act. That, in and of itself, is the kind of thing a GM should not be approaching lightly.
It is, but it's an evil act assigned as a faction mission. The karmic burden rests with the faction leader; the PC is blameless.
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It is, but it's an evil act assigned as a faction mission. The karmic burden rests with the faction leader; the PC is blameless.
I think this falls under the auspices of specific rules over-ruling general ones. The general rule, as it appears in the GtPFSOP, is that factions missions will not impact your alignment. However, in this specific case/scenario, it appears taking certain actions to complete the mission will have a negative result. I don't have a problem with that as long as the GM notifies the player that the normal rules do not apply BEFORE said actions are taken. No fair telling me I can do what my faction heads tells me to do, and then punishing me for doing what my faction head tells me to do.
Developer
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It is, but it's an evil act assigned as a faction mission. The karmic burden rests with the faction leader; the PC is blameless.
And there *is* verbiage telling the GM that a PC killing the prisoner is an evil act. That, in and of itself, is the kind of thing a GM should not be approaching lightly.
That may not always be the case going forward. Can we look at this scenario and this particular mission (as well as several other moral quandaries in recent scenarios) as experiments?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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With respect, Mark: there are faction missions that are a lot worse than this one. Any ethos is going to consider it a worse transgression to set fire to a crowded market, killing who-knows-how-many innocents, than to act as the Scarni's instrument of revenge against a competing mob family.
Put another way, if you wanted to make a test case for reinstating the rule that evil acts are evil, even if your faction leader tells you to do them (and I would approve of returning to that principle), this is the wrong one.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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First, I agree with Chris. There are far worse missions out there, in terms of what's good and what's evil.
Second, if you're going to do something like this, word the faction mission properly. As well, announce it to people; to the GMs, at the very least.
Last, Yiroep is correct: this is a pretty serious derail, considering what this thread is supposed to be used for. Can the discussion be moved to a different thread?
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I'm running this scenario on Thursday and I'm curious what tactics others have employed. The general feedback here seems to indicate that the fights are a bit of a walkover, so I've been thinking of ways to try to make them a little more challenging.
I'm going to have a line drawn on the floor in-line with the end of the main central pillar. Heriphis is going to tell the PCs to remain behind the line, only allowing the chaotic PCs he's marked out using his detect chaos ability to approach. His hounds will remain out of sight around the corners, so only the approaching PC will have a chance to see them.
If things go south Heriphis is going to agree to free the paracountess and lead the PC towards the door to his own room. As they approach Heriphis will pull his blade and attack, while simultaneously the hounds will spring out and take on the main party.
I'm hoping this situation will mitigate the common problem of the party taking up optimal positioning to deal with an enemy as soon as combat begins and at least present Heriphis as a credible threat.
What I'm planning to do is have the players make perception checks as soon as they pass through the portal. Irrespective of what they roll I'll tell them they spot the paracountess dangling in a cage in the adjoining room.
In truth the check will be to notice the edavagor in the next area. By having them roll ahead of time instead of as they enter the room it should hopefully come as more of a surprise when the thing drops from the ceiling on them like a xenomorph and cuts loose with it's breath weapons. With a climb of +37 and a Jump of +32 this seems a much more interesting way to make use of the creature than simply having it standing around waiting to be attacked.
I'm going to have the players set their marching order and proceed into the room. As soon as the first PC to pass the check enters they will spot the creature and it will drop. With any luck, the party will be split and unable to coordinate their attacks effectively.
One thing that could make this fight far more challenging it either tier is remembering that both a bearded devil and an Erinyes can summon in more devils to fight alongside them. These summoned creatures can in turn summon in others (and so on), but I wouldn't have them do so in a PFS game.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
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I'd rule it that the Bearded Devil or Erinyes can use their summon abilities (they are in their home plane after all), but then of course their summons cannot then in turn summon again.
Also do keep in mind that the third fight is the optional encounter, which does explain why it's more of a pushover fight (CR = APL or APL+1). It might be challenging if they blew all their resources on the big baddie.
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With respect, Mark: there are faction missions that are a lot worse than this one. Any ethos is going to consider it a worse transgression to set fire to a crowded market, killing who-knows-how-many innocents, than to act as the Scarni's instrument of revenge against a competing mob family.
Put another way, if you wanted to make a test case for reinstating the rule that evil acts are evil, even if your faction leader tells you to do them (and I would approve of returning to that principle), this is the wrong one.
Sorry to add to the derail, but I think the reason there's a difference here is because there are multiple ways to complete this mission, and killing is simply one of those ways, so they flag it as evil since it isn't necessary to do the mission, unlike that other one you mention (which I vastly disliked as a mission) where you are literally told to commit the act of terrorism as the mission. So the evil is for choosing an evil way of doing the mission (just like if you're doing one of those Andoran murder missions, it doesn't count as evil, but if you go about it by feeding the NPC's soul to a daemon, which you weren't asked to do, then it does; another example would be if you have a mission to do a certain activity without being noticed, and you fireball a room full of innocents first to make sure you aren't noticed, since you don't have Sleight of Hand). I don't want to put words in Mark or Mike's mouths, but that's the sense I got.
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@Sulaco,
For the second fight remember the Edvagor is 75 feet away from the portal and readied to attack anyone who comes through the portal. Also the portal isn't transparent so the party can't see what's on the other side. When I run it as soon as the portal opens the Edvagor moves forward 55 feet and waits to see if who comes through is on the authorized list, if not he opens up with both barrels in the surprise round (18D6 breath weapon damage to start) on the whole party and THEN initiative gets called for.
At this point a 5' step lets it full attack whoever it chooses and then the fight starts. At this point panic should set in and half the party will either jump back through the portal or frantically start trying to heal. This is where your fun begins.
I'd hold off on starting it on the wall, let the climb speed be a surprise once they think they have it cornered, and it climbs up the wall and starts breathing on them from there.
This also works well for the low tier an should turn that cakewalk into a running fight for their lives.
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...No, it's exactly as the module has stated. The Edvagor is under strict orders to@Sulaco,
For the second fight remember the Edvagor is 75 feet away from the portal and readied to attack anyone who comes through the portal. Also the portal isn't transparent so the party can't see what's on the other side. When I run it as soon as the portal opens the Edvagor moves forward 55 feet and waits to see if who comes through is on the authorized list, if not he opens up with both barrels in the surprise round (18D6 breath weapon damage to start) on the whole party and THEN initiative gets called for.Except this is a bunch of ... creative interpretation... chaining from incorrectly running initiative. It can absolutely start up as soon as the first person goes through the portal, but initiative should be rolled before the surprise round starts.
Particularly because some or all of the PCs may be able to take actions in the surprise round no matter whether they were aware of the opponent or not.
Doing anything in a surprise round before init is rolled is failing to run the main rules correctly, let alone run-as-written.
And we haven't even gotten to the problem that you are not permitted to ready an action outside of initiative.
The beast was instructed not to let any creature enter the kennels save under Losarkur’s command, and it snarls and attacks the moment it sees the PCs.
Now since the entrance is a giant sheet of flame any guard (or guard animal) who doesn't take notice and prepare for intruders as it's ordered to is a bad guard.
As for the PC's doing anything well they can do whatever they want but until they step through the portal they cannot in anyway perceive or affect the other side of the doorway.As for the initiative check it may be called for before the surprise round goes off but is irrelevant since the Edvagor is waiting to attack what comes through the portal. It knows something is coming through but the PC's don't know something is waiting on the other side. It will auto the check to be aware of the PC's and there is no way for them to be aware of it so it will always get the surprise round.
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Developer
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The portal isn't necessarily a wall of flame from the Hell side of the doorway. The edavagor should be at the far end of the room, close to the gibbets. With darkvision limited to 60 ft. and no low-light vision, it's going to need a round or two to use scent and move closer to investigate. It's entirely possible for the PCs to enter the kennels and escape notice for a round or more, and once they have attracted the guardian's attention, they can always go back through the portal to get healing and other resources they'll need to beat it after they've seen what they're up against. The additional devil only tries to stop them if they attempt to take Zarta through the portal. There's no limit to the number of times they can activate the portal, and thus they can retreat through it and re-equip/regroup as necessary.
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It seems as if I misread the entry slightly. Area C1 specifies the it is dimly lit. I had assumed that also applied to C2 as, in plan view, it reads as one large room. It seems this is not in fact the case. This means the only real light in the room will be what the PCs bring with them, which does change things a bit. There's nothing to indicate the edavagor is blind, which means it should spot the PC's via their light source the moment they enter C1.
Also, while it may be both loyal and aggressive it is not stupid. Its 13 INT makes it likely smarter than a few of the Pathfinders, and while they are likely to rush headlong into combat there's no reason it cannot opt instead for being cautious and clever in dealing with the PCs. It's smart enough to employ tactics more complex than "get 'em!" and will make a more satisfying encounter by doing so.
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I recently heard a session of Fortress of the Nail (tier 8-9) garnered two PC death, one of them permanent. Apparently the GM had the Edavagor use its breath weapon, but allowing only one save. According to my understanding it has two breath weapons, thus both allow a save, and both are independently affected by Resist Fire and such.
So, be mindful of that.
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The portal isn't necessarily a wall of flame from the Hell side of the doorway. The edavagor should be at the far end of the room, close to the gibbets. With darkvision limited to 60 ft. and no low-light vision, it's going to need a round or two to use scent and move closer to investigate. It's entirely possible for the PCs to enter the kennels and escape notice for a round or more, and once they have attracted the guardian's attention, they can always go back through the portal to get healing and other resources they'll need to beat it after they've seen what they're up against. The additional devil only tries to stop them if they attempt to take Zarta through the portal. There's no limit to the number of times they can activate the portal, and thus they can retreat through it and re-equip/regroup as necessary.
Huhn, that's interesting. Since the scenario never actually states what the light level was only that there is light in the kennels I'd set it to the default Normal level.
What is the actual light level for this area?Also if it's only flaming on the creation side what does it look like from the destination point and can you see through it? My reasoning is if you can see through it back to the other location then the light level from B2 or B1 (wherever the party activates it) should spill through then and anyone on the destination side is going to be lit up like a spotlight if the room is in darkness.
Not arguing just trying to figure out how to describe the scene for my players since I'm not quite understanding how it looks from the description.
edit: Oh and one more thing, it has the Edvagor has the Devil sub-type which usually comes with the See in Darkness special ability. I know it isn't spelled out in the stat block but the devil type is which usually includes everything under that type. Since this is a third party creation I just needed to ask was it an oversight or does this creature specifically not get everything the devil type gives?
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I ran this last night and killed a PC, permanently. They played low and it still was bad. I included the last fight, because we had the time, and it blindsided them. Oh, and the Sczarni PC hated his faction mission. ;)
Overall, this scenario has the same feel as "The Disappeared", with the only exception being that the fights are more beefier. Be prepared and be adaptable.
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The portal isn't necessarily a wall of flame from the Hell side of the doorway. The edavagor should be at the far end of the room, close to the gibbets. With darkvision limited to 60 ft. and no low-light vision, it's going to need a round or two to use scent and move closer to investigate. It's entirely possible for the PCs to enter the kennels and escape notice for a round or more, and once they have attracted the guardian's attention, they can always go back through the portal to get healing and other resources they'll need to beat it after they've seen what they're up against. The additional devil only tries to stop them if they attempt to take Zarta through the portal. There's no limit to the number of times they can activate the portal, and thus they can retreat through it and re-equip/regroup as necessary.
When I ran this Sunday, the party's barbarian moved up to attack the edavagor and missed, then was on the recieving end of 5 attacks which killed him instantly. The rest of the party fought for a round or two, but then decided to retreat, and all managed to escape back through the portal. At this point, they wanted to go back to the Lictor and tell him what was going on, and try to get him to send reinforcements into the portal to help them. Realistically, that seems like a reasonable thing, you'd think that the Lictor would want to know about a portal to hell underneath his citadel and try to help, but I knew that that was outside of the scope of the adventure. Since time was running short on the con session anyways, I had the Lictor say that he'd have to launch an internal investigation, which would be a long, complicated, bureaucratic nightmare that would effectively mean it would be months before the Paracountess would ever be released. I hope this was a decent way to handle it, but I really felt like there should be something in the adventure for what happens if they ask for help.
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I'm not so sure that's correct. Under the creature's statistics, it does sayI recently heard a session of Fortress of the Nail (tier 8-9) garnered two PC death, one of them permanent. Apparently the GM had the Edavagor use its breath weapon, but allowing only one save. According to my understanding it has two breath weapons, thus both allow a save, and both are independently affected by Resist Fire and such.
So, be mindful of that.
breath weapon (2 30-ft. cones, 8d6 fire damage plus spoor worm, Reflex DC 24 half, usable every 1d4 rounds)but it also says
Breath Weapon (Su) When an edavagor uses its breath weapon, both of its heads breathe a 30-foot-long cone of flame. These cones can be directed to affect separate squares (dealing 8d6 points of fire damage to those within), or can cover the same area (wholly or partially; dealing 16d6 points of fire damage to those within). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Based on my reading of the second section there, I think it effectively becomes one breath weapon with double the damage.
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the scenario never actually states what the light level was only that there is light in the kennels I'd set it to the default Normal level. What is the actual light level for this area?
According to the boxed text for area C1, "Spaced throughout the cavern are pillars of jagged stone that plunge into small, round pools of molten, steaming lava, which provide the faint light* that pervades this nightmarish haunt."
Sounds like dim light to me, but YMMVAlso if it's only flaming on the creation side what does it look like from the destination point and can you see through it?
Unless a portal specifically states you can see through it, I treat it similarly to the stargate. Physically it is extremely thin, almost non-existent, but there is an infinite distance between the sides from a meta-physical sense that crosses planespace and prevents observation of the other side (both ways) using normal perceptive methods (visual, audible, scent, etc).
...the Edvagor has the Devil sub-type which usually comes with the See in Darkness special ability. I know it isn't spelled out in the stat block but the devil type is which usually includes everything under that type. Since this is a third party creation I just needed to ask was it an oversight or does this creature specifically not get everything the devil type gives?
Since it is technically a 3PP creation, I just rule that it does not have the "normal" devil stuff. It is already a superior creature, IMO, so adding see in darkness might be overkill, or at least justify another bump in CR.
BTW, not sure if everyone noticed it or not, but one of the Edavagor's defensive abilities is amorphous, meaning that it is immune to precision damage like a sneak attack and critical hits. I'm not exactly sure why this creature's form justifies such a bonus as it appears to be nothing more than a hell hound/cerberi on steroids, but I'm sure your tank/rogue PC's are going to be unpleasantly surprise.
I'm not exactly sure about the overlapping breath weapon. It is described in such a way that you could conclude the two are considered one, but IMO, that creates unnecessary issues to adjudicate what constitutes overlap (partial, entire, etc). Unless the author/developers/KQ publishing comment, I plan to treat them as two separate breath weapons, that may or may not overlap depending on circumstances. So if you have resist fire, congratulations, it'll apply twice. I suppose that could hose someone with evasion if they make one, miss one (save), but you could make an argument either way.
For ease of tracking, do you just roll 1d4 and apply that to the recharge for both heads, or do you have them potentially recharge at different rates? If at different rates, is there a way to combine a breath weapon with melee attacks? Would it get a breath weapon plus a single bite with the other head? Does each claw follow its corresponding head? How does tail work? Would it only be used in the case of a full-round of melee attacks? I like options as a GM, but obviously, keeping the breath weapons in tandem, makes adjudication much easier.
EDIT--also, with regards to the surprise/readied action...technically, by game mechanics, you cannot ready an action outside of combat. Keep in mind two important factors. (1) the guardian has to confirm that the person/s coming through the portal are not authorized by Losakur to be there or could even be the archduke himself. That will create a moment of pause for the guardian. (2) It is possible that the PCs, when they enter, could have extremely fast reflexes and excellent perception (read: high initiative) which could afford them the opportunity to act before the guardian can pop off its breath weapons. From what I can see, this creature does not suffer from an extreme imbalance of economy of actions and should fare quite well even if it loses out to a PC or two in the surprise round.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Anyone know the proper value/cost of the Flaming Longsword on the chronicle sheet? I realize that I could figure it out with a few minutes of work, but I am sure one of you has already caught the error and fixed it.
Thanks in advance!
Took me a minute, but I spotted it...
8,315 is correct.
There's an extra zero in between the 3 and the 1, but the comma is in the right place, so it kinda *looks* right. Weirdly.
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Based on my reading of the second section there, I think it effectively becomes one breath weapon with double the damage.
Breath Weapon (Su) When an edavagor uses its breath weapon, both of its heads breathe a 30-foot-long cone of flame. These cones can be directed to affect separate squares (dealing 8d6 points of fire damage to those within), or can cover the same area (wholly or partially; dealing 16d6 points of fire damage to those within). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Good catch. I've never seen a creature with two breath weapons at once so this gets a little tricky. Still, I'd prefer two saving throws just to give the PCs a fighting chance and not blast them away with an overpowering monster.
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Because there are only 2 encounter locations, I decided to be a little ambitious and made simple models of both of them to spice up the game tonight. I also realized it gives an interesting perspective on the Hell kennels area:
This is the enemy view, assuming the hound is standing just forward of the central cage and looking towards the entrance. It is fairly unobstructed and any light source brought in will shine like a beacon.
This is the PC view upon exiting the portal. The description of C1 says it is dimly lit but there is no such description for C2. One could extrapolate that this dim lighting extends to both areas, or it could just as easily be assumed that the light drops off and C2 is in darkness. If the former, then the PCs should have a chance to notice the hound, otherwise it should be well hidden in the dark beyond.
As to the breath weapon: I would think that even though it counts as just one attack since each of the breath weapons can target independently then anyone caught in an overlap between them would make a separate save versus each.
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Another question occurred to me.
In area C1 it reads "Any PC who steps in one of the molten pools, however, takes 2d6 points of fire damage each round until she vacates that square" yet it does not indicate which squares are affected since the molten pools do not occupy squares but rather the junction points of four squares.
My interpretation is that any character that ends their move in one of the spaces with a molten pool at its corner will suffer 2d6 damage. There are, however, two locations where a large-sized creature (a PC under the effects of an enlarge person spell, for example) could occupy two such squares. Would she then suffer 4d6 damage?
Alternately, since the entry reads "Any PC who steps in one of the molten pools", it could be argued that simply moving through such a space would cause such damage. Since it is impossible to move from area C1 to C2 without passing through at least two such spaces, barring a form of momentum that does not involve walking on the floor, that means every PC should suffer a minimum of 4d6 damage before leaving area C1.
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I've just recalled that immediate prior to the penultimate encounter in the kennels the PCs acquire a vast cache of oil of invisibility, which means odds are the entire party will be invisible for the encounter with the guard hound.
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Running this tonight
Minor Typo:
The compass rose on pg 6 indicates that North is to the right of the page. However, the descriptions for the various areas are written as if North is the top of the page.
Questions:
1) Th high tier Cerberi have the Cerebrus' Jaws curse which is basically a dimensional anchor. If the Potions of Remove Curse fail A) are those PCs prevented from using the Gate (as it is dimensional travel)? B) Can the PCs pay for a remove curse from onsite Hellknight Signifiers onsite? (This is my back up plan just in case...)
2) If the PCs' combat against Zarta's guardian fares poorly and they are forced to seek help from the Hellknights, how would it be adjudicated? I was thinking that if the PCs throw in the towel (due to casualties or the like), offscreen the Hellknights storm the gate and free Zarta and the PCs lose out on the gold for the guardian and gate keeper encounters. Secondly, they would possibly lose out on Zarta's boon as it was the Hellknights who successfully braved the infernal prison. Thoughts?
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1) They cannot use the portal. They also can't put their friend in a bag of holding or portable hole to bypass the problem either. (I had this come up this weekend at Con of the North). The cavalier's mount and the monk were both unable to continue the scenario. They drank all the potions, and subsequently failed all 4 caster level checks (remove curse requires a caster level check vs. the DC of the save against the curse--in this case DC 18 with a CL 5 potion--they needed a 13 or better).
So they asked if they could go get help from the hellknights and I ruled that they were supposed to be getting Zarta and leaving immediately. So the hellknights would not help them (they weren't legally bound to do so, and since the Pathfinders revealed a hole in their legal system, they weren't real amenable to be nice to them). They then asked if there was a temple to Asmodeus at the citadel. I figured there probably was, and ruled that they could either stealth (two of a 6 person party roaming around without their liaison was a no-no) or bluff to be unobtrusive, they could try to find the temple.
They made their checks, found the temple, and paid for remove curse to be cast on them. The Monk paid 150gp for a single casting, and made his CL check. The cavalier paid 810gp for his boar mount, and it wasn't until the 5th attempt by a 7th level caster, that I rolled a nat 20 to remove the curse.
So sure, be creative, but don't just give it to them. Make them work for it.
2) The hellknights wouldn't help them in my opinion. But they can move back and forth through the portal as long as they have the key. I would also say that if they flee, then Zarta is doomed. The hellknights would rather this embarrassing indiscretion just went away quietly than having Zarta still around to remind them of it.
I believe that the intent of this scenario, is if the PC's fail the mission (and they do if they fail to save Zarta), then Zarta essentially dies.
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I ran this today as a “slot zero” for the Genghis Con GMs and thought I would provide a rundown on the game for you all. This will be a long post, so I spoilered a lot of the details to save space.
** spoiler omitted **
They played high tier, of course.
First, I changed the fluff around a little bit. ** spoiler omitted **
I went on to state that a team was sent into the Chelaxian embassy in Absalom to snoop around, and the following evidence brought to light.
** spoiler omitted **...
Having run this senario at Owlcon this weekend I must give Drogon much praise for his suggestions. I personalized it a bit and used these suggestions to get the roleplaying started and my table really got into it. Even the low charisma/low Int characters started looking for ways to help out (and laughing uproariously when they fail miserably).
The only suggestion I have is make sure the players rolling to assist have to actually be descriptive in how they are assisting, once they get started the encounter will practically run itself.
This scenario actually played far better then I expected it to and look forward to running it again next weekend.
P.S. Having run it at the low tier with two 8th level characters in the party I can't say how well the combats work but will say don't forget the planar traits, they can make a significant difference depending on the party makeup.
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Developer
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Questions:
1) Th high tier Cerberi have the Cerebrus' Jaws curse which is basically a dimensional anchor. If the Potions of Remove Curse fail A) are those PCs prevented from using the Gate (as it is dimensional travel)? B) Can the PCs pay for a remove curse from onsite Hellknight Signifiers onsite? (This is my back up plan just in case...)
That seems perfectly reasonable to me. If they're paying using Prestige Points, however, note that they're not in a settlement of 5,000 or more, so it would cost extra. This is probably the easiest way to handle it and keep the scenario moving.
2) If the PCs' combat against Zarta's guardian fares poorly and they are forced to seek help from the Hellknights, how would it be adjudicated? I was thinking that if the PCs throw in the towel (due to casualties or the like), offscreen the Hellknights storm the gate and free Zarta and the PCs lose out on the gold for the guardian and gate keeper encounters. Secondly, they would possibly lose out on Zarta's boon as it was the Hellknights who successfully braved the infernal prison. Thoughts?
The PCs can always retreat through the portal and regroup, healing, raising, re-equiping, etc. This is a great opportunity for them to spend Prestige Points to get their faction to provide what they need despite being in an isolated castle. There's no reason they can't make Knowledge checks and the like and then gear up and head back in for a second try. I wouldn't have the Hellknights get involved, however, as that's changing the outcome of the scenario (and thus campaign continuity) without the PCs even being involved. If they fail to rescue the paracountess and don't reattempt, then denote such on their Chronicle sheets (mission failure, lack of her boon, etc.).
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Just ran 2 tables of this at the LGS, one for each tier. I ran the 8-9.
L9 Barbarian / Ranger
L9 Ranger
L8 Fighter
L9 Bard
L8 Oracle (Lore)
L9 Wizard
I did a brief recap of Storming the Diamond Gate (Aglorn Desimire), Race For the Rune Carved Key (Elixia), Blackros Matrimony (Tancred Desimire) and The Disappeared (Tancred's set up of Zarta) just to give context for everything previous to FotN.
Basically, I had the Oracle who could Take 10 autopass all the diplomacy checks before getting Auto-Aid Another from 2 other characters.
So, I just told the table that I will assume that the Oracle will put the final spin on things when interacting (i.e. using her bonus) but that everyone can and should talk. Since everything was an autopass, I just focused on conversational points and let folks chime in during discussions to address points the NPCs brought up and kept moving things along.
There was a brief detour to the library and then onto...
I used the prison line suggestion and drew it onto the map (i.e. the hellknight turnkey calling out "please stay within the lines"). Just like a real prison, the lines kept them away from the prison doors and kept the PCs 10' away from the desk. Only the PC with proof was allowed to approach.
Combat was ugly, quick and done in 2 rounds as both cerberi got acid pitted and the hellknight got dogpiled (even with the 10' breathing space).
Markus was left imprisoned by the Sczarni and Sascha was given all the invisibility potions. The Hellknight was locked up in the cell with the skeleton.
The PCs prebuffed and entered hell. One PC had a light spell up, illuminating the group (and letting the edavagor know they had arrived AND that they were not authorized people). They took a round or two to maneuver and jump to the space between lava pits, making no attempt at subterfuge.
In all honesty, it was the perfect ambush. No one percepted the Edavagor.
Suprise round: moves up 50' and the PCs are caught between lava pools.
1st round: second in the order, it dual breathes fire on the whole party for 31 and 38 points. Wizard drops unconscious. Everyone but the barbarian is roughed up. The edavagor is in reach of 4 party members. Everyone is on edge. Then...
...the Oracle 5' steps back and casts Sound Burst. She beats the SR. The edavagor rolls a 2 on its fort save and is stunned for one round.
Then everyone goes to full attack town and destroys it.
If the Oracle didn't get that sound burst off, I believe I would have killed one PC and possible knocked another one unconscious during the full round attack action of the edavagor in the second round before finally succumbing.
The PCs lava jump back over, see the wall and move forward to investigate as they are worried about the missing portal. Erinyes drops Unholy Blight on the party and drops a (resisted) fear before the she got stomped by a wave of disbelieving, angry PCs.
A fun scenario to run...if not a little worrisome if the ambush works and you potentially TPK the party.
Edit: hah, just saw Mark's post after I wrote this.