MC Templar |
... or spending a move action to Perceive things within it would both count as 'interacting'.
-James
As i understand the illusion rules, simply looking at something isn't "interacting" regardless how hard you look. Is there a citation in the books about taking move actions to Perceive?
Illeist |
Also, silent image can only cover 10 cubic feet per caster level. A five foot square contains 125 cubic feet. A 20 foot spread, like obscuring mist, covers 64 5 foot cubes, or 8000 cubic feet.
So the OP is partially correct: if you can boost your caster level for silent image to 800, then it can make an inferior obscuring mist.
RumpinRufus |
james maissen wrote:As i understand the illusion rules, simply looking at something isn't "interacting" regardless how hard you look. Is there a citation in the books about taking move actions to Perceive?... or spending a move action to Perceive things within it would both count as 'interacting'.
-James
There's two ways to disbelieve - interact with it, or study it closely.
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
Studying it carefully is a move action, as detailed in the Perception skill:
Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Artanthos |
MC Templar wrote:james maissen wrote:As i understand the illusion rules, simply looking at something isn't "interacting" regardless how hard you look. Is there a citation in the books about taking move actions to Perceive?... or spending a move action to Perceive things within it would both count as 'interacting'.
-James
There's two ways to disbelieve - interact with it, or study it closely.
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief) wrote:Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.Studying it carefully is a move action, as detailed in the Perception skill:
Perception wrote:Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Unless the opponents have a good reason to suspect an illusion, they would have no reason to stop and study the fog carefully.
Unless, of course, the GM is metagaming.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Weirdo |
james maissen wrote:As i understand the illusion rules, simply looking at something isn't "interacting" regardless how hard you look. Is there a citation in the books about taking move actions to Perceive?... or spending a move action to Perceive things within it would both count as 'interacting'.
-James
As far as I know the closest thing is this guide to 3E illusions which is a helpful precedent since illusions haven't changed much in PF but it's not exactly PF RAW.
Artanthos |
Also, silent image can only cover 10 cubic feet per caster level. A five foot square contains 125 cubic feet. A 20 foot spread, like obscuring mist, covers 64 5 foot cubes, or 8000 cubic feet.
I would most likely not bother with trying to use silent image to replicate a fog.
Usage of certain higher level illusions is possible in an emergency, still raising the concerns of interaction.
Shadow Evocation for Blacklight comes to mind.
Lab_Rat |
Silent image is both better and worse than obscuring mist
Better:
1) You can see right through it
2) You can warn your party and give them a bonus to see through it. Because of this silent image can be used in a more offensive manner and causes less complaint from your party members
3) Longer range
4) Longer duration through concentration
Worse:
1) Gives a save to your enemies. This can be when (a) the enemy spends a move action to study the "mist" (b) the enemy enters the "mist" and is physically interacting with it.
2) Smaller. Gets better as your level increases but is still smaller even at CL 20 (Illeist - It's an extra 10ft cube/lvl NOT 10 cubic feet/lvl)
3) Requires concentration to maintain
james maissen |
james maissen wrote:Two words: True Seeing.By the time True Seeing comes into play, I would hope the party has other resources available.
Obscuring mist never goes out of style.
It is always wonderful for dealing with mindless enemies triggered by sight. In 3.5 there were the spell turret traps and this was always their Achilles' heel.
Having ways to block line of sight and obfuscates without save or divination solutions is very nice. Tiny hut is also a nice spell for that reason.
-James
Dennis Baker RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor |
Moving within illusory mist is definitely interacting with it. Any time you touch an illusion you are interacting with it, whether it is "solid" or not. Mist eddies as you walk through it and it's wet, you can feel it.
Even if it were perfect, the biggest downside to illusory mist is easy, you have to concentrate on it which means you can't *do* anything other than move.
twells |
Artanthos wrote:james maissen wrote:Two words: True Seeing.By the time True Seeing comes into play, I would hope the party has other resources available.Obscuring mist never goes out of style.
It is always wonderful for dealing with mindless enemies triggered by sight. In 3.5 there were the spell turret traps and this was always their Achilles' heel.
Having ways to block line of sight and obfuscates without save or divination solutions is very nice. Tiny hut is also a nice spell for that reason.
-James
Mindless enemies are confounded just as easily by Silent Image and would have no reason to "interact" with it.
Not saying it is better the Obscuring Mist, but definitely an underused spell.
I also find Obscuring Mist hampers my own party just as significantly as the enemy, and slows down combat a lot. So unless we are getting pwned by archers, I do not normally use it unless the situation is dire.
Relixander |
Seems that anything obscuring mist can do silent image can do bigger with more options. Sure you have to concentrate and will can disbelieve but how can mist really be interacted with to be disbelieved other than a fireball not burning it away?
Define "interact". If you are in a fog you are interacting with it. You are touching it, breathing it, moving it, all of which are interactions.
It would not be wet, it would not "change" the air like non-illusionary fog would (temperature, humidity, density, etc.). IMHO anyone within the illusionary fog should receive an automatic chance to disbelieve, just by being there.Grayfeather |
Two words: True Seeing.
As to your question.. someone entering into the mist, or spending a move action to Perceive things within it would both count as 'interacting'.
-James
Congrats, you used a 6th lvl spell to overcome a 1st. Even obscuring mist can be burned away with a 3rd lvl fireball.
Studying it carefully is a move action, as detailed in the Perception skill:
There would be need to prove a reason to suspect its an illusion. An illusion that replicates a spell that does not damage is hard to suspect i would think. Are you going to go poke a Prismatic Wall to see if its an illusion? Going to go see if that pool of acid that appeared in front of you in real? Me thinks not.
So it sounds like is Silent image is not a replacement for Obscuring mist but can be used for some similar effects in the right situations.
james maissen |
james maissen wrote:Two words: True Seeing.
As to your question.. someone entering into the mist, or spending a move action to Perceive things within it would both count as 'interacting'.
-James
Congrats, you used a 6th lvl spell to overcome a 1st. Even obscuring mist can be burned away with a 3rd lvl fireball.
Actually I was thinking of many creatures that have a constant true seeing effect on them.
Congrats that 1st level spell (obscuring mist) hampered that high level demon/devil...
The original question was why bother (ever) with obscuring mist because they thought silent image was strictly superior. It's not. It has it's uses, but so does obscuring mist.
As to the other poster- yes you have to be very careful with positioning and obscuring mist or you will hamper your party as much or more than the enemy. I recall severe anecdotes to that effect!
-James
Grayfeather |
Congrats that 1st level spell (obscuring mist) hampered that high level demon/devil...
Good point, I stand corrected.
Another benefit of Illusory Mist that is actually kind of fun.
Obscuring mist allows you to see the 5 foot square around you. Well your illusory mist doesn't have to. You could even have a little fun and put fake allies in the mist for your enemies to swing at.
Very nice, didnt think about the fact an illusion can be a one way concealment for yourself.
Can silent image be used to combined multiple visual effects like the mist and more effects together such as the mist and the people in it.
Serum |
Mindless enemies are typically immune to illusions.
Mindless enemies are immune to mind-effecting spells. Silent Image isn't mind-effecting.
To reiterate what was said above, the largest drawbacks to illusory mist compared to standard mist are that:
1) opponents get a will save when they enter the mist
2) it requires concentration to maintain
It's definitely useful in some situations, however: a ranged vs ranged fight, for example.
Lab_Rat |
To reiterate what was said above, the largest drawbacks to illusory mist compared to standard mist are that:
1) opponents get a will save when they enter the mist
2) it requires concentration to maintainIt's definitely useful in some situations, however: a ranged vs ranged fight, for example.
1) Nothing you can do about that save for interaction. This is just something you have to deal with. Bump up your DC as much as you can. You can use a rod of persistent spell to make them have to roll twice.
2) I would like to point out that Gnomes can minimize this through the Effortless Trickery Feat. This lets you do concentration checks as a swift action in addition to the standard action. Thus you can concentrate on the silent image as a swift action and then do something else with your standard (another spell, concentrate on a second illusion, etc).
Dennis Baker RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor |
Charender |
Serum wrote:
To reiterate what was said above, the largest drawbacks to illusory mist compared to standard mist are that:
1) opponents get a will save when they enter the mist
2) it requires concentration to maintainIt's definitely useful in some situations, however: a ranged vs ranged fight, for example.
1) Nothing you can do about that save for interaction. This is just something you have to deal with. Bump up your DC as much as you can. You can use a rod of persistent spell to make them have to roll twice.
2) I would like to point out that Gnomes can minimize this through the Effortless Trickery Feat. This lets you do concentration checks as a swift action in addition to the standard action. Thus you can concentrate on the silent image as a swift action and then do something else with your standard (another spell, concentrate on a second illusion, etc).
It seems to me that you would want to pick an illusion that is harder to inadvertantly interact with. An illusion of a wall of stone for example. Most enemies are not going to go running into that.
Fromper |
Lab_Rat wrote:It seems to me that you would want to pick an illusion that is harder to inadvertantly interact with. An illusion of a wall of stone for example. Most enemies are not going to go running into that.Serum wrote:
To reiterate what was said above, the largest drawbacks to illusory mist compared to standard mist are that:
1) opponents get a will save when they enter the mist
2) it requires concentration to maintainIt's definitely useful in some situations, however: a ranged vs ranged fight, for example.
1) Nothing you can do about that save for interaction. This is just something you have to deal with. Bump up your DC as much as you can. You can use a rod of persistent spell to make them have to roll twice.
2) I would like to point out that Gnomes can minimize this through the Effortless Trickery Feat. This lets you do concentration checks as a swift action in addition to the standard action. Thus you can concentrate on the silent image as a swift action and then do something else with your standard (another spell, concentrate on a second illusion, etc).
Unless you're fighting Wile E. Coyote.
Emmit Svenson |
It seems to me that you would want to pick an illusion that is harder to inadvertantly interact with. An illusion of a wall of stone for example. Most enemies are not going to go running into that.
Walls and fog both have their plusses and minuses. Your allies can dive in a fog bank, or shoot arrows out of it, without raising any suspicion about the possibly illusory qualities of said fog. Illusionary wall, not so much.
Emmit Svenson |
...the biggest downside to illusory mist is easy, you have to concentrate on it which means you can't *do* anything other than move.
Which is a huge reason to take Illusion School if you’re a wizard: spells like Silent Image persist a short while after you stop concentrating. Improved invisibility for (your level) rounds a day as swift actions is pretty sweet too.
Ravingdork |
Moving within illusory mist is definitely interacting with it. Any time you touch an illusion you are interacting with it, whether it is "solid" or not. Mist eddies as you walk through it and it's wet, you can feel it.
This.
Dennis Baker RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor |
What gets me is how ridiculously effective obscuring mist is at shutting down most ranged attack builds. People complain about things like windwall, but few players who have archers have a way of getting through simple mist. I know a fair number of builds that can ignore concealment... but they can't pinpoint the target.