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What I find amusing about the Paladin breaking into the warehouse anecdote, is that the problem with it seems to be that he did it in the middle of the day with a crowd looking and that they got caught by the watch.
Would he have been fine if they did it at night and didn't get caught? Is that more lawful?
This is an interesting part of this discussion as it’s more than just a list of what is and isn’t evil or breaking a paladin’s code, so I’ll weigh in with my opinion.
Nothing is black and white. There are all shades of gray when dealing with morality. You might say that a Paladin is black and white. And as far as adhering to their code, I’d agree.
But let’s look at a circumstance.
However, the activities going on inside the warehouse are illegal in Riddleport, as declared by Cromartie.
We can’t use USA Bill of Rights against a Paladin. There are no search and seizure laws. You don’t need a warrant.
In this situation, the Paladin is working within the Laws, and Goodness, but breaking into the warehouse to stop an evil pirate from kidnapping innocent scholars.
In this case, the Paladin isn’t committing breaking and entering, but rather is engaging in Search and Seizure with merit.
So let’s not look black and white only surface deep. Let’s look at the entire situation and gauge it based on a medieval world just turning Renaissance and how they would view such an action, not how a 21st century British Citizen, Australian, American, or German (or any other country) might view it.
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I don’t get why a Paladin has to go to all the trouble of getting local permission or being an appointed law man in that town, etc.
Why can’t he just say,
“There’s laws being broken in that warehouse, in the name of evil! Therefore, I must break in and stop the evil law-breakers. I’ll deal with jurisdiction with the locals once I’ve stopped the evil! “
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We can’t use USA Bill of Rights against a Paladin. There are no search and seizure laws. You don’t need a warrant.
The sherrif don't need a warrant. There are no search and seizure laws for him. (or rather the law is probably he can search what he wants and seize what he wants)
The paladin is not the sheriff. That's the problem. The search law is "no tresspassin" and the seizure law is "no stealin." There is no laws of the nations" source book, but no theft no trespassing is probably pretty universal.
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“There’s laws being broken in that warehouse, in the name of evil! Therefore, I must break in and stop the evil law-breakers. I’ll deal with jurisdiction with the locals once I’ve stopped the evil! “
Thats known as stooping to their level. The entire POINT of a paladin is to be above that sort of thing.
SO unless he hears the damsel scream "help! help!" he has no business barging into someone elses warehouse just because someone handed him a note that said something was going on in there.
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We can’t use USA Bill of Rights against a Paladin. There are no search and seizure laws. You don’t need a warrant.The sherrif don't need a warrant. There are no search and seizure laws for him. (or rather the law is probably he can search what he wants and seize what he wants)
The paladin is not the sheriff. That's the problem. The search law is "no tresspassin" and the seizure law is "no stealin." There is no laws of the nations" source book, but no theft no trespassing is probably pretty universal.
But if Laws are being broken in the warehouse in the name of evil, then the Paladin is obligated to stop said evil lawbreaking. Local laws of jurisdiction (trespassing) do not apply. And of course the Paladin isn't planning on stealing anything (just recovering stolen goods).
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But if Laws are being broken in the warehouse in the name of evil, then the Paladin is obligated to stop said evil lawbreaking
Two wrongs don't make a right and two illegal acts don't make a legal one. If the paladin has sufficient evidence to act on his own, then he has sufficient evidence to go to the proper authorities and either have them deal with it OR pick up proper authorization to deal with it.
Taking the law into your own hands is a very chaotic act. IIRC there wasn't anything obvious going on at the warehouse.
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“There’s laws being broken in that warehouse, in the name of evil! Therefore, I must break in and stop the evil law-breakers. I’ll deal with jurisdiction with the locals once I’ve stopped the evil! “Thats known as stooping to their level. The entire POINT of a paladin is to be above that sort of thing.
SO unless he hears the damsel scream "help! help!" he has no business barging into someone elses warehouse just because someone handed him a note that said something was going on in there.
I disagree that it is stooping to their level.
Wanton destruction, killing, and stealing just to get the badguy (like Neil McCaffrey on White Collar--minus the killing and destruction of course) is of course going to conflict with the Paladin's code.
But breaking into a ware house to stop evil-doing is not stooping to their level.
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But if Laws are being broken in the warehouse in the name of evil, then the Paladin is obligated to stop said evil lawbreakingTwo wrongs don't make a right and two illegal acts don't make a legal one. If the paladin has sufficient evidence to act on his own, then he has sufficient evidence to go to the proper authorities and either have them deal with it OR pick up proper authorization to deal with it.
Taking the law into your own hands is a very chaotic act. IIRC there wasn't anything obvious going on at the warehouse.
We are playing a roleplaying game, set in a medieval to Renaissance fantasy world.
We aren’t playing a game of Bill of, or Miranda rights.
If you want to play a game of Bill of, or Miranda rights, play a different game.
Please, get your reality out of my fantasy.
Paladins are not breaking their code, or really the law, by breaking into a warehouse to stop evil-doing.
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We are playing a roleplaying game, set in a medieval to Renaissance fantasy world
And oddly enough they had laws back then against some random person breaking into your place and beating you up. This was not some 18th century invention. Hell, even if you were playing in the hyborean age the cities would have something like hamurabi's code preventing this sort of thing.
Stop telling me I don't belong in this game because i treat it like a living, breathing world and not a level in an MMO.
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We are playing a roleplaying game, set in a medieval to Renaissance fantasy worldAnd oddly enough they had laws back then against some random person breaking into your place and beating you up. This was not some 18th century invention. Hell, even if you were playing in the hyborean age the cities would have something like hamurabi's code preventing this sort of thing.
Stop telling me I don't belong in this game because i treat it like a living, breathing world and not a level in an MMO.
Just because my version of this living breathing world is different from yours, doesn’t mean I treat it like an MMO.
Sure, they had laws against breaking into someone’s house and beating them up.
But they wouldn’t put a Paladin of a respected order in jail for breaking into a warehouse where devil-worship was occurring and the Paladin broke in to stop it.
Let’s be realistic about what we are talking about here.
We aren’t talking about black and white (well you are). This isn’t about only, “he broke into a warehouse.” End of story.
Why did he break in? What was going on inside that prompted him to break in? Did he stop evil by bashing down the door of the warehouse?
Basically, in most civilized countries in Golarion, a Paladin is going to be given the benefit of the doubt as far as whether they were acting within their rights as a Paladin. Local law enforcement (unless its in Taldor and it’s a Paladin of Sarenrae) is not going to arrest a Paladin for doing what’s right (in this case breaking down the door to stop evil).
And the Paladin is not breaking their code by doing what’s right either.
Now, on the other hand, if they are simply breaking into the warehouse to circumvent local law enforcement and help a smuggler (First Steps Part I anyone?), then yeah, a Paladin is going to have a hard time completing that mission within their code.
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As a student of history, I need to point out that the statement "And oddly enough they had laws back then against some random person breaking into your place and beating you up" henges on the "...some randome person..." part of the statement. Often there were Laws permitting selected person the right to brake "into your place and beat you up". Depending on who was doing it, and who they were doing it to.
Selected person is different than random person. The phrasing was deliberate.
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As a student of history, I need to point out that the statement "And oddly enough they had laws back then against some random person breaking into your place and beating you up" henges on the "...some randome person..." part of the statement. Often there were Laws permitting selected person the right to brake "into your place and beat you up". Depending on who was doing it, and who they were doing it to.Selected person is different than random person. The phrasing was deliberate.
And realistically, in most civilized countries and towns (and even in many rural areas) a Paladin would be considered a selected individual, simply because they are a Paladin.
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A paladin showing up and breaking in to stop evildoers without a warrant from the local town guard is like the feds doing a sting in Mayberry without getting permission from Andy Griffith. They have the legal authority to go in without local law enforcement's consent (or knowledge) if they have a good reason. Paladins have the legal authority to go in without local law enforcement's consent/knowledge if they have a good reason.
Paladins don't have magical powers because they studied (like a wizard) or have it in their blood (like a sorcerer) or because they practiced (like a bard). Paladins have magical powers as a manifestation of the fact that the universe itself has granted them authority to root out evil on their own initiative, when others (including the sheriff) can't or won't or would take too long.
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A paladin showing up and breaking in to stop evildoers without a warrant from the local town guard is like the feds doing a sting in Mayberry without getting permission from Andy Griffith. They have the legal authority to go in without local law enforcement's consent (or knowledge) if they have a good reason. Paladins have the legal authority to go in without local law enforcement's consent/knowledge if they have a good reason.
Paladins don't have magical powers because they studied (like a wizard) or have it in their blood (like a sorcerer) or because they practiced (like a bard). Paladins have magical powers as a manifestation of the fact that the universe itself has granted them authority to root out evil on their own initiative, when others (including the sheriff) can't or won't or would take too long.
while I agree with this completely... I would like to add that it is very dependant on the location and who they are a paladin of.
A Paladin of the Dawnflower in Taldor - going to jail.
A Paladin of the Dawnflower in Qaderia (spelling?), not even noticed. - heck, the harbor patrol will show up and apoligize for being late to the party.
A Paladin (Hellknight) in Cheliax? - crowds of citizens will gather to assist.
A Paladin of Abadar in most any city around the Inner Sea? well... maybe not in Rahadum (spelling), there he get's run out of the country.
A Paladin in Nidal? ah... he'd brake in and try not to get caught.The LAW changes from place to place, and the only way you can judge it for a Paladin is by where he get's his authority (God and Country and maybe his Order).
Paladins of the Shining Crusade would not ask the Whispering Tyrant if they can brake into one of his warehouses...To suggest that they would even think about it is ... not thinking it thru.
Agreed with both of you.
Obviously circumstances create the situation. Sarenrae is illegal in Taldor, while some of the God's a paladin could worship are probably illegal in Cheliax. All Paladins are illegal in Rahadoum. So does that mean if a Paladin enters Rahadoum they have to atone because they broke the law of Rahadoum? Good Luck with the Heresy of Man series.
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What I get annoyed with is when people equate lawful with the law, when in fact it means following some sort of code. For example, monks are lawful, but that doesn't mean they follow national laws. It means they live a regimented, orderly life, and may have taken some vows they need to follow. I.e., the follow the laws of their religion, or monastery, etc.
It is the case that a paladin's code says they must respect legitimate authorities, and therefore cannot do things such as free slaves and whatnot in countries where slavery is legal (i.e., most of them), but that is a paladin take on being lawful. It isn't a lawful thing per se.
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Furious Kender I was going to say the same thing, but then I decided to read the Alignment section one more time...
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
That said there is a difference between Respecting authority and following the law to the letter under all circumstances.
The Paladin talked about being chastised by the GM for knocking down a door to get to the "Bad Guy" can still be respective to Authority even if he is breaking an entering to get to that bad guy.
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On a funny note I GM'd a table where the CN rouge coupe de grad the NPC the Neutral Good Cleric was supposed to speak with to complete her faction mission. The Cleric secretly deemed the Rouge as Evil since he did this without provocation and really had no reason for this other than he was.... whatever. So the cleric decided to never heal the rouge and even used her selective channel to exclude him, once even healing an enemy. The player who was the rouge died in the scenario and did not have enough gold or prestige to raise himself. He said this was equivelent to PVP and thus illegal, and I asked him if he had knowledge religeon, he said no to which I said, then you have no idea what channeling is and thus too bad. I don't think he is coming back.
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Furious Kender I was going to say the same thing, but then I decided to read the Alignment section one more time...
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.That said there is a difference between Respecting authority and following the law to the letter under all circumstances.
The Paladin talked about being chastised by the GM for knocking down a door to get to the "Bad Guy" can still be respective to Authority even if he is breaking an entering to get to that bad guy.
What is breaking and entering and a legitimate search is frankly unclear, as we aren't given any context in the particular scenario and we aren't given much information about various regional laws about this issue.
Slavery is I think a better example, as we are given a lot of information about local laws regrading it.
How do you respect legitimate authority, such as say the government of Absalom, if you don't respect their laws? For example, paladins in all likelihood cannot free slaves in Absalom. Slavery is even specified as a common punishment for petty crime in Absalom. So yes, in a sense, pathfinders are contributing to the slave trade when they turn petty criminals in to authorities in Absalom.
I could see this as a pretty major struggle for paladins of some deities. I also say this because I've seen paladins do this sort of thing in PFS, and in Absalom in particular.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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On a funny note I GM'd a table where the CN rouge coupe de grad the NPC the Neutral Good Cleric was supposed to speak with to complete her faction mission. The Cleric secretly deemed the Rouge as Evil since he did this without provocation and really had no reason for this other than he was.... whatever. So the cleric decided to never heal the rouge and even used her selective channel to exclude him, once even healing an enemy. The player who was the rouge died in the scenario and did not have enough gold or prestige to raise himself. He said this was equivelent to PVP and thus illegal, and I asked him if he had knowledge religeon, he said no to which I said, then you have no idea what channeling is and thus too bad. I don't think he is coming back.
Frankly, I don't find this to be very funny. If the rogue didn't act in an evil manner, then the cleric was completely out of line. Unless the cleric said, "Don't kill that person", the Rogue was just downing another enemy. Even so, intentionally healing an enemy is *way* out of line. I also feel that this was honestly handled rather poorly if you flippantly told him that he had no idea what channeling was.
Either way, a story that ends in a player not coming back to PFS is not a funny one, unless the player did something really nasty.
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A paladin showing up and breaking in to stop evildoers without a warrant from the local town guard is like the feds doing a sting in Mayberry without getting permission from Andy Griffith. They have the legal authority to go in without local law enforcement's consent (or knowledge) if they have a good reason.
This is flat out wrong.
A paladin does not have legal authority everywhere they go. He works for his god, not the nation, city, or town where he is. He does what is right. Not only does that not automatically make him a part of the government, it quite often puts him at odds with the government.
Your analogy should read that its like a Mountie trying to make an arrest in Florida. The local law may like and respect the mountiee as a professional, upright citizen. They will probably take his word over the meth dealers. But if he's kicking in doors and shooting people he's going to be in the clink with them.
In at least one scenario there are clerics of abadar acting as an extra legal police force on their own initiative: the local constables don't like it.
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You once again are using real life modern jurisdictional anecdote for a fantasy world based on medieval moving to renaissance society.
If you don’t think that most cities, towns and countries will respect the authority of a paladin, because they are the champion of goodness, then I believe you don’t understand what a paladin is.
They aren’t just a thug that happens to worship a god and happens to be good and lawful.
They are a recognized force, Golarion-wide, for goodness, lawfulness, righteousness, et. al. As such, they would be given some leeway in their activity in most places.
You are assuming that breaking into a warehouse where evil is going on, immediately means they are slaughtering the people within, wantonly.
As long as they adhere to their paladin code throughout such activity, then the local authorities will likely not have issue with it.
And frankly, the Paladin code doesn’t mean they follow the laws everywhere they are rigidly. It means they respect legitimate authority. Respecting authority and taking the law into your own hands is not mutually exclusive.
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Your analogy should read that its like a Mountie trying to make an arrest in Florida.
The Mountie got his authority from one government and has physically left that government's territory and is attempting to operate within the territory of a government that is on equal footing with his own.
The Paladin got his authority from the universe itself, has not left said universe, and is attempting to operate within the territory of a government that is not on equal footing with The Entire Cosmos.
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On a funny note I GM'd a table where the CN rouge coupe de grad the NPC the Neutral Good Cleric was supposed to speak with to complete her faction mission. The Cleric secretly deemed the Rouge as Evil since he did this without provocation and really had no reason for this other than he was.... whatever. So the cleric decided to never heal the rouge and even used her selective channel to exclude him, once even healing an enemy. The player who was the rouge died in the scenario and did not have enough gold or prestige to raise himself. He said this was equivelent to PVP and thus illegal, and I asked him if he had knowledge religeon, he said no to which I said, then you have no idea what channeling is and thus too bad. I don't think he is coming back.Frankly, I don't find this to be very funny. If the rogue didn't act in an evil manner, then the cleric was completely out of line. Unless the cleric said, "Don't kill that person", the Rogue was just downing another enemy. Even so, intentionally healing an enemy is *way* out of line. I also feel that this was honestly handled rather poorly if you flippantly told him that he had no idea what channeling was.
Either way, a story that ends in a player not coming back to PFS is not a funny one, unless the player did something really nasty.
The rouge was doing allot of underhanded stuff, and as the GM I even warned him. The Coupe De Grad was done when the NPC was clearly unconcious and other oppenents were up and threatening, his actions actually allowed the main fighter to go down due to his full round action. I wasn't flippant to the Rouge, but he was very upset and almost belligerent to me and some other players. While I am not happy about potentially losing a PFS player, I consider how many would leave if he continues his ways. bad players can make others leave. Hopefully he learns how to play with others and changes his RP style, if not I can only do so much.
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Your analogy should read that its like a Mountie trying to make an arrest in Florida.The Mountie got his authority from one government and has physically left that government's territory and is attempting to operate within the territory of a government that is on equal footing with his own.
The Paladin got his authority from the universe itself, has not left said universe, and is attempting to operate within the territory of a government that is not on equal footing with The Entire Cosmos.
In other words, the Paladin's authority comes not from the various governments, but from the fact he's a Paladin. He will try to respect the authorities having jurisdiction, but otherwise won't let that dissuade him from doing what's right, which is thwarting evil.
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Or is killing an immobile prisoner ALWAYS an act of EVIL?Nope. Sometimes its a faction mission.Ironically, usually for the good aligned Andoran faction.
And again, what's with all the paladin hate? I've seen plenty of paladins in PFS play, including my own, and never seen any of them violate the "Don't be a jerk" rule.
Doug, you need to hand write "Lawful Good doesn't have to be Lawful Stupid" 100 times on the blackboard, or turn in your 5th star.
Ironically, I have had some DMs in the past chastise one of my Paladins for essentially not being a jerk. A paladin's code says they have to be righteous, not self-righteous.
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You once again are using real life modern jurisdictional anecdote for a fantasy world based on medieval moving to renaissance society.
This is a strawman you've already been corrected on.
If you don’t think that most cities, towns and countries will respect the authority of a paladin, because they are the champion of goodness, then I believe you don’t understand what a paladin is.
I don't think you understand what a government is, especially in golarion.
A government is a consolidation of power into the hands of a subset of the population. Allowing someone from outside of that subset to gain power for themselves completely defeats the point of it.
Absolom has a legal slave trade that it makes a lot of money on.
Cheliax is built on the backs of halfling slaves.
Riddleport (where the event in question took place) is a hive of scum and villany that would see a paladin as a sanctimonious twit trying to ruin everyone's fun.
In the realm of the mammoth lords they'd be a threat to the power of the local chief trying to impose funny southern ways on people.
I can't print what rahadoum would think of them
The river kingdoms are riddleport over a larger area
Galt would consider them the agents of a foreign monarchy here to end their freedom and or recreational head chopping.
Qu'dira has the same problem as absolom.
Hermea has a giant "No tresspassing" sign tacked up front by a large fire breathing lizard.
The LAST thing any of the governments of these places want is some self righteous do gooder doing what they think is right rather than what the government has said is legal: because the governments are not lawful good they are going to have serious issues with the paladin. Its not that i don't understand what a paldin is, its just that I don't think that what they are would be very welcome in a large number of places on golarion.
Now correct me if i'm wrong but that warehouse in riddleport
They are a recognized force, Golarion-wide, for goodness, lawfulness, righteousness, et. al. As such, they would be given some leeway in their activity in most places.
If they kick in the door and when the law shows up they're holding the head of a demon in one hand and a princess saying "thank you for saving me" in the other yes. If they kick in the door and kill people because they needed information out of someone there.. not so much. PFS missions tend heavily towards the latter.
You are assuming that breaking into a warehouse where evil is going on, immediately means they are slaughtering the people within, wantonly.
Concluding based off of experience. Not assuming.
As long as they adhere to their paladin code throughout such activity, then the local authorities will likely not have issue with it.
Your "I AM THE LAW!" approach makes that code very hard to break. They act no differently than the chaotic good folks.
And frankly, the Paladin code doesn’t mean they follow the laws everywhere they are rigidly. It means they respect legitimate authority. Respecting authority and taking the law into your own hands is not mutually exclusive.
Yes it is, because if there's one thing ANY authority, in any time and place, believes in their authority.
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Your analogy should read that its like a Mountie trying to make an arrest in Florida.The Mountie got his authority from one government and has physically left that government's territory and is attempting to operate within the territory of a government that is on equal footing with his own.
The Paladin got his authority from the universe itself, has not left said universe, and is attempting to operate within the territory of a government that is not on equal footing with The Entire Cosmos.
The paladin got his power from a god, not the universe. If you don't worship that same god, he has no say in your affairs. A worshiper of Calden Cailean reaaaly doesn't care what iomede's stance on drunk in public is.
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Nosig,
Now imagine a templar trying that in southern France when the cathars held the place. Or Cairo. Or China. Different reception.
Golarion is polytheistic. No good god is better than any another. The universe is not lawful good. If someone isn't of your religion, they don't care what authority you have in your church: you have none over them.
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You once again are using real life modern jurisdictional anecdote for a fantasy world based on medieval moving to renaissance society.This is a strawman you've already been corrected on.
If you don’t think that most cities, towns and countries will respect the authority of a paladin, because they are the champion of goodness, then I believe you don’t understand what a paladin is.I don't think you understand what a government is, especially in golarion.
A government is a consolidation of power into the hands of a subset of the population. Allowing someone from outside of that subset to gain power for themselves completely defeats the point of it.
Absolom has a legal slave trade that it makes a lot of money on.
Cheliax is built on the backs of halfling slaves.
Riddleport (where the event in question took place) is a hive of scum and villany that would see a paladin as a sanctimonious twit trying to ruin everyone's fun.
In the realm of the mammoth lords they'd be a threat to the power of the local chief trying to impose funny southern ways on people.
I can't print what rahadoum would think of them
The river kingdoms are riddleport over a larger area
Galt would consider them the agents of a foreign monarchy here to end their freedom and or recreational head chopping.
Qu'dira has the same problem as absolom.
Hermea has a giant "No tresspassing" sign tacked up front by a large fire breathing lizard.The LAST thing any of the governments of these places want is some self righteous do gooder doing what they think is right rather than what the government has said is legal: because the governments are not lawful good they are going to have serious issues with the paladin. Its not that i don't understand what a paldin is, its just that I don't think that what they are would be very welcome in a large number of places on golarion.
Now correct me if i'm wrong but that warehouse in riddleport ** spoiler omitted **...
How is it a strawman?! You keep making real world analogies that don't work.
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Golarion is polytheistic. No good god is better than any another. The universe is not lawful good. If someone isn't of your religion, they don't care what authority you have in your church: you have none over them.
On the other hand, those folks can't revoke the paladin's powers. The deity who can revoke his powers isn't going to do so because the paladin violated some local mortal statute in the course of upholding the things his powers are contingent upon him upholding.
The "reception" toward the paladin's actions is immaterial. I bet demons object to getting a smite to the face, but it's irrelevant to the paladin's status as a paladin.
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BNW: The disconnect is this.
You are equating each country and town’s laws to what the Paladin has to adhere to based on his code.
This isn’t true.
A paladin only has to respect legitimate authority and follow laws that are right.
If an authority or law says that he can’t smash down a warehouse door to stop evil, then that authority or law isn’t right and doesn’t apply to his code.
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How is it a strawman?! You keep making real world analogies that don't work.
You're accusing me of requiring real life MODERN analogies. I keep telling you that authorities not liking interference from private citizens that think they know better is 1) timeless 2) specifically in at least one mod and 3) inevitable given that most of golarion is NOT lawful good. Its a rather dark and gritty world where the people in power get rich off of doing bad things to people and want to keep it that way: hence the need for heroes.