Flying creatures and combat maneuvers (drag / repostion / trip)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Shadow Lodge

Which combat maneuvers do you think should work on flying creatures?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Most everything but trip, which specifically says it doesn't work on flying creatures. Keep in mind, some maneuvers are going to have more extreme results than others. For example, a Grappled creature can't move, which is going to vastly increase the chances of it plummeting out of the sky.

Shadow Lodge

So if you have drag/repostion and you can reach the creature you can possibly drag/repostion them to the ground, would this make them prone if you succeded?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Why would it make them prone?

Shadow Lodge

Jiggy wrote:
Why would it make them prone?

Thats why I asked. Should drag/repostition just allow a flying creature to land on its feet if its dragged/repositioned out of the sky?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Jacob Saltband wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Why would it make them prone?
Thats why I asked. Should drag/repostition just allow a flying creature to land on its feet if its dragged/repositioned out of the sky?

Pretty much.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Whoops, I thought this thread was in the Rules forum for some reason. My bad.

So to make sure I'm on the same page with you, this is the latest installment of Jacob Saltband's "The Combat Maneuver Rules Should Be Different", right?

Anthology coming this fall to bookstores everywhere!

Shadow Lodge

No this is question about Flying creature and what combat maneuvers can be used against them, also how those combat maneuvers would work.

If your pulling something out of the sky, does it just daintily set down on ts feet (since I'm sure its fighting against you the whole time) or should there be some type of rool for it to land on its feet.

Yes I still disagree strongly with the updated trip rules but this has nothing to do to with that.

Some people have said that in higher levels most combat maneuvers become mostly useless, so I'm seeing if there are ways to keep useful longer. I think this is something that should be in the FAQ instead of leaving it to GM's, also PFS plays by RAW so would be nice to there to actually be rules for these things.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

The thing is, Drag and Reposition don't make someone prone or deal damage normally. Why would they be more powerful against flying creatures? They have basically the exact same usefulness against flying creatures as non-flying. If you wanted to drop a flying creature, use drag or reposition to bring them down to the ground and then grapple them so they can't fly away again.

Shadow Lodge

Jiggy wrote:

Whoops, I thought this thread was in the Rules forum for some reason. My bad.

So to make sure I'm on the same page with you, this is the latest installment of Jacob Saltband's "The Combat Maneuver Rules Should Be Different", right?

Anthology coming this fall to bookstores everywhere!

Why are you being a (insert fawl language here)? Just because my name is attached to thread does not make it any less then any other person posting here. If it does then this forum has some (insert fawl language here) rules governing it.

I'm asking a question not starting an argument. I heard that grapple is only useful combat maneuver after a certin, if that is so then maybe the other cimbat maneuvers should be looked at.


Is this two flying creatures, fighting each other. Somebody on a flying creature or a grounded creature fighting a flying creature?

Shadow Lodge

Hugo Rune wrote:
Is this two flying creatures, fighting each other. Somebody on a flying creature or a grounded creature fighting a flying creature?

Any combination.

Lets start with one on the ground and one in the air flying.

Shadow Lodge

Based on my understanding of the combat maneuver rules, they should have no special effect on flying creatures. As stated before, the maneuvers do not hamper flying unless it is natural flight and the creature is unable to move (grapple). I think it would be reasonable to force a flying creature who is knocked prone (maybe with overrun?) to make a fly check to avoid stalling.

In respect to drag and reposition specifically, I don't think there's any reason that they would force a creature to stop flying. They may maneuver a creature into the first square above the ground (0' high) but the creature could be flying inches above the ground. I see reposition as directing attacks and leaving openings such that the creature is forced to move, lest they be pummeled (i know the rules don't give you that option, but CMB/CMD is an abstraction). Drag is something on the order of grabbing someone by the shirt or arm and pulling them after you. Neither of these maneuvers directly affects a creature's ability to fly.

You could certainly house rule that any forced movement while flying puts enough strain on the flyer that they must make a fly check or suffer some penalty (penalty to hit for being unstable?, loss of altitude?, stalling and falling?). If you're looking for RAW, however, the system is abstracted out enough that only trip has specific rules for flyers and only a few others can have any effect (grapple, overrun?)

Shadow Lodge

Are there any rules for combat against a flying creature or betwwen flying creatures?


The raw is clear here, but unlike the trip case I think the rules are band, there are too few mundane tactics against fliying enemies, I would like to see the combat maneuvers expanded.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Combat against and between flying creatures is the same as normal creatures save the fly checks to hover, etc.

If a creature is flying and you want to prevent it from flying, your best bet is grapple. One you successfully grapple a creature, it moves adjacent to you and it can't move away without an escape artist check or reversing your grapple.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder, like it's predecessor 3.5, is not really designed to do 3D combat. The RAW do not address flying much beyond the fly skill and only a small set of monsters can fly. Dennis has it right on, that combat with flying creatures is the same as without.

It generally makes it simpler to not have a whole different rules set to deal with flying combat, as the mental geometry can be bad enough. One game I play in we have an evoker and a character that can fly. We got tired of doing the work to figure out what the fireball template looks like for someone 10' off the ground and one of the guys in the group made wire templates for the area of effect at 5, 10, 15 and 20 feet of vertical distance.

Shadow Lodge

The problem with not having set rules for these situations is that you can end up with different ruling from different GM's, I'm talking about PFS.


I was writing a response to this looking at whether the action is a push or a pull, but having reviewed the PRD and the Fly Skill I think the easy answer is to consider the creature as being 'Attacked While Flying'. Why -

Bull rush, drag and reposition are all variants of move a creature from it's current square in a given direction - it shouldn't matter whether that is 2D or 3D or which maneuver is used (I note reposition doesn't have the stability note, I think that is an oversight).

Although no damage is taken, it is easy to visualise a flying creature being buffeted or stalled as it is forcibly moved through the air and believe the 'Attacked While Flying' check and it's 10 foot drop outcome for a failed check is reasonable.

So -
1.The combat maneuver moves the creature in 3D just as it would in 2D.
2a. If the creature is still airborne it should take the Attacked While Flying DC10 check to avoid falling 10 feet as it recomposes itself to fly. If it fails and hits the ground it crashes and takes falling damage. If it doesn't hit the ground it carries on its normal flight from its new position.
2b. If the creature has hit the ground as a result of the combat maneuver it should make an Avoid Falling Damage DC10 check to see if it lands or crashes. If it crashes it is prone unless it avoids taking lethal damage from the fall

Shadow Lodge

Hugo Rune wrote:

I was writing a response to this looking at whether the action is a push or a pull, but having reviewed the PRD and the Fly Skill I think the easy answer is to consider the creature as being 'Attacked While Flying'. Why -

Bull rush, drag and reposition are all variants of move a creature from it's current square in a given direction - it shouldn't matter whether that is 2D or 3D or which maneuver is used (I note reposition doesn't have the stability note, I think that is an oversight).

Although no damage is taken, it is easy to visualise a flying creature being buffeted or stalled as it is forcibly moved through the air and believe the 'Attacked While Flying' check and it's 10 foot drop outcome for a failed check is reasonable.

So -
1.The combat maneuver moves the creature in 3D just as it would in 2D.
2a. If the creature is still airborne it should take the Attacked While Flying DC10 check to avoid falling 10 feet as it recomposes itself to fly. If it fails and hits the ground it crashes and takes falling damage. If it doesn't hit the ground it carries on its normal flight from its new position.
2b. If the creature has hit the ground as a result of the combat maneuver it should make an Avoid Falling Damage DC10 check to see if it lands or crashes. If it crashes it is prone unless it avoids taking lethal damage from the fall

Thanks for the post. This is what we need in a FAQ or something so that when you sit at a PFS table the rules are there.


the dc10 fly checks seem pretty easy to overcome. i guess i would ready an action to drag/reposition the flying creature as it dove towards me to midchest level with a 5ft sucessfull cmb check. if i go over 5 on my cmb to it's cmd it moves additional 5ft blocks. that places it on ground(not prone) or "flying" 1 inch above floor. grapple it and beat the crap out of it

my 2cp..... egg the flying beast on to get it to attack you with your readied action (manuever) waiting

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