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Recently I started a homebrew game with my closest friends and out of the blue the my friend, lets call him "D" decided to play an evil monk. He did this with full knowledge of the party configuration.
Which goes like this:
LG Half-Elf Ranger
LG Human Noble
CG Human Bard
CG Human Alchemist
LE Human Monk
I've tried to convince him to alter alignments slightly or make a more cohesive character but he politely refuses and says he knows what he is doing. He hides his alignment with magic (they are 4th level) but I think his luck will soon run out and get kabobed on the Rangers Arrow. What should I do, just let things play out?
Sorry for the rant.
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Ask the player what his intentions are and if his goal is to do anything that affects the other PCs (like stealing from them for example).
they can get along if they agree too they are lawful they will keep there word and being lawful evil he shouldent be doing evil stuff for fun or if he gets bored he would usualy have some reason for it. randomly killing people or attacking the party would be CE. if hes lawful he could be a character like dexter where he loves killing but has a strict set of rules he follows (only killing serial killers). if he agrees not to hurt the party then he shouldent unless attacked its the CG that may attack him because a LG would not attack someone unwilling to fight unless given a good reason but a cg could. there is also the LG and LE team up because something is wrong with the order of things in the world ect. ive bin in a game where a pali and antipali teamed up and where great and they played the part well.
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I've had players like this before, it can be disruptive if "D's" intention is to hijack the sessions. Maybe you could work with him to include the evil alignment into the greater storyline somehow, eventually the monk betrays the party, or was possessed by an evil outsider. Or just kill the PC if it gets too disruptive.
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His ultimate goal is to open a rift into Abbadon in order to cull the weak. His character is planning on taking levels in Inquisitor next level. I really think I'm just gonna make him into the BEG at the end of the campaign at this rate since he has a better evil plot than I do!
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Why can characters with lawful and chaotic alignments get along just fine but characters with good and evil alignments can't?
Why can characters with lawful and chaotic alignments get along just fine but characters with good and evil alignments can't?
See Order of the Stick
--There are cases where they get along fine despite some butting of heads.
It can be pretty fun to do... Unless it's just doing it just because you can.
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Leave 'im alone.
As long as he's not going "MUHAHAHAHA MY EVIL PLAN IS FINALLY COMPLETE!" and killing/stealing from party members, who gives a flying f#~@ what his alignment is?
Sincerely,
A Lawful Evil Monk
Why can characters with lawful and chaotic alignments get along just fine but characters with good and evil alignments can't?Lawful and chaotic are much more vague. You could create a lawful character who follows a strict code, but doesn't care what others do.
Creating a good character who doesn't care if others commit evil acts is much less common.
Them being vague concepts to us isn't a justification for allowing it IMO. Remember alignments in PF are more about absolutes - not a relative morality (my feelings on 'relative morality' is an entirely different topic). In the PF universe there is as much a war between lawful and chaotic as there is between good and evil. (see inevitables, see also demons vs devils).
That said I personally don't have a problem with both lawful and chaotic members being in a party - or good and evil. I just expect in either case that at some point there is going to be some in game party drama as a result.
I could envision a basically good character who has a friend that is evil - into things like stealing, lying, cheating his way to power - the good character has a desire to see his friend redeemed.
But the lawful character tolerating the chaotic acts of another or the good character tolerating the evil acts of another is reality should be more of an exception - and in all cases there should be a breaking point where enough is enough.
Leave 'im alone.
As long as he's not going "MUHAHAHAHA MY EVIL PLAN IS FINALLY COMPLETE!" and killing/stealing from party members, who gives a flying f&$! what his alignment is?
Sincerely,
A Lawful Evil Monk
lol pretty much. its almost always a good pc whos player goes he's evil?! I must kill him! which imo is evil if the evil character did nothing wrong. If he is playing Richard tho... He probibly wont last long...
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So how do they know he is LE? I dont see a paladin with detect evil. Would any of the members have a reason to detect them and if so how are they doing it because i dont recall a Detect Alignment spell on any of there list? The relevance of there alignment will only be questioned based on there actions if the party is perceptive enough to notice and if there is a paladin in the vicinity to notice them and even then the paladin will not attack an evil target with out justified reason since they are lawful.
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lol pretty much. its almost always a good pc whos player goes he's evil?! I must kill him! which imo is evil if the evil character did nothing wrong. If he is playing Richard tho... He probibly wont last long...Leave 'im alone.
As long as he's not going "MUHAHAHAHA MY EVIL PLAN IS FINALLY COMPLETE!" and killing/stealing from party members, who gives a flying f&$! what his alignment is?
Sincerely,
A Lawful Evil Monk
I want to make a character who's alignment is Richard. lol
I want to make a character who's alignment is Richard. lollol pretty much. its almost always a good pc whos player goes he's evil?! I must kill him! which imo is evil if the evil character did nothing wrong. If he is playing Richard tho... He probibly wont last long...Leave 'im alone.
As long as he's not going "MUHAHAHAHA MY EVIL PLAN IS FINALLY COMPLETE!" and killing/stealing from party members, who gives a flying f&$! what his alignment is?
Sincerely,
A Lawful Evil Monk
don't we all...
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Totally depends on the player.
I ran a LE "southern gentleman" Lizardfolk Unarmed Fighter.
His goals were indeed evil, but he was not aware.
Most evil characters have no idea they are evil.
He loved to garner respect and praise from allies, especially when displaying his physical prowess in combat.
He was loved by other PCs, even after he killed one(I can link story if one wants).
Most NPCs eventually saw him as one of the good guys, as did his allies.
He was strict with loot, making sure all was fair, and everything was used to it's best potential.
In the end, he was lovable, considerate, and quite evil.
LE is the easiest to deal with, and his evil is long-term, not immediate. I assume he's using the party to his own ends. They just don't know it, I would say let him be the party foil, I sometimes like to recruit a player to be a foil, this guy recruited himself.
Make the game memorable, and hopefully the other players won't be butt-hurt about it.
Are you the DM? Then you set the campaign rules. whether to roll or point buy, what the point buy will be, what optional rules to allow, what houserules to play by and of course, what alignments to allow. Simple say "Richard, this is my campaign and I want a heroic campaign, so no Evils. Thank you for understanding."
Why can characters with lawful and chaotic alignments get along just fine but characters with good and evil alignments can't?
This.
Just because Lawful/chaotic seem more vague doesn't mean that those two alignmewnts should mic better than good/evil.
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Why can characters with lawful and chaotic alignments get along just fine but characters with good and evil alignments can't?This.
Just because Lawful/chaotic seem more vague doesn't mean that those two alignmewnts should mic better than good/evil.
I get why this would seem to make sense.
Trouble is, the paladin doesn't just deal in theories, he has to deal with what actually happens.
E.G.: LG paladin, CG ranger and LE ranger in a party. The paladin may not like the fact that the CG guy approaches encounters in an unstructured way, but this does not compare to his difficulty with the LE guy eating babies, even if he eats them in size order!
Paladins don't fall for committing a single chaotic act! They may adventure with chaotic party members, and they don't have detect/smite chaos!
Paladins exist to oppose evil! They simply don't have the same level of antipathy for chaos.
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His ultimate goal is to open a rift into Abbadon in order to cull the weak.
While I think some evil characters can get along with good parties, in-setting this goal would put him on damn near everyone's kill/defeat list, neutral and most evil folks included. Putting one's self in the same basket as daemons, the most hated beings in the multiverse, should be making him about as many friends as being a Rovagug devotee.
When demons, devils, and angels are teaming up to stop your patrons, you've really stepped in it cosmically.
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Recently I started a homebrew game with my closest friends and out of the blue the my friend, lets call him "D" decided to play an evil monk. He did this with full knowledge of the party configuration.
Which goes like this:
LG Half-Elf Ranger
LG Human Noble
CG Human Bard
CG Human Alchemist
LE Human MonkI've tried to convince him to alter alignments slightly or make a more cohesive character but he politely refuses and says he knows what he is doing. He hides his alignment with magic (they are 4th level) but I think his luck will soon run out and get kabobed on the Rangers Arrow. What should I do, just let things play out?
Sorry for the rant.
This monk player needs to think before he acts.
Evil characters can still act like a "good" character.That is the beauty of evil.
You can stray from one end to the other.
Unlike good, which cannot do this.
His method may not be widely accepted or liked by his teammates.
However so long as does not hinder the group in any way, should be OK.
Eventually he may need to leave the group at some point in time because of his convictions.
Meh, no need to punish someone because they took an alignment you didn't like. A LE monk can certainly work with a party, maybe he is just a young Pai me, grumpy and a bit cruel.
johnlocke, lawful good can most certainly fight chaotic good. CG barbs resisting the faiths and cosmopolitanism of LG colonists. Rurals opposing taxation and obedience to king and country (that isn't truly theirs).
Recently I started a homebrew game with my closest friends and out of the blue the my friend, lets call him "D" decided to play an evil monk. He did this with full knowledge of the party configuration.
Which goes like this:
LG Half-Elf Ranger
LG Human Noble
CG Human Bard
CG Human Alchemist
LE Human MonkI've tried to convince him to alter alignments slightly or make a more cohesive character but he politely refuses and says he knows what he is doing. He hides his alignment with magic (they are 4th level) but I think his luck will soon run out and get kabobed on the Rangers Arrow. What should I do, just let things play out?
Sorry for the rant.This monk player needs to think before he acts.
Evil characters can still act like a "good" character.
That is the beauty of evil.
You can stray from one end to the other.
Unlike good, which cannot do this.His method may not be widely accepted or liked by his teammates.
However so long as does not hinder the group in any way, should be OK.Eventually he may need to leave the group at some point in time because of his convictions.
Yeah, an evil noble, general or leader, that puts on a show, knows that perceptions are important, but will pull out all the stops to win.
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I played in a very long running campaign with a majority of good players and one lawful evil player.
Our goals aligned, and he was lawful, so it worked ok. We all knew he was evil, but he was useful and he was always the lesser evil.
I fully expected him to turn on us one day, and become a BBEG for the quest. He and the GM had discussed it, and if things went certain ways, we were told, he would take over the character.
It takes a really good player and a really good GM.
Yep, evil merc adventurers can work.
Is it so wrong to think of yourself? lol
Evil monk just wants self, and eventually world mastery.
Another few archetypes that can work, the evil rogue, knight or swashbuckler type. They are bound by their rules (LE works), not interested in killing and robbing everyone, but very proud, quite dangerous and savvy enough to socially get by.
One game I set up a long rivalry between an npc blackguard Henri (which adventured with and helped the party kill monsters and national enemies) and a Calistrian chaotic neutral cleric. What was weird was that in trying to control and outwit the blackguard, the Calistrian actually moved quite a bit away from CN and almost became a LG type figure. There was a duel (Cleric lost due to disqualification), there were attempts to legally control the blackguard (it started a fight). This guy didn't get Calistrians very well (the player's "alignment" was certainly Lawful, lol).
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But if your entire party is good or trending that direction, an LE PC is just wrong
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I'm really looking forward to try a LE "honourable" character soon. Probably a cavalier or the like, play it mostly straight to the chivalric code, but very dirty and dodgy once in a while (poisoned boot daggers).
In 3.5 a dishonourable knight just lost some challenges. :D
But if your entire party is good or trending that direction, an LE PC is just wrongY
Yeah, some think it is wrong to force everyone to play very similar alignments.
I've run into some prohibitive dms, that wanted to remove choice and difference between party members. Literally saying "you are all friends" and stay friends.
Friends? Some of my chars are just there for the loot and back-up.
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It's all about how it's played.
I have been known to be a player of some of the best loved evil PCs.
I suppose it was my goal to show new groups, and DMs, that evil PCs can be done, without game disruption.
In fact, no problem player has created problems with an evil PC, in any game I have been in.
They have always been running good, or neutral PCs.
If the DM, or player associates evil PCs, with jerk PCs, then they have it wrong.
Evil can be polite, charismatic, and loved by many.
In fact, there are many historical figures, that could be called evil, that were seen as heroes by many at the time.
Example: Adolf Hitler.
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Heck, back in 3.5, I played a Abyssal Skulker Fiend of Possession.
Whether it was possessing the wagon to move us along, an ally's weapon/armor to empower it, or an ally to empower their stats, I was always helping someone out.
Everyone wanted me inside them, or their equipment.
The PC was so incredibly willing to appease, and though many were a bit creeped out, and knew I was incontrovertibly evil, I was usually key in the destruction of other evil powers.
Once it was learned by some that my PC was trying to corrupt the others, they let my PC inside them less.
Very fun game.
Another evil char that can work, is a troll that hunts other trolls. Doesn't harm small weak humans, because they aren't a challenge. Is only interested in big game, but doesn't have a very nice and pleasant view of the world, simply isn't good.
Can work for a wild man or a ranger char, been out in the wilds so long that good and evil don't matter. Only the hunt matters.
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Hell, even without getting into the actual monster races, my (human) Monk is evil because he wants to exemplify the "best" qualities of both Irori and Achaekek.
None of that interferes with the party, and it's even been a help on more than one occasion (no qualms about torturing a prisoner by drawing his Acid Elemental Fist slowly across the captured then-unknown Pathfinder Society hired assassin's face).
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Achaekek, Asmodeus, Lissala, and Zon-Kuthon provide a ton of good-party friendly possibilities for evil characters.
Conan RPG doesn't have alignments, but the Stygian occultist I played in one campaign would have fallen into that spectrum. Dude was definitely lawful evil. He got on with the group because he was professional and he had standards and lines he would not cross.
Nihilistic "@#$% the world" types though...not so much with the party-friendliness. Above-mentioned Stygian would probably try to arrange for some accidents to happen to such characters if they proved true to their nature.
I've tried to convince him to alter alignments slightly or make a more cohesive character but he politely refuses and says he knows what he is doing. He hides his alignment with magic (they are 4th level) but I think his luck will soon run out and get kabobed on the Rangers Arrow. What should I do, just let things play out?
Sorry for the rant.
Apparently, this all worked itself out, but for the next time it comes up, two points need stressing:
#1- As the GM you absolutely have the responsibility to outright veto character concepts you feel will be detrimental to the game you are running. In this case, you should have politely informed him that his character concept wasn't going to work, rather than politely asking. Games get derailed very easily when GMs aren't willing to put their feet down when things like this come up.
#2- You should really discourage your players from painting their characters this broadly with the alignment brush.
It's entirely possible to have good and evil characters in the same party, for certain values of evil. Puppy-strangling demon-summoning stab-people-just-to-watch-them-bleed-out cartoon-villain evil is never appropriate unless you're specifically running some sort of goofy all-villain campaign.
However, that's not the only sort of characters covered by the evil end of the alignment spectrum. There's also just your garden variety selfish jerk. Before hitting the "Some lawful evil people..." paragraph, describing the super villain extreme, the official write-up on lawful evil characters pretty much just describes your typical murder-hobo PC. Someone who potentially fights for the right cause, never does anything illegal, and considers himself to be a good person, but does so out of totally selfish reasons. i.e. "Pay me" or "I want to be totally worshipped as a hero when we get back to town." That sort of LE character fits in just fine with basically any party, with the worst argument likely to break out is going to be over something like torturing the last surviving goblin for information, or pushing for a reward from someone everyone else is just trying to help out of general principle.
If you have someone who wants to be evil for purely mechanical reasons (benefits of worshiping a particular god, wanting channel negative energy, qualifying for some class or ability at all), reminding them that they can be jerk-evil and not cartoon-evil lets them do so without ruining party unity.
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Can anyone tell me how this is a problem. Heck Raistlin Majere the greatest wizard character since Gandolf was evil and I mean completely irredeemably evil and yet he was not only loved by his party, he was also loved by the fans. Sometimes it's better to see a fresh outlook, in a character.
The big difference that leaps to mind is that the subject of the thread's initial goals were "@#$% the world". He wanted to open a rift between the world and a plane full of daemons that want nothing less than the death of all that lives and to devour every soul that exists.
There's quite a distance between someone like that and party-friendly villains like Magneto(when written by people who aren't Grant Morrison(I love some of Morrison's work to death, but the man cannot write Magneto to save his life)).
Why can characters with lawful and chaotic alignments get along just fine but characters with good and evil alignments can't?
You have to ask that question? A LG and CG character may quibble about the means from time to time, but both serve the cause of good ultimately. LG and LE may be both lawful but that is where the similarity ends. Their goals are at extreme ends. One serves good, the other evil. They cannot coexist for long. Can we say PVP will be lit eventually and it will be Monk on a spit?
