Too much cheese for the money?
60,000 gold pieces.
Gets you eventually a +5 bonus to both attack and damage, and DR 10/- .
Way too much cheese. It should "reset" every now and again.
It strikes me as more fun if you have to reset it. Like powering up before a fight. Also could be an intimidation factor of there's some sort of visual effect.
Nice, i like that.
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Unfortunately it will not work as Deadly Juggernaut has a duration of only 1/min level, and a spell needs to have a duration of 10 min/level to work in a Ring of Continuation.
Does the ring of continuation (Ultimate Equipment, page 168) allow you to cast time stop with a duration of 24 hours?This item has had some unintended consequences and needs a fix. Change the second sentence of the description to read as follows: "Whenever the wearer of the ring casts a spell with a range of personal and a duration of 10 minutes per level or greater, that spell remains in effect for 24 hours or until the wearer casts another spell with a range of personal (whichever comes first)."
LOL
So, in the history of the forum, has there ever been a thread about making a magical item with a continuous effect in it that wasn't absolutely ridiculous and obviously overpowered?
Do people really not realize this entry is supposed to be for maintenance junk like Endure Elements, not True Strike, Mage Armor, Shield, Greater Invisibility, Divine Power, Deadly Juggernaut, Haste, Blessing of Fervor (cast all your spells forever Extended!), or whatever else.
No custom item you could possibly create is RAW--not one--because the entire section requires GM fiat.
If you can convince your GM that an item like this is ok, then I think you must have gotten yourself a Ring of Continuous Charm Person.
Too much cheese for the money?
60,000 gold pieces.
Gets you eventually a +5 bonus to both attack and damage, and DR 10/- .
Anytime a spell provides multiple effects you should be pricing them out separately to compare pricing. Basically at +5 to hit and damage the starting price should be somewhere around a +5 enhancement bonus to a weapon, then start adding in the other effects.
Where does it say this ?
If you check the magic item creation section, it suggests that you look at similar item pricing before you look at the item crafting formulas. If you are getting a +5 bonus to attack and damage, it shouldn't cost less than a +5 weapon. If its a bonus type that is unusual, it should cost more. Dr/- is huge, so that would cost a butt load on its own.
Although what you say has merit, It doesn't dissuade me from thinking it follows the guidelines from applying the spell. Similar item is weapon to weapon, ring to ring.
However, I did miss a footnote at the bottom. For a spell effect that lasts 1 minute per level, multiply the base by 2... There for the total cost of the ring would not be 60,000 gold pieces, it would be 120,000 gold pieces. Much closer to what it would cost to purchase a Holy Avenger.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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This is where the sanity check kicks in and why the magic item creation rules are pretty clearly offered up as guidelines to *start* pricing.
The spell is clearly balanced based on the assumption that the bonus is reset every X/minutes so the item should reflect that limitation. Easiest reasonable equivalent would be a ring where you can cast deadly juggernaut on command. I could also see it simply resetting the bonus damage after 5 minutes on inactivity.
Where does it say this ?
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
Not sure how much more clear it can get. An attack roll bonus is different from a damage bonus which is different from a DR ability. An enhancement bonus to a weapon is similar to a bonus to attacks and damage rolls...
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
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Not all items adhere to these formulas (the ones you are attempting to use for the ring in the OP). First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.
RAW says take the abilities gained from the item, find similar items that grant those abilities to find the price for that ability.
Start with the cost of the enhancement bonus to attack and damage, add the cost of an item that grants # DR/- (and an additional 50% of it) then total the two prices. You now have a real base line price to work with. Adjust as needed from there (add and additional 50% of that total as you have a ring that takes up a slot and is granting two different abilities). You'll notice the price is significantly higher than the one you are coming up with by ignoring the item creation rules.
Well I would disagree Dennis. I would think it would be more appropriate as an amulet or ring with a big gem on it.
Or crimson bands?
Where does it say this ?Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.Not sure how much more clear it can get. An attack roll bonus is different from a damage bonus which is different from a DR ability. An enhancement bonus to a weapon is similar to a bonus to attacks and damage rolls...
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
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Not all items adhere to these formulas (the ones you are attempting to use for the ring in the OP). First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.RAW says take the abilities gained from the item, find similar items that grant those abilities to find the price for that ability.
Start with the cost of the enhancement bonus to attack and damage, add the cost of an item that grants # DR/- (and an additional 50% of it) then total the two prices. You now have a real base line price to work with. Adjust as needed from there (add and additional 50% of that total as you have a ring that takes up a...
Can you show me an item that has scaling abilities and then resets? That is where we should start, not an item that is always and forever +5 to this or that.
Besides all this, it's pretty obvious that a magic item that grants the ability to be a deadly juggernaut *MUST* be a helm of some sort.
I got the reference and just for that you get two extra internets today. Feel honored.
Command phrase: "I'm the Juggernaut B**ch!"
Makes me want to see if my DM would allow this along with an item that allowed for a large bonus to Bull Rush or something.
hmm, I guess my juggernaut reference was too obscure. Next time for sure!
Scaling or not the ability grants that amount of luck bonus to multiple checks (str and skill), melee to hit & damage and DR does it not? So at some point during the usage of the item? And it stays in effect once that total is reached correct? The scaling might be worth a little discount but the pure amount of bonuses this thing would give makes the price ridiculously high.
I get that you want it to be cheaper but the reality of the matter is you are trying to 'game' the system by using the spell cost instead of the actual sum of bonuses the rules say you should use.
If you are absolutely dead set on using it as the spell make it an item that has uses per day.
"Whosoever touches this gem shall possess the power of the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak. Henceforth, you who read these words shall become forevermore a human juggernaut."
quoted Cain Marko as he takes up the gem of Cyttorak.
i'd say use the magic item creation rules.
a command word activation 3 charge per-day ring of deadly juggernaut would come to 16167.66g at minimum caster level (cleric 5, inquisitor 7, paladin/antipaladin 10). i think, anyway. i am not the best at the maths.
(Spell Level 3 x Caster Level 5 x 1800) / 1.666 repeating
the 1.66 (etc.) is 5 divided by the number of charges (3 in this case) as per the charges per day part of the item creation).
Just have it reset at the end of combat. I like the spell, and I like the idea of the ring. I think I'll throw it in my big bag of loot options for my players for later on down the road. ;)
60k seems appropriate. Means the player's can't get a hold of one til the teens, which seems fine to me.
I may tweak mine a bit for fun, perhaps make it so as the bonus increases the wearer becomes more enraged, and at five stacks is basically frenzied (will save to decide who to attack, else attack nearest person? Sounds fun...) ;)
Actually the price is 120,000. I had forgotten to add the 1 min/ level 2x multiplier. Which i would say is a good cost if an item if you put it up against a holy avenger that adds more than deadly Juggernaut does.
It's actually under priced compared to the holy avenger...
Luck bonus to attacks and damage (stacks with enhancement bonus from weapons and just about everything else, Luck type bonuses aren't frequent especially that high).
DR/- means ALL damage is reduced from all applicable attacks (significantly better than a low SR score).
Bonus to strength checks and all strength based skill checks.
Last but absolutely not least, the magic ring works for ALL characters not one particular class. If a holy avenger worked for all classes it would be roughly a third more expensive due to the 30% price decrease for the class limitation.
If you are going to compare it with something, try comparing apples to apples, not apples to oranges. As shown above the real price you should be comparing it to in that particular situation is 160,000 gold pieces, and that is still cheap in comparison to a holy avenger stated out to work for everyone as the ring gives significantly better bonuses.
DR/- works on anything that isn't magic. I would say that the item having an encounter reset would help keep it more in line with power level, as the bonuses are situational in nature. 160000 gold is not a small chunk of change. To bring the cost down, you might consider doing what the boots of speed do.
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Ring
. 10/- Damage reduction, ad hoc
(similar to continuous Stoneskin, 4th sor/wiz, 250gp component)
(4x7) x2,000gp x1.5 + (250gp x 100) = 109,000gp
. +5 luck bonus to hit: (5x5)x2,500gp = 62,500gp
add 50% for different additional ability (62,500/2) = 31,250pg
. +5 luck damage bonus: (5x5) x2,500pg = 62,500pg
add 50% for different additional ability (62,500/2) = 31,250pg
109,000 + (62,500 x 3) = 296,500gp market price
148,250gp cost to create.
I'd say this is the high end of pricing, but the damage reduction is still more powerful than most items and undervalued in this estimate.
This calculation also doesn't figure in the situational aspect of the scaling bonuses, it just provides a static maximum.
Except that's not at all how you price spell effects on items. Other than that, it's right on.I'm sorry, could you be a little more vague?
How do you price spell effects?
How do you price spell effects?Except that's not at all how you price spell effects on items. Other than that, it's right on.I'm sorry, could you be a little more vague?
. You play test them with multiple groups at various price points and see at which prices it always sells at. When you up the price to the point where it isn't 'standard adventure gear' for the types of characters it is geared towards you're approaching a decent price. When it isn't a 'bargain' for most players (too cheap) and it isn't a waste of money for others (too expensive).
Spells are meant to be, and balanced around, limited use. Some spells are better than others as we all know. Making persistent and unlimited use of spells via items breaks down certain aspects of that balance. The most notorious of them being a ring of true strike. Other spells are useful at certain levels and then less so (invisibility - once opponents have better senses, obscene skill checks or access to 'see in is' regularly) and magic items are priced slightly lower than we might expect. When spells grant multiple effects, a magic item that grants use of the spell on a regular basis gets priced according to those effects for a reason.
A spell like the one in question stays useful throughout an adventuring career. A luck bonus will just about always stack with everything else a character typically has, DR/- will always be useful and sometimes extremely so (the more opponents the more so it becomes).
I see alot of 'but it is scaling' and the reality is with something like this it takes very little effort to make sure it is up when you want/ need it to be. Summon NA/monsters is easily the go to spell/effect to accomplish this. Summon multiple weak creatures in the HD range and kill them, oh look my bonuses are maxed for the BBEG fight...
Items are priced for their full potential, not discounted because it could be used to lesser effect. When you cast a long duration buff spell do you choose to lower the duration because you may not need 2 hours of it? You could but it would be pretty stupid to do so, no? A fully enhanced magic sword isn't any cheaper because the half BAB classes could use it (sub optimally), it's priced for what it could do when being used effectively.
Except that's not at all how you price spell effects on items. Other than that, it's right on.Ring
. 10/- Damage reduction, ad hoc
(similar to continuous Stoneskin, 4th sor/wiz, 250gp component)
(4x7) x2,000gp x1.5 + (250gp x 100) = 109,000gp
. +5 luck bonus to hit: (5x5)x2,500gp = 62,500gp
add 50% for different additional ability (62,500/2) = 31,250pg
. +5 luck damage bonus: (5x5) x2,500pg = 62,500pg
add 50% for different additional ability (62,500/2) = 31,250pg109,000 + (62,500 x 3) = 296,500gp market price
148,250gp cost to create.
I'd say this is the high end of pricing, but the damage reduction is still more powerful than most items and undervalued in this estimate.
This calculation also doesn't figure in the situational aspect of the scaling bonuses, it just provides a static maximum.
Have you actually done more than casually glance at the magic item creation rules for custom items? I've quoted some of the rules in this thread even, and this is pretty much spot on for what RAW tells you to do...
True Strike
School divination; Level alchemist 1, inquisitor 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1; Domain destruction 1, luck 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, F (small wooden replica of an archery target)
EFFECT
Range personal
Target you
Duration see text
DESCRIPTION
You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.
true strike doesn't work. See duration.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Beyond the whole duration thing, the other thing that bothers me is it's a luck bonus that affects your attack and damage but isn't a weapon based enhancement. Most continuous or even use activated items that apply to weapon attack and damage rolls are weapon enhancements, there is a good reason for that.
This idea is very similar to Furyborn which is already a weapon enhancement.
Look up threads on people trying to make true strike rings since 3.x. It comes up more than it should and it's usually the same stuff over and over again. Spells hardly ever transfer over to continuous effect items 'as is' with the formula given, and the rules note it.