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How, exactly, are Gunslingers supposed to be viable?


Advice

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Demonskunk wrote:

Hey, all of the Alchemical rounds are useless if you don't want to use a Dragon Pistol, Scatter weapon or Blunderbuss.

in fact, Alchemical Cartridges can't even be used in the modern pistol.

1:Alchemical rounds let a one handed weapon fire as a free action when you get rapid reload, this affects non scatter weapons as well. Modern weapons like Revolvers and Rifles already use Cartridges by default, and thus are already move actions to reload before rapid reload.

Your Gunslinger NEEDS rapid reload to be viable, especially after level 6. A gunslinger, like most ranged characters, basically has LOCKED feats until level 9 or so, and the reason for this is also the reason why multiclassing a Gunslinger is a bad idea before level 5(or 1 as a mysterious stranger). You NEED that damage bonus from weapon training.

I suggest letting him take away whatever his second class is for now, you can still be a "rogue" or "bard" without having levels in those classes.

His feats as a gunslinger have to be these before he goes onwards.

In order: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim. There are basically no other choices for a ranged character. Since he's playing a one hander gunslinger I'd let him find a second weapon and try dual wielding since the to hit penalty is nil with Touch AC. Let me say here that a dual wielding gunslinger is terrifying.


Gorbacz wrote:


It bears repeating: Pathfinder is a game firmly based on several mathematical assumptions.

If you try to alter them without understanding them, you risk breaking the game for yourself and others at the table.

My very first 3.5 game featured zany stuff such as:

- level 6 party of three PCs facing against a CR 12 Fire Giant
- my Wiz/Clr/MT had at that point a ring of protection +1 and that's it for magic items
- the GM allowed a Paladin and a MT without as much as hitning that they are not the most optimal choices (we played Core only)

Once the game fell apart, I asked the GM what was his reasoning for the likes of above, he said something pretty much equivalent to "yeah well I thought it won't be much of a problem, it's a roleplaying game after all, not some wargame".

He was wrong. The D&D/PF ruleset is a wargame ruleset.

The next time when people attack me for saying that magic item crafting distorts WBL and thus disrupts the game, I'll link to this post ( or some of the ones below yours ). :p


So, the gunslinger in question here is still going to be a bit behind the curve thanks to the weird weird stats and multi-classing, but here's the quick and dirty changes you kinda need to make low gold/no gold Pathfinder workable:

1- Tell the players up front, before you start playing, that you're doing this.

2- Don't mess with starting cash. That's plenty low as is.

3- Make sure every martial class gets whatever weapons and armor they want to be using by at least level 3 if not much sooner. Got a paladin? Let him acquire, either by making the cash available or letting this stuff be directly looted: A suit of platemail that fits, a big ol' two handed sword, a composite longbow (if that's the sort of stuff he wants to use). Got a cavalier who wants to go all mounted combat happy? Same sort of deal. Make sure you also toss her a lance, and maybe some barding for her horse. And a gunslinger gets the specific gun they want, along with maybe a chain shirt and dagger or something. Maybe even two guns, if you're going ancient-only.

4- Make sure the wizard/magus gets a spellbook and component pouch, ditto divine casters' holy symbols.

5- Completely wave the cost of all arrows/bolts/bullets. Those prices aren't there to offset the amazing advantage of making ranged attacks, they're there for a little realism, and to provide a baseline for the cost of handy dandy special materials/bane ammo. The cost of bullets is a minor inconvenience to help push guns as something only gunslingers will use, but even there, it's a cost other players will only feel as "I'll skip grabbing an emergency CLW potion every level." When playing the game as-designed, nobody is ever worried about being able to afford ammo, or being forced to choose between ammo and anything else. You absolutely need to preserve that or ranged characters just plain aren't viable options.

6- Past a certain point, you need to start lowering the CR of what you're throwing at the party to adjust for them essentially having ever-growing penalties to their BAB, AC, saves, and damage dealing capacity. Unless you're the sort who likes to really start challenging the PCs at higher levels by consistently upping the relative CR of what they're fighting, then it all evens out.

7- Consider letting the party have access to one bag of holding for what little they do end up having to carry around, just to save everyone a lot of time working out who's carrying what.

8- Make sure you at least toss out cash frequently enough that the PCs can afford food and shelter. It's scary how often I've seen GMs insist the party track that for realism and then completely space out about providing for basic living expenses.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Urist The Unstoppable wrote:
Demonskunk wrote:

Hey, all of the Alchemical rounds are useless if you don't want to use a Dragon Pistol, Scatter weapon or Blunderbuss.

in fact, Alchemical Cartridges can't even be used in the modern pistol.

1:Alchemical rounds let a one handed weapon fire as a free action when you get rapid reload, this affects non scatter weapons as well. Modern weapons like Revolvers and Rifles already use Cartridges by default, and thus are already move actions to reload before rapid reload.

Your Gunslinger NEEDS rapid reload to be viable, especially after level 6. A gunslinger, like most ranged characters, basically has LOCKED feats until level 9 or so, and the reason for this is also the reason why multiclassing a Gunslinger is a bad idea before level 5(or 1 as a mysterious stranger). You NEED that damage bonus from weapon training.

I suggest letting him take away whatever his second class is for now, you can still be a "rogue" or "bard" without having levels in those classes.

His feats as a gunslinger have to be these before he goes onwards.

In order: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim. There are basically no other choices for a ranged character. Since he's playing a one hander gunslinger I'd let him find a second weapon and try dual wielding since the to hit penalty is nil with Touch AC. Let me say here that a dual wielding gunslinger is terrifying.

^^This.

Ranged characters have serious feat taxes to deal with to compensate for their increased number of potential attacks and various other advantages. You don't take the right feats, you will end up sucking. It's not like a Two-Handed Fighter who can take a slew of bad feats and still be a functional character. With a Gunslinger (or archer, or xbowman), if you don't take the right feats, you aren't going to be able to do your job. That issue is only going to be compounded by not having the appropriate gear available.

Andoran

As a level 8 Gunslinger I do have a few points to add in.

First few levels are tough for Gunslingers.
With alchemical rounds and Rapid Reload life gets better.
Pick up a Double Barreled pistol AS SOON AS YOU CAN!
Deadly Aim is another MUST HAVE.

At Level 8 I can hit almost everything as long as I don't roll a 1 or 2. Only Monks give me some issues.

Min Damage at Level 8 with 3 shots = 48
Max Damage at Level 8 with 3 shots = 69
One crit = 60+

And to the OP:

Holding back on his Gun and his gunsmithing kit is just wrong. Did you make the casters in the group wait until they could aford spell books and componets before they could learn to cast magic?

He could have "found" the gun and kit in some back ally in the trash. It is a battered after all and is not useable by anyone else. Heck add some flavor in and say that each day he has to make a craft check to see if its usable that day, or maybe the misfire chance is higher with a bad roll. Let the Gunslinger be a Gunslinger!

/rant on

A lot of GM's don't like guns because they feel that they don't "fit". If thats the case then tell your players that they cant play that class. Don't break it and then say it's broken and "force" them to play something else.

/rant off


Blueluck wrote:


What is your basic concept for this character?...

And, if you don't mind, a multiple choice question:

Thanks, this is a really good question and way about going about it. A little back story is that my character's father was a Shield Marshal, who was killed trying to bring down a criminal from Alkenstar. JB is following in his footseps. A sort of Texas Ranger / US marshal sorta deal. (only with Alkenstar)

the cavalier is for the horse more than anything, and ranger had to do with the group roughing it in the wilderness for months on end as a gnoll ranger as a father figure / teacher. I forgot to note that Ranger I went the Falconer archetype. I thought it was cool to have a bird I could have go scout.

E.) I am quite happy with my character, but not is performance. I would like some advice on what future choices to make.

Thematically I love the character, and how the game has made him change a bit. Playing him however, he plays like garbage. Partially due to the choices in levels, and due to the low access to stuff. I do find it funny that Alkenstar created guns to make up for the lack of predictable magic in the mana wastes. It seems like regular weapons are more effective.

Davick wrote:


As a gunslinger with Broken Wing Gambit, I'm curious as to what type of character you're playing...
...you may want to look into switching quick draw for rapid reload...

The Broken Wing Gambit is to fill the Tactician ability of Cavalier, The group constantly is taken advantage of so it makes sense for them to have grown to use that to their advantage.

From what I am reading, it seems a gunslinger really needs this feat. I find it interesting that getting a single feat either makes or breaks a class. I think a class should still be able to hold up without it in its basic form. Sure, not great but at least be viable.

I would love to be able to trade it out and wait out, my character's goal is to become a Shield Marshal. Right now, he meets the requirements for it. I suppose I can hold off three more levels.

Andoran

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Broken Wing Gambit isn't necessary for Gunslingers... However, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Precise Shot and the Gun Training class feature are. You unfortunately mashed three classes that are really good individually into a non-functional whole. Spend a little time bringing your Gunslinger levels up so you unlock the rest of your abilities and grab the feats you need to utilize your firearm efficiently, and you'll be more appreciative of your performance.

**SIDE-NOTE***

The Gunslinger is a weird class in that it's generally better to either take the Musket Master or Pistolero Archetypes, or always use whatever weapon you start with, because all of your feats and abilities only apply to a single type of fire-arm. Took Rapid Reload for your pistol at level one and want to use a Double-Barreled Pistol now? Good news, you need to retake Rapid Reload for your new weapon. Took Gun Training for your starting Musket and the GM just dropped a shiny new Axe Musket? Gonna have to wait until level 9 and take Gun Training in that. If you haven't taken Rapid Reload or other weapon-specific feats yet, you at least have a chance now to specify the weapon you really want to use.


AnachronicRodent wrote:
Blueluck wrote:


What is your basic concept for this character?...

And, if you don't mind, a multiple choice question:

Thanks, this is a really good question and way about going about it. A little back story is that my character's father was a Shield Marshal, who was killed trying to bring down a criminal from Alkenstar. JB is following in his footseps. A sort of Texas Ranger / US marshal sorta deal. (only with Alkenstar)

the cavalier is for the horse more than anything, and ranger had to do with the group roughing it in the wilderness for months on end as a gnoll ranger as a father figure / teacher. I forgot to note that Ranger I went the Falconer archetype. I thought it was cool to have a bird I could have go scout.

E.) I am quite happy with my character, but not is performance. I would like some advice on what future choices to make.

Thematically I love the character, and how the game has made him change a bit. Playing him however, he plays like garbage. Partially due to the choices in levels, and due to the low access to stuff. I do find it funny that Alkenstar created guns to make up for the lack of predictable magic in the mana wastes..

Davick wrote:


As a gunslinger with Broken Wing Gambit, I'm curious as to what type of character you're playing...
...you may want to look into switching quick draw for rapid reload...

The Broken Wing Gambit is to fill the Tactician ability of Cavalier, The group constantly is taken advantage of so it makes sense for them to have grown to use that to their advantage.

From what I am reading, it seems a gunslinger really needs this feat. I find it interesting that getting a single feat either makes or breaks a class. I think a class should still be able to hold up without it in its basic form. Sure, not great but at least be viable.

I would love to be able to trade it out and wait out, my character's goal is to become a Shield Marshal. Right now, he meets the requirements for it. I suppose I can hold off three...

You can easily fit all that flavor into a Gunslinger. You don't need to multiclass for a mount, just buy a horse. The advantage of a cavalier's mount is that it gets better as he levels. If you are only taking one level of cavalier, your mount never gets any better, so you might as well just buy a horse.

You could also have a falcon without multiclassing - just make sure you have a good Handle Animal skill. Rear a falcon, then teach it the tricks Seek, Fetch, and Come.

I would ask your GM to let you rebuild as a Gunslinger 5. You will get your dex to damage, which is huge. If you don't have Deadly Aim, swap out a feat for it. You might also ask if you can make some retroactive Handle Animal checks for your horse and falcon equivalent to the amount of time you've spent with your animal companions, in order to teach them the tricks you want them to know.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Can someone clarify something for me? The PRD says that Deadly Aim is not usable with touch attacks. Those of you who recommend it, are you using it for long range attacks only?

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
RumpinRufus wrote:

You can easily fit all that flavor into a Gunslinger. You don't need to multiclass for a mount, just buy a horse. The advantage of a cavalier's mount is that it gets better as he levels. If you are only taking one level of cavalier, your mount never gets any better, so you might as well just buy a horse.

You could also have a falcon without multiclassing - just make sure you have a good Handle Animal skill. Rear a falcon, then teach it the tricks Seek, Fetch, and Come.

Not to mention, a trained Heavy Warhorse will be superior to a level 1 cavalier mount in almost every way.


Firearm Rules wrote:
the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.

Guns are an exception to the "no touch attack" rules.

Andoran

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
The Fox wrote:
Can someone clarify something for me? The PRD says that Deadly Aim is not usable with touch attacks. Those of you who recommend it, are you using it for long range attacks only?

If you read under the Mastering Combat section of Ultimate Combat, you will see that Firearms are given a specific exemption to that limitation.

Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.


Ssalarn wrote:
Broken Wing Gambit isn't necessary for Gunslingers... However, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Precise Shot and the Gun Training class feature are

Yep, I can't really take advantage of it but it makes sense for the party. I can only take a Teamwork feat as the Tactician feat.

I will see if I can't get the cavalier level swapped out, but I would like to keep the level of ranger. The favored enemy: Human is nice and it fits with the story for having multi-classed into ranger.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
The Fox wrote:
Can someone clarify something for me? The PRD says that Deadly Aim is not usable with touch attacks. Those of you who recommend it, are you using it for long range attacks only?

If you read under the Mastering Combat section of Ultimate Combat, you will see that Firearms are given a specific exemption to that limitation.

Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.

Ah. Thank you.


FWIW

I enjoy a modified gunslinger for a pirate campaign. He started with one level of gunslinger and is a 5th level Ranger (Freebooter) now. He's a switch hitter with quick draw, power attack, rapid shot, rapid reload (pistol), and deadly aim (in that order).

He switches between greatsword, longbow and pistol. If armor bonuses are high, he goes to guns. He completely destroyed these half-plate wearing marines a couple sessions ago. If armor bonuses are low like sailors, he sticks with the bow with his high strength damage.

My advice for your rebuild:
With your stats, go gunslinger 1 then ranger levels archery, instead of my switch hitter. With your feats, go all archery that should go either longer and with your revolver. Review Freebooter to provide your party buffs, instead of cavalier. Get Handle Animal and Ride, and buy your horse. Or if you want a horse, don't be a freebooter and take the horse animal companion instead of falconer.

cheers


I got tired of reading all the replies but in my current game the gunslinger is one of the largest damage dealers.

Deadly aim, rapid reload, high dex it doesn't take much for that gunslinger to never miss and deal high amounts of damage. We actualy got to the point where even the player agreed to nerf the class by making it hit flat footed AC we game him a couple feats to replace the deeds that where useless with this mod. Gunslingers still one of the groups larger damage dealers but not overpowered


yea, taking those extra levels in other classes for no real reason I can see (the roleplaying seems sort of strange. if you wanted a horse, or good survival, you could buy a horse, and put ranks in survival.)

The fact is, I think as a player, its time to learn to separate the class from the character. You can have a fighter who calls himself a paladin, you can have a ranger who calls himself a paladin, you can have a cleric who calls himself a paladin. That's roleplaying. You don't have to take levels in paladin in order to belong to an order of holy knights who want to purge the world of evil. You only need levels in paladin if you want the abilities those levels give you.

In this case, instead of putting ranks in survival to represent learning wilderness techniques, you took a level in ranger. Why? well, I cant see why. Cuz the name was ranger, I guess. Take another level in gunslinger, put ranks in survival, call yourself a ranger.

Same with cavalier. You wanted a mount? ranks in handle animal, buy a damn horse. Call yourself a cavalier, if thats the roleplaying you're going for.

You've combined subpar character choices with GM screw on your items, and come to complain that gunslingers are weak.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but gunslingers are strong. Your Cavarangeslinger is awful. Not much more to it.


Weables wrote:


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but gunslingers are strong.

But ONLY if taking a set feats, and don't dare do anything other than that, and wait levels and levels for the occasional grit power which most are awesome thematically, but only a few are actually helpful. It just seems so horribly under-powered otherwise. The other classes can stand on their own, and with variety and while some feats are surely important, there are many combinations you can go.


Archer builds are the same way - ridiculously powerful if you take the right feats, but quite poor if you take the wrong ones.


AnachronicRodent wrote:
Weables wrote:


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but gunslingers are strong.

But ONLY if taking a set feats, and don't dare do anything other than that, and wait levels and levels for the occasional grit power which most are awesome thematically, but only a few are actually helpful. It just seems so horribly under-powered otherwise. The other classes can stand on their own, and with variety and while some feats are surely important, there are many combinations you can go.

This is less gunslingers, and more every ranged character ever.

Want to use a bow, crossbow, or gun effectively, the price is always the same.

edit: and getting a big performance upgrade at level 5 is by no means unique to Gunslingers.

Inquisitors (Bane)
Wizards (Haste, Fireball, Fly etc)
Magus (Arcane pool now allows keen, for crit fishing builds, a gigantic portion of all Magus builds)
Clerics (Animate Dead, for those necromancers)

All get huge power boosts at level 5, and every martial gets another huge power boost at 6 with their first extra attack from BAB.

The game is actually designed around a big jump in power at that level, if you look at the CRs as well. Its fairly normal for a lot of classes to 'hit their stride' so to speak.

Shadow Lodge

AnachronicRodent wrote:
Weables wrote:


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but gunslingers are strong.

But ONLY if taking a set feats, and don't dare do anything other than that, and wait levels and levels for the occasional grit power which most are awesome thematically, but only a few are actually helpful. It just seems so horribly under-powered otherwise. The other classes can stand on their own, and with variety and while some feats are surely important, there are many combinations you can go.

It doesn't sound like you are wanting the gunslinger class to stand on its own. You want to have a character level 5 with three classes none of which have enough levels in them to get to their good stuff and are then concerned when you are not being effective. There are all manner of class combinations that would result in the same issue, not just gunslinger.

I also agree with Weables to finds the roleplay reasons for this cross classing to be odd. There is no real reason that a character would ditch his primary skill set just because he is thrown into different conditions. Instead he would seek to apply his skill set to those situations. Hence the old adage that when all you have is a hammer every problem is a nail. So while he might pick up some of the more useful trappings of a ranger or cavalier such as training a bird or buying a horse. It is unlikely he is going to put off honing his fire arm skills for those things. Doing so would be a poor decision not just from a game mechanics point of view but from an in character point of view and thus would suffer in character consequences such as being less effective.


AnachronicRodent wrote:
Weables wrote:


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but gunslingers are strong.

But ONLY if taking a set feats, and don't dare do anything other than that, and wait levels and levels for the occasional grit power which most are awesome thematically, but only a few are actually helpful. It just seems so horribly under-powered otherwise. The other classes can stand on their own, and with variety and while some feats are surely important, there are many combinations you can go.

So your complaint is that you can't pick random things and auto win as a gunslinger-ish? Honestly this is an inane argument. If you want to be good at something you pick certain feats and classes that's true of every character in the game of every class. You want to be an effective Save or Suck spell caster? Gotta get spell focus, and greater spell focus and pump your int. Want to be a good Two handed Fighter? Pick up Power attack. Want to two weapon fight effectively? Be a ranger or a fighter with the right archetypes and feat progression.

You can't just randomly pick things and expect to get an effective character. I can make a truly useless fighter by wasting all my feats on getting spring attack and using a light weapon + a shield but that doesn't make fighters weak it means I screwed up. Accept responsibility and beg your DM for a do over.


Sean H wrote:
Demonskunk wrote:

First off, he has a revolver, so reloading isn't an issue. Ammunition cost is why he almost never uses the thing.

Second off, he has a full kit now, and he's still made worthless by any enemy with even the tiniest of DR that isn't /Piercing or /Bludgeoning.

It should only cost him 1.1gp/shot if he's making his own ammunition(as he should). Even if me makes all of his ammo Cold Iron, which isn't a bad idea, they would all be 1.2gp. That's hardly prohibitive; even Silver bullets would only cost 1.5gp and Adamantine ones 7gp. Compared to 180gp or 3,000gp for a silver or adamantine sword, respectively, that's nothing.

So why is DR a problem, again?

???? Ammunition made of what? Cold Iron? Adamantine? Those 50-60 cal balls that are made to fire out of a gun are made from lead with maybe a little tin or zinc for a little hardener. I might see 10% Alchemical silver, but really. Has anyone hear ever done any reloading or made their own ammo? An iron pot to melt the lead to 600 degrees maybe. If you put a ball that hard into a musket I can guarantee it will blow up! These primitive firearms could not handle anything with a BHN hardness higher than 15. Lead is 5. To give you an idea what these look like:

Track of the Wolf
And yes, they would not be that hard for a gunslinger to make his own with a melting pot, ladle, molds and sprue. Having your wizard make you some heat resistant gloves would be a good idea as well.


Wait, what? You're really surprised that a fantasy game's crafting rules let you make bullets out of fictional materials?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Your magic makes my science angry.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
magnuskn wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:


It bears repeating: Pathfinder is a game firmly based on several mathematical assumptions.

If you try to alter them without understanding them, you risk breaking the game for yourself and others at the table.

My very first 3.5 game featured zany stuff such as:

- level 6 party of three PCs facing against a CR 12 Fire Giant
- my Wiz/Clr/MT had at that point a ring of protection +1 and that's it for magic items
- the GM allowed a Paladin and a MT without as much as hitning that they are not the most optimal choices (we played Core only)

Once the game fell apart, I asked the GM what was his reasoning for the likes of above, he said something pretty much equivalent to "yeah well I thought it won't be much of a problem, it's a roleplaying game after all, not some wargame".

He was wrong. The D&D/PF ruleset is a wargame ruleset.

The next time when people attack me for saying that magic item crafting distorts WBL and thus disrupts the game, I'll link to this post ( or some of the ones below yours ). :p

Why? This has nothing to do with crafting? All I see are examples of a GM not using CR correctly nor giving out magic items. Hell he's lucky. I had a GM that at level 9 would give us nothing but horseshoes. I'm not even making that up. The best weapon anyone had was a silver masterwork dagger.


Bearded Ben wrote:
Wait, what? You're really surprised that a fantasy game's crafting rules let you make bullets out of fictional materials?

I don't have an issue with fictional materials, but they should make some sense and follow some laws of physics! Or are they all "magic" guns and ammo? Or have we just taken fantasy to pure make believe now?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Fictional Materials.

That is a real weird thing to get nitpicky about.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
brvheart wrote:
Bearded Ben wrote:
Wait, what? You're really surprised that a fantasy game's crafting rules let you make bullets out of fictional materials?
I don't have an issue with fictional materials, but they should make some sense and follow some laws of physics! Or are they all "magic" guns and ammo? Or have we just taken fantasy to pure make believe now?

Some level of reality handwaving has to be done to keep the game flowing.

It's why we don't have rules for pooping or tracking the need to do so.

please never remedy that, Paizo!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber
brvheart wrote:
Bearded Ben wrote:
Wait, what? You're really surprised that a fantasy game's crafting rules let you make bullets out of fictional materials?
I don't have an issue with fictional materials, but they should make some sense and follow some laws of physics! Or are they all "magic" guns and ammo? Or have we just taken fantasy to pure make believe now?

Many things in this game don't follow physics or 'make sense,' you're going to have to deal with it in certain parts of the game.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:
brvheart wrote:
Bearded Ben wrote:
Wait, what? You're really surprised that a fantasy game's crafting rules let you make bullets out of fictional materials?
I don't have an issue with fictional materials, but they should make some sense and follow some laws of physics! Or are they all "magic" guns and ammo? Or have we just taken fantasy to pure make believe now?

Some level of reality handwaving has to be done to keep the game flowing.

It's why we don't have rules for pooping or tracking the need to do so.

please never remedy that, Paizo!

Off Topic:
Yeah... I already had to deal with that a while ago when someone continued to try and take actions after their rogue died since it didn't explicitly state you can't. Was annoying, but quickly shot him down when I said (jokingly of course) by RAW, his rogue is illegal and no longer is playable, as the rogue is always referred to as a female in the Core Rules and his rogue was male.

He quickly became a-ok with dying and being reincarnated ;)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Odraude wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
brvheart wrote:
Bearded Ben wrote:
Wait, what? You're really surprised that a fantasy game's crafting rules let you make bullets out of fictional materials?
I don't have an issue with fictional materials, but they should make some sense and follow some laws of physics! Or are they all "magic" guns and ammo? Or have we just taken fantasy to pure make believe now?

Some level of reality handwaving has to be done to keep the game flowing.

It's why we don't have rules for pooping or tracking the need to do so.

please never remedy that, Paizo!

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Another reason to support alternating gender pronouns in rule books! :D

You can, I chose not to. In any case, in a perfect world I would not allow the use of guns whatsoever in a campaign, but with Razor Coast coming out I need to explore at what level I want them to affect the campaign. I would rather hash it out BEFORE the campaign than during. I have had a few campaigns in the past that had extremely limited use of firearms, but few had any knowledge of how to use them. You might find an old one, but using it would be as much of a danger to the party as the enemy. For myself, I would have a hard time seeing fantasy characters using my Single Action pistols and Lever Action Rifles. I enjoy both but like Ice Cream and Mayonnaise some things weren't meant to go together.


brvheart wrote:

If you put a ball that hard into a musket I can guarantee it will blow up! These primitive firearms could not handle anything with a BHN hardness higher than 15. Lead is 5. To give you an idea what these look like:

Track of the Wolf
And yes, they would not be that hard for a gunslinger to make his own with a melting pot, ladle, molds and sprue. Having your wizard make you some heat resistant gloves would be a good idea as well.

Ok - so, cuz I'm a biology rather than materials science kinda guy and I'm curious, I'll bite: Why precisely would hardness be an issue? Musket balls needing to deform somehow during the process of firing to make it out of the barrel?


When did DnD become a simulation of material physics?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PatientWolf wrote:
This is exactly the problem we are having in our current group. Our GM wants to run a low magic low gold world. We keep struggling through encounter after encounter. At level 11 it is do one or two fights then go out to rest. Do one or two fights then go out to rest. The GM insists that the CR is only supposed to be challenging and does not understand when we tell him the CR assumes that the PCs have access to...

I just don't really get how people can assume that CR is based solely on party level and nothing else, especially when the game provides average WBL statistics. That right there should be a hint that characters are expected to be stronger than just what their class provides.

Off Topic:
I'm trying to do a restricted magic game myself, but I'm not stupid about how this game works and I've been having my players stumble onto things that get them somewhere close to where they need to be power-wise. They're only level 3 right now, but they're raiding an abandoned mage's school where I've been throwing potions and general-use gear at them. For instance, they've gotten a masterwork silver dagger, adamantine greataxe, a handy haversack, a custom invisibility cloak(we were making Hogwarts jokes, so I had to throw it in), a whole bunch of your standard potions(CLW, BS, CG, BE), as well as everyone getting masterwork armor/weapons. They also own a silver mine that acts as a steady source of income(500gp per character per two weeks). Right now, with the amount of potions and everything I've handed them, I'd actually say that they're very slightly overpowered for their level. They're going to slowly fall back to being underpowered for a couple levels right after they hit level 5, but after that they'll end up being back at full power again.

I also threw in a potion of irresistable dance, despite it being something that really shouldn't be a potion. But it's meant to be a trap, in hopes of them just drinking the thing without identifying it first. If they don't drink it it's going to get confiscated because it's just meant to be a gag, but I'm really hoping that one of them does.


To people going on about the materials, I'm just imagining what sort of heat you would need to go about casting some Adamantine bullets. If you went to fire that thing, say goodbye to any rifling your gun may have. I suppose you would need to go the Armor Piercing route and have an adamantine core with a softer metal on the outside.

I see a lot of people do not like firearms, but I want to know how Paizo is going to handle them in the future. You have the bonus that they are more or less regulated by Alkenstar. It's one of the purposes of Shield Marshals to make sure that no one other than those they want, to have them.


All bullets deform on the process of firing going down the barrel, even FMJ. That is what gives them the grove marks on the bullet that is unique to each gun. If there is any space available they will expand to fill it as the bullet travels out the barrel. The powder when it ignites creates and explosion that causes pressure to build up behind the bullet causing it to move down the barrel. If the bullet is too hard it cannot be expelled and the barrel blows up instead. Too much or worse too little powder can cause the same result. Unlike BP, modern powders don't explode as much as a propellent to push the bullet but can achieve similar disastrous results if not loaded properly. Nothing worse that your new 5000 GP modern gun exploding because the alcemist didn't the powder right in the charge! Or worse, he double charged it because his wife was nagging him about taking out the trash!


gnomersy wrote:
AnachronicRodent wrote:
Weables wrote:


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but gunslingers are strong.

But ONLY if taking a set feats, and don't dare do anything other than that, and wait levels and levels for the occasional grit power which most are awesome thematically, but only a few are actually helpful. It just seems so horribly under-powered otherwise. The other classes can stand on their own, and with variety and while some feats are surely important, there are many combinations you can go.

So your complaint is that you can't pick random things and auto win as a gunslinger-ish? Honestly this is an inane argument. If you want to be good at something you pick certain feats and classes that's true of every character in the game of every class. You want to be an effective Save or Suck spell caster? Gotta get spell focus, and greater spell focus and pump your int. Want to be a good Two handed Fighter? Pick up Power attack. Want to two weapon fight effectively? Be a ranger or a fighter with the right archetypes and feat progression.

You can't just randomly pick things and expect to get an effective character. I can make a truly useless fighter by wasting all my feats on getting spring attack and using a light weapon + a shield but that doesn't make fighters weak it means I screwed up. Accept responsibility and beg your DM for a do over.

Right, except even with all the right feats, the gunslinger's got one trick - shoot it. The skill list is meh, most of the social skills aren't on it, and even the ones that are don't have any attribute synergy with the gunslinger's dex and wis. it basically suffers from the fighter's problems, except it's more focused. Comparing it to a save-or-suck caster is silly.


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Nightheir wrote:


Right, except even with all the right feats, the gunslinger's got one trick - shoot it. The skill list is meh, most of the social skills aren't on it, and even the ones that are don't have any attribute synergy with the gunslinger's dex and wis. it basically suffers from the fighter's problems, except it's more focused. Comparing it to a save-or-suck caster is silly.

I never said the Gunslinger is super awesome but building one wrong and then complaining that they suck is downright stupid.

The Gunslinger does only have one trick yes just like the Two Hand Fighter has one trick.

In fact the Gunslinger has a pretty advantageous starting point Dex is a great attribute to focus it nets him damage, saves, and AC bonuses, on top of that the wis that he wants to boost for grit points nets him better will saves and a higher score on perception which is arguably the best skill in the game. He can also use it to boost his Sense Motive if he feels like it. He also has two good saves unlike the fighter which means he doesn't have to worry as much about spells knocking him out of the fight.

Yes with the right feats instead of shooting badly he shoots things well but he loses nothing in terms of skills(he still has more than the fighter and at least enough to get by on), he has full BAB growth coupled with targeting touch AC which makes it laughably easy for him to land hits on the target most fighters would have a terrible time trying to hit, and he can still get past DR using clustered shots, specialty ammo, or just putting out enough damage to ignore it once he has deadly aim and gun training.

Hell if you really want to with advanced guns you even have the option to make a pretty decent acrobatics using shot on the run style gunslinger as you level up.

And really you can get all of your core feats done by like level 5 as a human at least. 1st level Point blank, human bon. Precise, level 3 Rap. Reload, level 4 deadly aim, level 5 Rapid shot. Done everything from there on is gravy.


No rapid reload, no deadly aim, no rapid shot? You generally don't need quick draw because you are a full BAB class so you cna draw as a move from level 1.

Also that sure is a lot of wisdom, you really don't need that much, more dex would always be better

You actually take rapid reload first, because it is SO important. You cannot emphasize how important rapid reload is. Precise shot is pretty meh, who cares if you have a -4 when you hit touch?


Probably worth a reminder that this thread was started by the GM, not the gunslinger player.


The player also posted and asked for advice


CWheezy wrote:
NOTE: Sadly on a critical your dex isn't multiplied because it is precise damage how cheap is that

I imagine I probably missed something, but what makes you say this? I don't recall seeing anything to specify it as precision damage. It seems to be as untyped as a strength bonus on melee damage or a dex bonus on dervish dance.

Shadow Lodge

I'm with Rodent. You shouldn't have to have your entire feat list dictated until level 5-7 in order to play a reasonably effective character. Sure if you want to be optimized you need to worry about getting your build just right, but one feat shouldn't be the difference between overpowered and ineffective - Rodent has PBS and Precise Shot, he's not just throwing his feats away.

Two-handed fighting has one must have-feat, and Two-Weapon fighting is also possible though not optimal with just the one feat. Sword and Board does not technically need any feats unless you're shield bashing - you just trade some damage for some AC. Optimal archery requires a careful list of feats, but competent archery just needs PBS and Precise Shot.

If gunslingers have all those advantages going for them, why exactly do they need to be so careful about getting the exact perfect build?

AnachronicRodent wrote:
I will see if I can't get the cavalier level swapped out, but I would like to keep the level of ranger. The favored enemy: Human is nice and it fits with the story for having multi-classed into ranger.

That sounds like a good idea. That way you'll get Gun Training at your next level, and you can pick up a bonus combat feat immediately - your two best choices are probably Rapid Shot or Deadly Aim, since with the Revolver you don't have to worry about reload times. Special materials bullets should let you bypass DR just fine most of the time if your GM improves your access to them, and Oil of Magic Weapon is real handy for DR/magic. Otherwise doing d8+4 with Deadly Aim will let you at least overcome it. And again, Gun Training next level will help.

CWeezy wrote:
You actually take rapid reload first, because it is SO important. You cannot emphasize how important rapid reload is. Precise shot is pretty meh, who cares if you have a -4 when you hit touch?

He has a revolver and can reload 6 shots as a move action. Rapid Reload is generally pretty good for a Gunslinger but it not going to be a big deal for this guy.


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Darkwolf117 wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
NOTE: Sadly on a critical your dex isn't multiplied because it is precise damage how cheap is that
I imagine I probably missed something, but what makes you say this? I don't recall seeing anything to specify it as precision damage. It seems to be as untyped as a strength bonus on melee damage or a dex bonus on dervish dance.

Yeah sorry I was thinking of Deadshot, whoops


Weirdo wrote:

I'm with Rodent. You shouldn't have to have your entire feat list dictated until level 5-7 in order to play a reasonably effective character. Sure if you want to be optimized you need to worry about getting your build just right, but one feat shouldn't be the difference between overpowered and ineffective - Rodent has PBS and Precise Shot, he's not just throwing his feats away.

Two-handed fighting has one must have-feat, and Two-Weapon fighting is also possible though not optimal with just the one feat. Sword and Board does not technically need any feats unless you're shield bashing - you just trade some damage for some AC. Optimal archery requires a careful list of feats, but competent archery just needs PBS and Precise Shot.

If gunslingers have all those advantages going for them, why exactly do they need to be so careful about getting the exact perfect build?

That sounds like a good idea. That way you'll get Gun Training at your next level, and you can pick up a bonus combat feat immediately - your two best choices are probably Rapid Shot or Deadly Aim, since with the Revolver you don't have to worry about reload times. Special materials bullets should let you bypass DR just fine most of the time if your GM improves your access to them, and Oil of Magic Weapon is real handy for DR/magic. Otherwise doing d8+4 with Deadly Aim will let you at least overcome it. And again, Gun Training next level will help.

He has a revolver and can reload 6 shots as a move action. Rapid Reload is generally pretty good for a Gunslinger but it not going to...

Define possible. Sure you can twf with a Rogue with 1 feat or a fighter with 1 feat but if you don't invest heavily into it you're not going to be good at it nor will you be as good at hurting things as someone who invested heavily in THF or Sword and Board fighting w/ shield bashes. If you want to come and ask for help or ask why something isn't working you should accept that you're going to be told what you did wrong.

And it's not that the Gunslinger absolutely has to be built one way or he sucks, it's that you can't intentionally avoid all the good things the slinger does and then blame the class.

The biggest advantage a gunslinger gets is at level 5 by getting dex to damage, not taking GS straight up till 5 is like building a dervish dancer getting all the prereqs then delaying getting the key feat for 2 levels you're going to be awful for those two levels no ifs ands or buts about it.

But even then you CAN do it and not do too badly, had he taken GS to 3 and then swapped off to Ranger and Cav. but still picked the right feats(namely Rapid shot, and Deadly Aim instead of Quick draw, and whatever his other superfluous feat was) he could be doing 2 shots a round for 1d8+4-5 dmg per shot which isn't as good as 1d8+8-10 which he could get using the right stat block and lvl 5 in GS but is still several steps above his single 1d8+1 which he currently does.


Weirdo wrote:
I'm with Rodent. You shouldn't have to have your entire feat list dictated until level 5-7 in order to play a reasonably effective character. Sure if you want to be optimized you need to worry about getting your build just right, but one feat shouldn't be the difference between overpowered and ineffective - Rodent has PBS and Precise Shot, he's not just throwing his feats away.

I'm inclined to say that the feats on a gunslinger really aren't that locked in, especially not in this case.

As you pointed out, he's got a revolver, so Rapid Reload isn't that big of a deal. Precise Shot is a feat tax as much as it is on any ranged character, but if he's willing to deal with the -4 to hit (which actually isn't necessarily that bad, seeing as he's going to be targeting touch in almost all cases), he can actually skip over that. Rapid shot does a lot for damage output, but again, it's just making things more effective than they already are.

The feat I would really say is most useful would be Deadly Aim. At low levels, it adds some good old static damage, which is usually a big deal for effectiveness, and on a full BAB class, it just keeps giving.

Second though is the wait until Gun Training. Like Deadly Aim, it's the static damage that you really want, and I can understand it being a pretty painful few levels until you get it.

So, I guess it depends on what would be considered a reasonably effective build and how long you think it should take to pay off. With one feat (Deadly Aim) and 5 levels of Gunslinger, you've got d8+4+Dex damage on every shot and targeting touch AC. Honestly, that seems really good for the investment. If he goes for Rapid Shot he's got that twice on a full attack, but I wouldn't say it's required to make an effective gunslinger, it just makes them better.

I dunno, my 2cp at least.

CWheezy wrote:
Yeah sorry I was thinking of Deadshot, whoops

Ah, okay then.


firefly the great wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
If you're screwing around with default rules for gear and WBL, well, you end up screwing people over.

I think this should be posted on the front page of the forums, in giant red lettering. I understand that people are comfortable with a ruleset that they already know; Pathfinder in particular has cashed in on people spending a lot of time and energy learning 3.5.

But if you're tired of running a Pathfinder-style campaign, with its WBL tables and plentiful magic items, you should try running something that isn't Pathfinder. Because, honestly, what you're running now isn't Pathfinder, and it doesn't seem like you have taken the time to consider what it actually is.

As you stated Pathfinder cashed in on a lot of players that are heavily vested in 3.5 so don't be surprised if there is some significant resistance to some of the changes that have been made. This is your core constituency. Besides, I as a DM, and I WILL retain the right to that title, am supposed to give players treasure even if they do not earn it? Case in point my current party is averaging level 5 and around 6000 GP. About level 4 in WBL. Well, the difference in treasure was there, they just did not find it. Am I just supposed to rain it from the sky? They had opportunity last weekend to gain 22,000 GP worth by defeating a Pirate crew. Yes, the enounter was tough, but so was the reward. Instead they got several players captured and ended paying over 2000 GP in ransom to get them back. There were 6 of them and I gave them extra XP for fighting a tough encounter even though they did not succeed. Am I supposed to just give them the gold even though they did not earn it? They had bypassed several hoards of treasure previously that they did not find. Do I put up Neon signs?

Pathfinder is produced under the OGL and is often refered to as 3.75. It should be a logical extension of what has been done before. WOTC did not learn that with 4E. I have no issues with Paizo and grant them their success. Even in table 12-4 it states this is for an average fantasy campaign and allows for low fantasy. Me thinks that some that wish to play High Fantasy begrudge us that do not.
Getting back on topic. I thought Deadly Aim does not work for touch attacks so how does this help a Gunslinger?

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
brvheart wrote:
Me thinks that some that wish to play High Fantasy begrudge us that do not.

You can play whatever kind of fantasy you want. But not all classes are built to cover every type of setting. The gunslinger is an especial outrigger class compared to the big four. And isn't going to work well in all types of d20 compatible settings, just as I would not expect people to make Alchemists if your setting is Cavemen and Clubs. The gunslinger especially suffers from multi-classing due to it's dependence on it's class ability progression. You actually have to stick with the class to make it pay off. It suffers even more if the player can't keep himself in bullets and shot. It's kind of ironic that he has these restrictions given that he already has an advanced firearm.

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