I recently played a game of a D20 system, Darwin's world, and the DM made a few changes that worked fairly well.
I'd like to expand on this for the next game I DM, starting Thursday, using Pathfinder.
The changes I am making are:
1) Armour as DR. This is a fairly standard one to use.
2) Because AC is now touch AC in effect, no stats add a bonus to hit. CMB/CMD remain unchanged.
3) As stats are less emphasised for combat, the same should hold for casting. Save DCs are now calculated as 12 + spell level + 1/2 caster level.
I'm hoping this will lead to a more interesting game with high stats de-emphasised a little, giving PCs a little more flexibility in character creation. MAD classes don't suffer so much, particularly the monk.
Does this not all but remove the Strength ability from the game?
I'm interested to hear more about how this works out, what people wind up doing with their characters, etc. I admit that I think there is too much pressure to let your build determine your stat array, instead of character concept.
I try not to make any drastic changes in my games, but the one way I approach MAD is to replace the +1 ability bonus you get every 4 levels. Instead, I hand out "point-buy" points that can be spent in the same manner as the ability points you get at character creation. You get 2 points at level 2, and an additional point at each character level thereafter. Each stat increase after 18 costs 4 "point-buy" points.
This makes it little easier for MAD characters to grow their stats a little more evenly without punishing monostat builds. For example, for the cost of turning an 18 Str into a 19 Str, you could up an 11 into a 14.
On the other hand, this isn't a very big change, and it doesn't encourage people to stat their characters for concept rather than build, so I'm always looking for other small changes I can make.
Does this not all but remove the Strength ability from the game?
From the sounds of it, Strength still governs damage, carrying capacity, and associated skills (climb, etc). And of course Strength checks.
Exactly so. And Dexterity still adds to AC and saves, just not to accuracy in shooting. In fact with armour as DR, inflicting large quantities of damage may be MORE important, so I am toying with features like Weapon Finesse adding to damage instead of to hit (which is obviously precluded anyway).
However while it still makes high stats desirable, my point was to not cripple those characters that are unable by means of MAD or unwilling by means of concept to blow one stat through the roof just in order to function.
I think it may also make combats last longer - it has in the Darwin's World game.
Yeah, I really want to hear more about how this goes, and what other changes you find you have to make (the idea about Weapon Finesse appears sound). I would actually try this out myself if my group was more experienced.
I try not to make any drastic changes in my games, but the one way I approach MAD is to replace the +1 ability bonus you get every 4 levels. Instead, I hand out "point-buy" points that can be spent in the same manner as the ability points you get at character creation. You get 2 points at level 2, and an additional point at each character level thereafter. Each stat increase after 18 costs 4 "point-buy" points.
Did you invent this?
How is Natural Armor handled? If it is the same then AC really isn't touch AC.
Natural armour is added to the DR provided by normal armour, but shields are an interesting question. I'm also inclined to add the armour bonus (of armour) to the DR/armour rather than the Defence score, but leave shields in Defence. I can cope with shields being part of touch AC.
Add damage to BAB. Then you can remove things like weapon finesse altogether.
Did you invent this?I try not to make any drastic changes in my games, but the one way I approach MAD is to replace the +1 ability bonus you get every 4 levels. Instead, I hand out "point-buy" points that can be spent in the same manner as the ability points you get at character creation. You get 2 points at level 2, and an additional point at each character level thereafter. Each stat increase after 18 costs 4 "point-buy" points.
I wish I could claim credit, but I got the idea from someone else who posted it here. Really, the idea came out as a group effort on several people's parts. That's one of the things I really love about these forums; all this collaboration yields some awesome results.
I don't follow you. What's the logic in adding damage to BAB, or did you mean we should add BAB to damage when rolled? I think that will just give us a high score for damage which kind of undoes the whole point of having DR in the first place.
I've decided to simplify the system to make it easier to calculate on the fly: Defence AC = touch AC, DR = standard AC - touch AC. Saves all the mucking about.
adding bab to damage. I have considered a similar conversion myself, but it became apparent that it would be impossible to cut through high level monster DR. Standard output would not be capable of punching through dragon hide (CR 20 is something like 35 DR).
You have a point, and it could work well. For a monk with a monk weapon I'd add level to damage instead, but yes, that could work well.
that is the predictable full casting DC for a ability score prime. At least very close.
Why not? Poor casting progression should be an adequate penalty.
With less emphasis on some abilities, there will be more points to spread around to boost saves which will make the dcs for saves not as much of an issue.
I like to use the 4 Ed ability boosts. Plus one to two abilities at 4, and plus one to all at 8. Then repeat.... I think this shows physical and mental growth through adventuring just like the increase/ decrease in abilities for aging.
We discussed this idea of armor as DR in our game.
Unfortunately, some of the PCs would have so much DR that the DM would not be able to damage them with a normal CR monster.
It looks like it could go the other way as well with some monsters having so much DR that we, the players, would not be able to hurt it.
We toyed around with the idea that maybe a "sunder" attack could lower a monster's DR, even natural armor, to try and get around this stalemate.
Eventually we decided it seemed like an interesting idea but combat already takes too long and we don't want it to take any longer.
Combat may take 'too long' in real time, but in game time, 3 rounds can be a 'long' combat.
On the question of DR getting too high to get through...
I think reducing DR/armour by +1 for every +1 of BAB the attacker has would adequately reduce damage from attacks. After all, +5 plate, +5 heavy shield, +5 Amulet of Natural Armour would give DR 28/armour - to a 20th level fighter this would be DR 8/armour.
I use a Version of 3.5's Class Defense Bonuses that are based on the Classes B.A.B.
It ends up providing an interesting feel.
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Monk's for the longest time will have a hard time getting DR while the DR of armor wearers will continue increasing. The monk will still have to choose between bypassing DR with Strength or increasing touch AC to avoid getting hit as they don't get DR. All the while, fighters can ignore Dex and keep increasing DR by getting better armor. As they have perpetually increasing DR, Constitution is less necessary for Fighters as it is for the Monks.
Fighter DR is capped at 9 do to Full Plate.
Monks can still get a nice AC as in the Normal AC rules.
Monk armor from wisdom might need to function as DR, otherwise they will totally outstrip everyone's ability to hit them. If BAB lowers DR by its value though, it would essentially eliminate the bonus... hmmm.
Class Defense Bonus. This is what I use. Only I tend to increase Monks to Full B.A.B. But I still have them add STR to Attack Rolls.
Monk armor from wisdom might need to function as DR, otherwise they will totally outstrip everyone's ability to hit them. If BAB lowers DR by its value though, it would essentially eliminate the bonus... hmmm.
I think the monk should try to avoid getting hit as opposed to DR.
Monk armor from wisdom might need to function as DR, otherwise they will totally outstrip everyone's ability to hit them. If BAB lowers DR by its value though, it would essentially eliminate the bonus... hmmm.
Exactly. Monks would be very hard to hit, but will hurt more when they ARE hit. AS for punching through DR, they will have full BAB when they flurry, remember, which will cut down on the DR/armour of the target as much as for a fighter. If Weapon Finesse adds to damage rather than to hit as outlined above, it's effectively the agile property on a whole lot of attacks for free.
For one feat, a dex-based monk is hitting as hard and accurate as a fighter, pretty much, while being a lot harder to hit (but easier to damage if you do).
That's a fair point.
This may have an unfortunate side effect in that some characters will be wearing armor, but getting nothing out of it. I wonder if it wouldn't be better for some fraction of bab value cuts through DR as opposed to all of it.
There is a class defense bonus that should be used in conjunction with "DR as armor". Dex and magical bonuses to armor increase AC, as does the class defense bonus and shields, if I remember correct. Monks, rogues, and other light armor wearers tend to not get hit as often (but when they do it HURTS), while heavies get hit all the time, but DR helps soak up the damage.
What you need to do is nerf the BaB bonuses and instead give extra attack iterations when applicable. Essentially it turns into static to hit bonuses vs Dex based ACs or the inevitable DR.
Take away the base plus 10 to AC, and let the attacker roll to hit, while the defender rolls to evade. Full BaB classes get a +2 to hit, medium BaB gets a +1, and low BaB gets +0. In addition to this, you can add a riposte feat where if an attacker misses AC by >5 the defender gets an attack of opportunity. This helps mitigate the poor damage output of dex based characters, and keeps combat super lively. Critical hits will now do normal damage, but bypass DR.
Keep weapon finesse as is, or eliminate it altogether. If I pick up a sword and start swinging it then either, a) it will be too heavy for me to use and I will find a lighter weapon, or b) I will find a way to use it effectively wether it be to use my str or finesse.
This may have an unfortunate side effect in that some characters will be wearing armor, but getting nothing out of it. I wonder if it wouldn't be better for some fraction of bab value cuts through DR as opposed to all of it.
The problem there is that at high level the DR values will be huge. At every level, armour should be providing you with some DR. For example, if you are a 15th level fighter, with +5 plate and +5 amulet, you have DR19/armour, so an attack from a similar 15th level fighter would still give you DR4/armour. Shields get more attractive, as +4 plate and +4 shield would give you DR24/armour, which will soak more damage. Adamantine armour gets very popular, because it is DR/- and not DR/armour.
That said, I have just discovered that my group, thanks to some chopping and changing, will contain two complete beginners at Pathfinder. Given this, I am going to have to 'play it straight' at least until they have the hang of the game before suggesting that we try the new ideas, so I will have to shelve them for now.