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Looking at it logically, the number of uses for a spell component pouch should be about 5, since it cost 5 gp and each component is a bit less than 1gp in worth. So a new rule for Pathfinder 2e should be that the pouch is completely expended after 5 spells with unpriced M components.
Do I expect this rule to actually happen? It would actually put some vague form of minor hinderance on spellcasters, almost universally considered the most powerful characters in the game. So....probably not.
Blech. So at 1st level, when casters are weakest, they'll have to spend a little more of their precious cash so they've got a couple of pouches and don't run out of components if they get the chance to regain spells without a trip to the market.
At high levels and for longer trips, you'll fill a Bag of Holding with 20 or 30 of them and wear two or three at once so you don't run out in a fight. The cost is negligible. It's just a hassle keeping track of them. The hindrance is negligible, except for the annoyance factor.
Then they'll add a Minor Wondrous item: Inexhaustable Spell Pouch for something less than a thousand gold. The people who get irritated with tracking the numbers will get one. The real min-maxers won't, since it'll be cheaper, at least in the short term to keep using the 5gp ones.
And by the way: "each component is a bit less than 1gp"? A pinch of sand? A bit of cobweb? Seriously?
All are defined to be less than one gp or they'd have a price given. Some are much, often very much less.
The problem is you are comparing dragon scales and devils blood to sand and cobwebs. Seriously?
Looking at it logically, the number of uses for a spell component pouch should be about 5, since it cost 5 gp and each component is a bit less than 1gp in worth.
I would actually consider a limitation on its number of uses to be pretty sensible, though 5 seems like too few. 1 GP is the maximum cost of these components but its just as possible for them to be 1 CP. Going with a silver as the average, I could see a single pouch having 50 uses actually (I mean hey, you get 20 arrows for 1 GP or 100 for 5. Seems reasonable).
But what the rules are doing is pretty much setting the tone for your world when you may not want it that way.
In my games you won't find dragon scales just laying around every corner because dragons themselves are legendary.
If you want to homebrew a setting, then have at it, but you're obviously going to need to make some alterations. The rules do set a tone for your world, whether you want it to or not.
For example, if you want to say that magic is extremely rare, then you're going to need to do a lot of modification, because the default rules do not assume this to be the case. It's not the system's fault if it doesn't line up with a homebrew setting though. That's a change made at your prerogative, and you will need to deal with modifying things appropriately.
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...The same logic can be applied to taking a crap, as others have mentioned.As a GM I generally tell players when their SC-pouch is running low (usually after a long adventure, or a couple of shorter quests), and they go get a new one at ye olde magice shoppe.
But I actually think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to assign a number of uses to the pouch, just like ammunition, or the uses in a healer's kit. If the uses are spent, all component using spells have 25% failure chance, and once they failed, the player can't cast them unless he can either retrieve the component elsewhere or refills his pouch.
That way you would have a fairly realistic but still intuitive way to track your minor material components that doesn't require the player to track every single material component in the game.A lot of people have made mention of asking their players to buy new spell component pouches...
The thing costs 5 gp. This expenditure is irrelevant by level 3 if not level 2.
So is refilling your quiver of arrows, unless you only use magical ones.
It's a roleplaying matter, not balance.
Actually you are supposed to track arrows and any other ammunition. An archer can blow through a quiver of arrows in a heartbeat.
Do you charge Gunslingers for their bullets?
I never said you shouldn't track bullets, arrows, bolts, darts, or sling bullets. These end up including lots of magical ammunition at mid level and are a significant expenditure (especially bullets/cartridges).
I just don't see how charging a wizard 5 gp (less than half the cost of scribing a 1st level spell) once in a while enhances roleplaying in any way. If you run the whole thing as a shopping trip, then that is just a waste of game time. There are much better
And there are some who don't like the current rules and that's what this thread is about. Now if you want to start a thread about how great it is then by all means.
How come you guys don't just play those games since you seem to miss them so much?Because some of us like Pathfinder and would like to see the things we don't particularly like about it change, or is the only way we can like Pathfinder is to accept all it's flaws and never push for change?
As others have said, change the system too much, and it's not Pathfinder anymore. Not that I'm saying this is "too much".
I am wondering why you've ignored the obvious fixes. Assign those components a cost or change them. You've ignored everyone who's said this so far unless I missed it, in which case sorry.
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Pay attention. I was specifically responding to a proposal suggesting spell component pouches be limited to 5 uses. There was no mention of that only applying to exotic components. Apparently you could get 5 rare black dragon scales or 5 pinches of sand for 5gp.
I don't think it's too unfair, given that it is Schrodinger's pouch - it always has exactly the right component left inside for those 5 uses, no matter what it happens to be.
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Wizard Entitlement Syndrome
Otherwise known as the rules.
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No, the current version is a 5 gp bag of holding with an infinite number each of an infinite variety of items, some as mundane as a pinch of sand, some as exotic as a demon's eye.
Would you allow a martial character to buy a 200 gp "bag o' stuff" from which he could, at any time, produce any item valued at less than 50 gp ?
Actually, I just came up with a moneymaking scheme using the RAW spell component pouch. Research a spell that uses 1 sp as its component. Pull 1 sp out of the pouch. Don't cast the spell. Repeat until the WBL fairies simply decide its easier to kill you than to haul away all that damned silver.
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And no one has yet given an explanation beyond "I dun like it/it doesn't make logical sense" why that's a bad thing.
Just out of curiousity, what spell requires demon eyes as a unpriced component? That's the only one that really bothers me (although some demons do have an awful lot of eyes...)
Good question.
Something else I've noticed is that some spells have M components but no listed components. I theorize these spells are new to Pathfinder (or maybe 3.5) and don't have the history of M components being passed on to them. Example.
Another absurd component from Iron Body...
"...a piece of iron from an iron golem, a hero's armor, or a war machine"
A war machine.
A war machine.
Edit: I imagine they mean like a sliver of wood from a catapult... but I am picturing a wizard pulling out a catapult wheel. Also, not sure how that thematically connects to iron body...
I think is still has to be iron, but a shaving from a catapult wheel or a nail should work. But the idea of a spell component with a negligible cost but a significant weight is actually fairly interesting...Another absurd component from Iron Body...
"...a piece of iron from an iron golem, a hero's armor, or a war machine"
A war machine.
A war machine.
Edit: I imagine they mean like a sliver of wood from a catapult... but I am picturing a wizard pulling out a catapult wheel. Also, not sure how that thematically connects to iron body...
That makes sense... "...a piece of iron from an iron golem, a hero's armor, or a war machine" and not "...a piece of iron from an iron golem, a hero's armor, or a war machine"
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You do realize we aren't talking about RAW anymore and yet you continue to bring it up. We are all aware of the RAW, we are now talking about the stupidity of it.
No, you keep calling it stupid because you have changed the rules and it doesn't fit your set of rules.
If you are going to change the occurrence of things, such as dragons, then you need to go through and change the occurrence of spells and magic items that need scales or blood or eyeballs of those things.
In Golarian dragons and other creatures are common so their body parts are used for spell components. In your world they aren't, so you should change what creatures supply spell components.
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Yes. And I might not play a caster. (Though I have played a witch in a "No writing/no scrolls" world that came close to that.)
With that limitation chances are I too would never play a caster.
I can see the role playing opportunity. I can also see it becoming a hassle that gets in the way of the other role playing we want to do."At last, we've found the lair of our arch nemesis. We must attack before he sacrifices the princess."
"Actually, I've got this cool new spell, but I need a component only found in a swamp a week's journey in the other direction. Can we delay the whole rescue thing while I go get some?"In a game where the problem is how to motivate the party to do things, I can see it working. In a game where they've already got plenty to do, it's just a distraction.
Also, since the components for each spell weren't designed with that in mind, the risk/reward ratio may be hard to get right. Is it worth tracking down the powerful monster, just to get access to a weak spell? Is the monster far too dangerous at the level where the spell would be most useful? Or too trivial to be a challenge when the spell becomes available.?
I brought up the similar point yet that never seems to be addressed by those who want every component to have a cost. House ruling that everything has a cost yet not factoring it into the making of adventures after the house rules go into effect.
"Sorry Dm we really would like to make sure that comatose demon lord never wakes up. Except we can't because we have to go to some god forsaken in the middle of nowhere place to get the component we need to make the special potion needed. What's that we have a time limit. Well that's just too bad we decided not to have the entire party commit suicide through tpk because you made it so damn hard and expensive to find the components we need."
Thing is, after even a single successful adventure, a 5-use limit per pouch won't really be a big deal, money-wise. And on that first adventure, you're gonna be reduced to flinging ineffectual cantrips way before you get beyond the uses of even a couple of pouches.
This is much worse than you realize. Five wizard cantrips have material components.
I hope he doesn't continue to let his opinion influence the actual rules of the game.Irony.
maybe the age are making his issues, maybe endrophausy, maybe the weather... but the opinions made form him before were too weird!!!
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Not only do I not enforce tracking of no-cost material components, I'd allow for use of different components that are more thematically fitting for the character, culture, and tradition of magic involved.
Because not every wizard that wants to cast fireball wants to touch bat poop.
It's gross. Because you're touching poop.
Ew.
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Not only do I not enforce tracking of no-cost material components, I'd allow for use of different components that are more thematically fitting for the character, culture, and tradition of magic involved.
Because not every wizard that wants to cast fireball wants to touch bat poop.
It's gross. Because you're touching poop.
Ew.
+1; this thread inspired me to write up a paragraph on this for my house rules document.
A pinch of sulfur, blood of a hell hound, pebble from the plane of fire, etc., etc., would all be suitable for fireball. None of them need to be tracked.
I really do not have a problem with a limited number of uses for a material component pouch. But I would like to suggest that the "5-use limit" is too few for items that the designers said were negligible cost items. 1GP is not a negligible cost. So I would say the number of uses should be higher.
Just a thought.
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Has anyone touched on expendible pouches potentially killing swiping/sundering an enemy spellcaster's pouch as a tactic yet?
If they've got five stashed around their body...
It just seems like this houserule to limit wizards might just lead to practices that remove one of their built-in vulnerabilities.
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You know, I just noticed that Infernal Healing's material component is not JUST "1 drop of devil blood"...
"Components V, S, M (1 drop of devil blood or 1 dose of unholy water)"
I'm not sure what a "dose" is, but considering that curse water is a pretty common spell, I think it's not too hard to imagine that a tiny vial of unholy water wouldn't be too expensive. Especially if it's only a couple of drops that you need.
I am wondering why you've ignored the obvious fixes. Assign those components a cost or change them. You've ignored everyone who's said this so far unless I missed it, in which case sorry.
I'm assuming because that would be more work for him, whereas he clearly wants the extra work to be performed by his players.
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And there are some who don't like the current rules and that's what this thread is about. Now if you want to start a thread about how great it is then by all means.
You started a thread in the general discussion forum asking how people handle material components. You should expect a broad range of opinions, including "I play it the way the CRB says and it's just great."
It's extremely easy to add houserules if plentiful dragon scales don't make sense in your campaign. Would it be nice to see a variant rule somewhere that assists in this process? Sure, why not, sounds like something that could have gone in Ultimate Magic. Should the current default rules be changed? Probably not - I expect it would go the way of the encumbrance rules and arrow counting and be largely handwaved or ignored.
Note: This is pretty much identical to my stance on alignment restrictions, which I dislike but which I understand still have enough of a following that getting rid of them should probably be in "supported variant" territory.
Here's a question. We saw the list of costly components. How many spells have hard-to-find no-cost components, or even open-ended components like "a bit of what you want to turn into"? We've got the polymorph set and Infernal Healing. Anything else?
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I am wondering why you've ignored the obvious fixes. Assign those components a cost or change them. You've ignored everyone who's said this so far unless I missed it, in which case sorry.I'm assuming because that would be more work for him, whereas he clearly wants the extra work to be performed by his players.
That, or he refuses to be satisfied by anything less than the Devs rebuilding the entire system in ShallowsoulFinder. It does seem like of his threads complaining about a given rule/mechanic inevitably boil down to "this rule is incompatible with my homebrew setting and weird house rules, so the Devs should change it."
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Another absurd component from Iron Body...
"...a piece of iron from an iron golem, a hero's armor, or a war machine"
A war machine.
A war machine.
Edit: I imagine they mean like a sliver of wood from a catapult... but I am picturing a wizard pulling out a catapult wheel. Also, not sure how that thematically connects to iron body...
Jim Rhodes called. He's asking me why all these groupies in robes and pointy hats keep trying to steal his suit.
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Not only do I not enforce tracking of no-cost material components, I'd allow for use of different components that are more thematically fitting for the character, culture, and tradition of magic involved.
Because not every wizard that wants to cast fireball wants to touch bat poop.
It's gross. Because you're touching poop.
Ew.
Wizards who give a damn about not touching guano are called sorcerers.
Or Glitterdust, requiring a handful of gold dust. Really, couldn't you just fling the handful of gold dust for the same effect?
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That, or he refuses to be satisfied by anything less than the Devs rebuilding the entire system in ShallowsoulFinder. It does seem like of his threads complaining about a given rule/mechanic inevitably boil down to "this rule is incompatible with my homebrew setting and weird
house rules, so the Devs should change it."
Pretty much. While also expecting the majority of the replies to the thread to validate his position. Its gotten to the point where it happens so often that his thread are starting to resemble one another.
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it was the heat of the argue lady, we´re civilized people (if dont, we´re just dont talking with no one here :P)
now we can´t know what the message says!!
Or Glitterdust, requiring a handful of gold dust. Really, couldn't you just fling the handful of gold dust for the same effect?
Actually, that's the flavor of a lot of spells with material components - the spell is just a really exaggerated version of something you can do physically with those materials. Lightning Bolt I think it is, that has a glass rod and wool? Great substances for making a static charge. Bat Guano? Flammable.
My flavor houserule is that a spell component pouch is filled with a special alchemical mixture in powdered form, a good sized pinch of which can be used to power any spell that doesn't have a listed price for the material components.
The listed (inexpensive) material components for spells are, basically, the old way of doing things that have almost completely fallen out of common practice since the discovery of the "Magic Powder" but can be used in a situation where a wizard is deprived his component pouch but, depending on what the item is, might not be readily available or cheap at the local magic shop.
Since I don't like the "unlimited" flavor, I also houserule in a 20 charges per pouch rule for low levels (I stop making the players keep up with mundane ammunition around level 3 or so).