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Stonelord Paladin


Advice


Need help on a dwarf Stonelord Paladin.

(1) Is this paladin archetype worth player? Or should I go with the Barbarian Invaluable Rager build since they are sort of similar?

(2) What feats and stats do you suggest?

At moment I'm looking at stats of (racial) -
STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14(+2), INT 8, WIS 12(+2), CHA 13(-2)
20 point buy.

I really have no idea on what feats to go with and if I want the stats where I have them.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

my advice is to play the paladin and wing it, take whatever you feel like. No need to follow someone else's character guidelines, play your own.


You lose alot of the "iconic" Paladin abilities with Stonelord, but if you don't try comparing it to Smite Evil builds, I think the swap outs offer some very intriguing options.

The defensive stance abilities seem interesting, and the earth elemental companion could have tons of flexible value to a party (tho it will always be an underpowered combatant)

Featwise, I would go with Sundering feats to try to make the most of your Stonestrike, and maybe some of the dwarven feats that improve your saves (since you won't have divine grace).

::shrug::

Andoran

You can pretty much forego Charisma altogether with the Stonelord. The only thing that burning those 7 stat points got you was one extra use of Lay on Hands. I'd move those stat points into STR and CON and pick up Extra Lay on Hands if you really feel like you need the uses.
Definitely look at picking up a reach weapon to maximize the effectiveness of your Defensive Stance, preferably paired up with a close melee weapon that you can use with your hands full, like a Dwarven Boulder Helmet. You'll also want to grab the Mercy that allows you to remove fatigue as soon as possible so you can drop your Defensive Stance, reposition yourself on the battlefield, LoH to remove your fatigue, and then resume your Defensive Stance.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Look at using the Dwarven Dorn-Dergar. It allows you to have a weapon that you can use as either a reach or regular weapon. Taking Darting Viper allows you to very quickly shift it from normal to reach (swift action), and Dorn-Dergar Mastery will let you wield it one-handed, thus allowing you to have a shield and a reach weapon. Plus, you are using a ball and chain as a weapon which is pretty sweet.

I would suggest keeping CHA at 10 post-racial mods max. It really doesn't give you anything except extra Lay on Hands usage, which shouldn't be all that necessary considering the Stonelord's improved armor and DR. Maybe use those extra points to perhaps bump up Dex a bit, as your Reflex save is going to be hurting without Divine Grace. A bit extra Dex would also be required if you go for Dorn-Dergar Mastery, or help if you want to pack a bow so you don't have to leave Defensive Stance to get long-range enemies. If not Dex, Str or Con is the way to go.

I second the suggestion of getting Steel Soul (the feat MC Templar was talking about), and possibly the Dwarven trait that also increases the bonus for Hardy (the name of which escapes me). With those, you can just about make up for the loss of Divine Grace for your saves.


Should I look at and grab feats that would help the elemental?
If so, which?

Have never played a pet class before. I'm worried about running out of feats.


There really are no feats to help the elemental, it grows to a specific size at a specific level, and if you open up the Bestiary and peruse the stats, each level it goes up, it still seems underpowered and fragile.

So, in combat, it should stay behind you until the battle is in full pitch, then it should help out... until it gets to large size, than let it use it's reach to fight from second rank.

If you are using stonestrike to sunder away enemy armor and shields, it should be able to hit reasonably well.

It's main value is as a scout that can travel through walls and floors with ease. This is tactically priceless in your average dungeon crawl.

Cheliax

Scaevola77 wrote:

Look at using the Dwarven Dorn-Dergar. It allows you to have a weapon that you can use as either a reach or regular weapon. Taking Darting Viper allows you to very quickly shift it from normal to reach (swift action), and Dorn-Dergar Mastery will let you wield it one-handed, thus allowing you to have a shield and a reach weapon. Plus, you are using a ball and chain as a weapon which is pretty sweet.

I would suggest keeping CHA at 10 post-racial mods max. It really doesn't give you anything except extra Lay on Hands usage, which shouldn't be all that necessary considering the Stonelord's improved armor and DR. Maybe use those extra points to perhaps bump up Dex a bit, as your Reflex save is going to be hurting without Divine Grace. A bit extra Dex would also be required if you go for Dorn-Dergar Mastery, or help if you want to pack a bow so you don't have to leave Defensive Stance to get long-range enemies. If not Dex, Str or Con is the way to go.

I second the suggestion of getting Steel Soul (the feat MC Templar was talking about), and possibly the Dwarven trait that also increases the bonus for Hardy (the name of which escapes me). With those, you can just about make up for the loss of Divine Grace for your saves.

Glory of Old is the trait you're thinking of.

Also, I'm totally going to build one of these guys right now, because that sounds like a totally fun and flavorful character. :)


Seranov wrote:
Also, I'm totally going to build one of these guys right now, because that sounds like a totally fun and flavorful character. :)

Can you let me know what type of build and feats you'll go with?

I would like to try this archetype out and I have a idea for a background for this type of character. Just no real idea on how to make him a effective character.

Cheliax

Pretty standard fare, though I found getting Dorn-Dergar Mastery to be really cost-prohibitive (you need 15 Dex, which really takes a lot away from your ability to get a bunch of Str and Con, with half-decent Int and Wis) but Darting Viper is totally reachable.

I ended up with
Str 17 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 12 Cha 8
for stats, using 20 PB, and the Defensive Strategist and Glory of Old traits. Then I grabbed Power Attack (though Combat Expertise might be a nifty alternative) and you can grab Darting Viper at level 5.

I also think that if you really wanted to get Dorn-Dergar Mastery, it might be worth taking a 2-level Ranger dip to grab Two-Weapon Fighting without pre-reqs.


Thanks,
I might go with something like that. Probably only buy my STR up to 16, put those extra points into CON so it'd also end up at a 16 after racial.

Cheliax

Threw him together because I figured why not: Wodin Earthborn, Dwarven Stonelord.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I agree, the Dex requirement for Dorn-Dergar Mastery is somewhat prohibitive for a paladin. However, now I am envisioning a TWF Dwarven ranger dual-wielding Dorn-Dergars in a mad flurry of chains.

Cheliax

...That does sound pretty hilariously awesome. Even if you'd take huge penalties because they're one-handed weapons AT BEST with Dorn-Dergar Mastery.

Andoran

I saw a build in PFS where they had a Stonelord who specialized in Two-Weapon fighting with throwing hammers or something similar... It was fairly silly but surprisingly effective. The STR bonus for Defensive Stance carries over to ranged thrown weapons and it doesn't matter that you get stuck in place.

Cheliax

Ssalarn wrote:
I saw a build in PFS where they had a Stonelord who specialized in Two-Weapon fighting with throwing hammers or something similar... It was fairly silly but surprisingly effective. The STR bonus for Defensive Stance carries over to ranged weapons and it doesn't matter that you get stuck in place.

If you've got the Dex for doing TWF, then it could totally work.

I wish I could see that guy's build, though, it sounds fun, too.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A reach weapon would counter some of the problems with Defensive Stance. You would have proficiency with the longhammer and longaxe anyway. Standard longhammer + helmet equipage and you would be pretty good.

I've looked at the archetype closely, and I notice that you get ONE mercy at level six. All of the others are replaced by something, but you do get that one. If you get the mercy that removes fatigue, you can get rid of a lot of the penalty from Defensive Stance. You can drop it, lay on hands, and then move up to attack, activating Defensive Stance the next turn, or even on the same turn probably.

A sunder build that ignores hardness would be pretty cool. I also like that the elemental gets the celestial template, meaning IT gets smite evil, even if you don't.


What you need to remember to do is take the 3rd level mercy to remove fatigue (this is the only mercy not replaced by the other class features). This way you can get into your stance, take some hits, get out of your stance (becoming fatigued), lay on hands w/ the remove fatigue mercy, healing yourself and then moving and going into your stance again. Rinse/repeat as many times as you can during the day.

The other thing I did w/ my stonelord was take variant channeling so that instead of healing the silly elemental, I went with the protection channeling since I worshiped a god who had that domain.

Variant Channeling Protection:
Protection: Heal—Creatures gain a channel bonus to Armor Class until the end of your next turn. Harm—Creatures gain a channel penalty to Armor Class until the end of your next turn.

Starting out I was using a 1-handed weapon and a shield, then I as soon as I could get the dorn-dergar master, I went with shield and dorn-dergar. I also agree that you take glory of old trait and steel soul feat.

Andoran

ub3r_n3rd wrote:
What you need to remember to do is take the 3rd level mercy to remove fatigue (this is the only mercy not replaced by the other class features).

You don't gain a Mercy until 6th level... But otherwise, yeah.

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, the Dorn-Dergar or another reach weapon handles a lot of the problems with being unable to move (and the Fatigue Mercy at level 6 will further alleviate that problem), and Glory of Old + Steel Soul sounds like a fantastic plan.

I was thinking something like

1 Power Attack
3 Combat Expertise
5 Darting Viper
7 Steel Soul
9 Improved Sunder
11 Extra Lay on Hands

It's not really anything super crazy powerful, but it should work pretty well. You'll be tanky and able to do some decent damage, which makes this guy great as a frontliner for parties, especially if you can plant yourself in a chokepoint.


Ssalarn wrote:
ub3r_n3rd wrote:
What you need to remember to do is take the 3rd level mercy to remove fatigue (this is the only mercy not replaced by the other class features).
You don't gain a Mercy until 6th level... But otherwise, yeah.

Yes, that's right I wrote down 6th the first time I wrote it and then went back and looked at the normal paladin mercies and thought i had erred. I forgot that you have to wait to 6th level to get the normal 3rd level mercy because of the other stonelord abilities.

Thanks for catching that mess up.

Andoran

So here's a slightly-to-the-side-but-still-basically-on-topic question:
Can a Stonelord take the Extra Mercy feat at 3rd level, or would he have to wait until after 6th level since that's the first time he actually gains a Mercy?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I wanted to take advantage of the helmet feats in the Advanced Race Guide as well, so this is what I've come up with:

Dwarven paladin (stonelord)

Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 8

1 Hard-Headed
2
3 Power Attack
4
5 Improved Sunder
6 Mercy: Fatigue
7 Greater Sunder
8 Defensive Power: Halting Blow
9 Dented Helm
10
11 Cloven Helm
12 Defensive Power: Unexpected Strike

Get yourself a longhammer and an adamantine helmet and enjoy yourself. By the time you get to level six for the mercy, you can lay on hands 2/day, which means a pretty easy movement. If you want more, just reduce wisdom for a bit more charisma.

Cheliax

Ssalarn wrote:

So here's a slightly-to-the-side-but-still-basically-on-topic question:

Can a Stonelord take the Extra Mercy feat at 3rd level, or would he have to wait until after 6th level since that's the first time he actually gains a Mercy?

Almost positive that he'd have to wait until level 6. Like 99.9% sure.


Seranov wrote:

Yeah, the Dorn-Dergar or another reach weapon handles a lot of the problems with being unable to move (and the Fatigue Mercy at level 6 will further alleviate that problem), and Glory of Old + Steel Soul sounds like a fantastic plan.

I was thinking something like

1 Power Attack
3 Combat Expertise
5 Darting Viper
7 Steel Soul
9 Improved Sunder
11 Extra Lay on Hands

It's not really anything super crazy powerful, but it should work pretty well. You'll be tanky and able to do some decent damage, which makes this guy great as a frontliner for parties, especially if you can plant yourself in a chokepoint.

This is a decent build if you want to just use the Dorn-Dergar as a 2h weapon and add more damage to your build. I don't know if I'd go with the ELOH at 11th, but for the most part looks pretty good.

Cheliax

Yeah, that was mostly because I figured the extra healing couldn't hurt. Replacing it with Greater Sunder or something like that probably wouldn't be so bad, either.


Seranov wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

So here's a slightly-to-the-side-but-still-basically-on-topic question:

Can a Stonelord take the Extra Mercy feat at 3rd level, or would he have to wait until after 6th level since that's the first time he actually gains a Mercy?
Almost positive that he'd have to wait until level 6. Like 99.9% sure.

100% sure...

Stoneblood:

At 3rd level, a stonelord's vitals begin to calcify and her blood transforms into liquid stone. She adds her paladin level on checks to stabilize at negative hit points and gains a 25% chance to ignore a critical hit or precision damage. This does not stack with fortification armor or similar effects.

At 9th level, this chance increases to 50% and she becomes immune to petrification.

At 15th level, this chance increases to 75% and she becomes immune to bleed and blood drain effects.

This ability replaces divine health and her mercies gained at 3rd, 9th, and 15th level.

So the ONLY mercy you can take is at 6th level so you can pick from one of the 6th level mercies or one of the 3rd level at this point. Just grab the 3rd level and you'll be happy with it!

Andoran

ub3r_n3rd wrote:
Seranov wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

So here's a slightly-to-the-side-but-still-basically-on-topic question:

Can a Stonelord take the Extra Mercy feat at 3rd level, or would he have to wait until after 6th level since that's the first time he actually gains a Mercy?
Almost positive that he'd have to wait until level 6. Like 99.9% sure.

100% sure...

** spoiler omitted **

So the ONLY mercy you can take is at 6th level so you can pick from one of the 6th level mercies or one of the 3rd level at this point. Just grab the 3rd level and you'll be happy with it!

Oh right, I just wasn't 100% on whether you'd be able to grab the Extra Mercy feat any sooner than 7th, since your individual mercies are traded out, but you still have the class feature. I was just thinking it could change the viability of certain builds if you could grab Extra Mercy sooner. In re-reading the rules on archetypes though, it seems pretty clear that you don't count as having the Mercy class feature until 6th level and thus aren't eligible for the feat until then.


@Ssalarn - Yep, you need to get to 6th level before you can even get a mercy, after that I think if you take the feat to get extra mercies you can do so. At least that's how I read it and would rule on it if I was GM'ing the game with a Stonelord Paladin in it.


I get confused on this. How many LoH would the stone lord have with a 8 CHA at levels 2 and 4?


Lay On Hands (Su):
: Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.

1/2 paladin level + CHA mod

Level 2 w/ 8 Cha (-2) = 1/2 of 2 = 1 + (-1) = 0
Level 4 w/ 8 Cha (-2) = 1/2 of 4 = 2 + (-1) = 1

With your OP and the 13 Cha being +1 you get:
Level 2 : 1 + 1 = 2
Level 4 : 2 + 1 = 3

So I'd never go below 10 CHA if I wanted to do at least 1 LOH at level 2...

Cheliax

Yeah, that's one of the downsides of having a low Charisma, but honestly, it's a worthwhile trade in my opinion.

The Stonelord is less about healing up any damage he takes and more about never taking that damage in the first place. :)

Also, on second thought, I don't know how much good Combat Expertise will do you, because if you tank up too much, things will choose to ignore you. I may just drop his Int to 12 and bump Dex to 13, and grab Combat Reflexes instead, in order to keep stuff from running past you.


The thing you need to remember with Stonelord though is that you need a few LOH to heal yourself up and remove the fatigue condition when you get the 3rd level mercy at level 6. If you have only one or two uses, then it really limits you from being able to Stance Dance!

I don't think Combat Expertise is a good choice at all, but upping Dex a bit and adding in Combat Reflexes to be able to AOO with that reach weapon is a great idea. Make things come at you more and do your job as a tank. You want them to be attacking you and not your allies, this is another reason why more LOH through the better CHA bonus are a good idea so that you aren't making the healer (if you have one) work on healing over much.


Matt2VK wrote:
Need help on a dwarf Stonelord Paladin..

What are you looking for your character to do?

I seem to recall someone discussing one with the dwarven cleave feats

James

Cheliax

I agree, I just couldn't weasel any extra points to fit into Cha.

I also absolutely need 12 Int and Wis on this guy, because I once played a 7 Int and Wis Archer Paladin, and while he was fun (I played him as Forest Gump with a bow) I don't think I could ever manage that again.

I have since gone for Combat Reflexes, and even though that's only 2 AoOs, it'll give him some definite ability to make sure things don't end up running past him.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For some reason I thought there was a minimum on lay on hands, but it looks like you want at least a 10 charisma, and maybe a 12 if possible. Extra Lay on Hands is also an option if you have the space.

Silver Crusade

Planning the following Stonelord , basically an AoO build adding reach and some bonus AC when im getting pounded by hard hitters

STR :17
DEX :14
CON :17
INT :10
WIS :10
CHA :10

1st : Combat Reflexes
3rd : Stand Still
4th : +1 Strength
5th : Shield of Swings (+4AC for half damage)
6th : Mercy (fatugue)
7th : Lunge
8th : +1 Constitution

Dwarvern Long Hammer 2d6 Damage is the incentive , and 15ft reach at 7th
Will buy potions of invigorate till get Mercy at 6th

forgive me for asking , there is mention of dwarvern boulder helmets , how specifically does this help when having a primary reach weapon ?


The dwarven boulder helmet lets you threaten adjacent square because it is a weapon you need no hands for.

The Problem with the stonelord is that the archetype gives up the paladins mount (a rather strong feature) and replaces it with the stone servant which is too squishy to be really useful and which only understands terran, forcing the stonelord to spend one of his few skill points on it. Assuming int 10.


Stonelord Paladin is almost a completely different class, and while they are not as effective as a vanilla Paladin, they are really cool.

I built one some time ago and was surprised by how interesting the archetype is. If you're interested in checking out my build, you can find it here. I built him at levels 1, 3, 6 and 10 and included a few notes about its abilities and favored tactics at each level.

Hope that helps.


Matt2VK wrote:

Need help on a dwarf Stonelord Paladin.

(1) Is this paladin archetype worth player? Or should I go with the Barbarian Invaluable Rager build since they are sort of similar?

(2) What feats and stats do you suggest?

At moment I'm looking at stats of (racial) -
STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14(+2), INT 8, WIS 12(+2), CHA 13(-2)
20 point buy.

I really have no idea on what feats to go with and if I want the stats where I have them.

They are cool. Far more sustainable.

Power Attack, Steel Soul, Radiant Charge (can fill the role of smite), Extra Lay on Hands

Radiant Charge
When you charge, you do so with the power of faith.
Prerequisite: Lay on hands class feature.
Benefit: When you hit with a charge attack, you can expend all of your remaining uses of lay on hands to deal extra damage equal to 1d6 per use of lay on hands expended + your Charisma bonus. This damage comes from holy power and is not subject to damage reduction, energy immunities, or energy resistances.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am the DM in a game with a player running a Stonelord and he rocks! (get it?)

Anyway, he went with Tower Shield and basically the Dwarven Defender route. So he wades into combat and the party let's the bad guys break on him and then get into position. It works really well and at low and now mid levels most of the bad guys need natural 20's to hit him his AC is so good.

His earth elemental companion is nice, but really iffy in battle due to his low hit points and the fact that he just doesn't measure up as much as many companions or even summoned creatures at that level. What he does great is reconnaissance due to his earth glide and flank also due to his earth glide. I would have a chat with the DM first and see how he will rule the earth glide and the means of the elemental to understand his surroundings and be able to relay this back to his boss.

The interesting note is that the party all learned Terran as their official language to speak and they have developed tactics around the Stonelord and his companion. Give it a try and I think you will like it.

Also, I will second the notion that Charisma gives the Stonelord almost no benefit so drop it and get the strength or constitution higher.


Scaevola77 wrote:
However, now I am envisioning a TWF Dwarven ranger dual-wielding Dorn-Dergars in a mad flurry of chains.

I did this in a RotR campaign that I am just about to finish up, and let me tell you... it was awesome!

RotR has lots of giants, so I was whirling 2 Giant-Bane dorn-dergars, with huge FE:Giants bonuses, and the full line of Twin Thunders feats! It was insane, specifically for that campaign.

I find dwarves fun to play and at the outset of the campaign my decision came down to "should I play a Stonelord or a Dwarf ranger?" so I can very much relate.

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