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If you use the improved familiar feat to get a celestial/fiendish version of an ordinary familiar do you still get the bonuses associated with that familiar. For instance would a fiendish cat still give the +3 on stealth rolls or a fiendish fox +2 to reflex saves or do the fiendish versions give nothing at all?
No, a Cat familiar gives you +3 on Stealth rolls. A Fiendish Cat familiar is just a fiendish cat.
Improved Familiar is a powerful feat, but using it to get a templated animal is a waste of time.
I believe you would still get the bonuses.
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What makes you ask this? The wording of the familiar bonuses rule doesn't mention anything about specific templates the familiar has, so what leads you to believe the "Improved Familiar" feat would effectively make a familiar worse?
(This is not snark... I'm wondering if I've missed something that causes you to wonder.)
The improved familiar feat says that if you choose a familiar from the standard lists they gain either the celestial or fiendish template. That is where that comes from. However, none of the other familiars on the improved familiars list (such as mephit, imp, psuedodragon, etc..) have any bonuses listed presumably because they have all kinds of other powers. That is why I wanted to know if the celestial/fiendish versions of the ordinary familiars still gave their bonuses because if not, as mplindustries said, it is just a waste of time to take them.
The improved familiar feat says that if you choose a familiar from the standard lists they gain either the celestial or fiendish template. That is where that comes from.
I'm not seeing that line in the feat.
Is the website wrong? As far as I was aware, you were just choosing from a different chart, not choosing from a different chart or choosing from the original chart and adding a template.
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On the Pathfinder PRD here:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html
There is a little superscript 1 by Celetial Hawk and a superscript 2 by the Fiendish Viper. At the bottom of the table the superscripts are explained by
1 Or other celestial animal from the standard familiar list.
2 Or other fiendish animal from the standard familiar list.
Doesn't that mean you can take a creature off of the standard familiar list as a celestial/fiendish version of that familiar?
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The improved familiar feat says that if you choose a familiar from the standard lists they gain either the celestial or fiendish template. That is where that comes from.I'm not seeing that line in the feat.
Is the website wrong? As far as I was aware, you were just choosing from a different chart, not choosing from a different chart or choosing from the original chart and adding a template.
Under the table in the original feat description is says this:
1 Or other celestial animal from the standard familiar list.
2 Or other fiendish animal from the standard familiar list.
This implies that you can substitute any standard familiar animal for the one listed in the table.
I'm not sure, now.
I still think it's actually a different animal, since it is a different chart. I think the point of the feat is that you lose the normal benefits and gain these other ones.
That said, even if you do get the base bonus, and I see now that it is ambiguous, adding the Celestial template is not worth a feat. Stick to the normal animal, or get an actually good familiar at 7th.
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I'm not sure, now.
I still think it's actually a different animal, since it is a different chart. I think the point of the feat is that you lose the normal benefits and gain these other ones.
That said, even if you do get the base bonus, and I see now that it is ambiguous, adding the Celestial template is not worth a feat. Stick to the normal animal, or get an actually good familiar at 7th.
I'm playing a witch with the Winter Witch archetype. Often in our game it comes down to whether I or the enemy spell casters go first as to who can shut down the other so I have heavily optimized my initiative. As a Winter Witch the character can only take familiars from the frozen north which means no greensting scorpiion (+4 initiative like a second improved init). However, a Winter Witch can take any improved familiar that doesn't have the fire archetype. So to me if +4 to init is worth spending the feat for improved initiative then it is worth the feat to get improved init for the scorpion IF you still get that bonus.
First, the Compsognathus, Dodo, Greensting Scorpion, and Rhamphorynchus all give +2 to Initiative, not +4.
Second, the Winter Witch archetype states:
"A winter witch who gains the Improved Familiar feat can select any familiar she desires, save for familiars with the fire subtype."
So, that line plus that feat lets you take any familiar at all--it doesn't say "from the Improved Familiar chart." Even if you don't get the initiative bonus from a Celestial Scorpion, you can still just outright choose the base scorpion thanks to that clause there.
Finally, a sincere question:
Do you actually find entering an initiative arms race so you can go first in rocket tag to be fun? That sounds dreadful to me.
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First, the Compsognathus, Dodo, Greensting Scorpion, and Rhamphorynchus all give +2 to Initiative, not +4.
That's been errataed Compy and Greensting both give +4
So, that line plus that feat lets you take any familiar at all--it doesn't say "from the Improved Familiar chart." Even if you don't get the initiative bonus from a Celestial Scorpion, you can still just outright choose the base scorpion thanks to that clause there.
Hmmm...seems to be true. Didn't think of that.
Finally, a sincere question:
Do you actually find entering an initiative arms race so you can go first in rocket tag to be fun? That sounds dreadful to me.
Yeah, it is fun trying to tactically out maneuver the enemies spell for spell. I find that a lot more fun than playing a character who has to count squares along a dozen different paths trying to figure out which way is going to provoke less AoOs and will put me in the best cleaving position, etc.. and finally actually taking my action 20 minutes later.
First, the Compsognathus, Dodo, Greensting Scorpion, and Rhamphorynchus all give +2 to Initiative, not +4.That's been errataed Compy and Greensting both give +4
I'm not finding that FAQ. Can you link it?
I find that a lot more fun than playing a character who has to count squares along a dozen different paths trying to figure out which way is going to provoke less AoOs and will put me in the best cleaving position, etc.. and finally actually taking my action 20 minutes later.
I wouldn't really give that as the alternative. I would think the alternative was "going first doesn't determine who wins the combat." But if you enjoy it, that's great.
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I'm not finding that FAQ. Can you link it?
That's been errataed Compy and Greensting both give +4
It is in the downloadable pdf for the Ultimate Magic book. I would take a screenshot but don't know how to post pictures here or if you can.
I wouldn't really give that as the alternative. I would think the alternative was "going first doesn't determine who wins the combat." But if you enjoy it, that's great.
I was, of course, being a bit hyperbolic lol.
I started gaming in 1982 with the D&D red box set. When I got married and had kids in the mid 90s I stopped gaming and only picked it back up about 8 or 9 months ago. Back then we didn't use minis and have every minute detail of combat spelled out.
Modern games feel way too much like table top war gaming to me than table top role playing. I don't really care for combat in Pathfinder or any of the new systems so that play style suits me. I'm not saying new games are bad because of this just that there are some aspects that aren't my cup of tea. I more enjoy the things that go on between combats.
It isn't that not going first changes the outcome of the combat just that it speeds it up. No clouds from their casters means no 50% miss for my fighters. No glitter dust means my guys aren't blind. No mirror image means my guys don't have smack through half a dozen duplicates before the stupid thing goes down. So for me it is all about getting through combats quicker so that there is more in between time and of course more combats in a single session.
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Hmm, I can't find anything in UM or any of the source material to indicate the Greensting or any of the others give more than a +2 to initiative... Are you sure you have the most recent update?
**EDIT**
Nevermind, there it is:
"Page 117—In the New Familiars table, in the
Greensting Scorpion entry, change “+2” to “+4”."
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> Modern games feel way too much like table top war gaming to me than table top role playing.
Um, that's where D&D started.
You are absolutely right. Started with Chainmail table top war gaming. IMO D&D was an improvement by moving away from that. If you want table top war gaming there are plenty of them still around too. If you want that feel in your RPG that is fine too. Like I said I'm not judging what anyone else does or does not like. Its just not my preference. I love our weekly PF game just some things aren't as enjoyable for me as others.
Once more I'm not slamming PF. I don't think anyone is 100% satisfied with every single aspect of any game system. I do like the feat and skill system in PF, I think that was a huge stroke of genius in 3.0 & 3.5 and that PF has done a great job expanding and honing it.
How did we get away from whether or not a celestial/fiendish version of a regular familiar gets the bonuses. Though thanks to mplindustries I don't think it matters I'm still curious.
I personal think they would get the bonuses.
I believe they would as well.
I see the master bonus as a feature of the base animal that is not stripped by applying an alignment template.
I have trouble understanding why adding a template would take away a base bonus granted by a familiar. Again, taking one of the other familiars (imp, lyrakien, etc) would not grant a bonus becuase they are substantially more powerful than the basic familiars even with a fiendish/celestial template.
However, I do have a question. Why not just take improved initiative? Then again, I guess you could have both imp initiative and a scorpion...not to mention reactionary and the elf alternate racial for another +2. Dang...that's like +12 before you even apply your dex!
Since you could also take improved initiative?
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I have trouble understanding why adding a template would take away a base bonus granted by a familiar. Again, taking one of the other familiars (imp, lyrakien, etc) would not grant a bonus becuase they are substantially more powerful than the basic familiars even with a fiendish/celestial template.
However, I do have a question. Why not just take improved initiative? Then again, I guess you could have both imp initiative and a scorpion...not to mention reactionary and the elf alternate racial for another +2. Dang...that's like +12 before you even apply your dex!
The sorc that I was playing had:
Dex 20 +5Imp Init +4
Wildfire Heart (Alt Ifrit racial trait) +4
Greensting Scorp +4
Reactionary +2
Cracked Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone +1
Anticipate Peril +5
So his init total was +25
If adding an aligned template to a base familiar is acceptable. Then shouldnot elemental templates also be acceptable?
An Ice scorpion sounds mighty tempting.
If adding an aligned template to a base familiar is acceptable. Then shouldnot elemental templates also be acceptable?
An Ice scorpion sounds mighty tempting.
By RAW it's not available as a GM though I could work with it. However I would suggest getting an elemental and simply having it shaped how you like -- I could probably be convinced to let it have some of the creature abilities at level 7 (in addition to the rather powerful elemental abilities and subtype).
A strait elemental is a little too much juice with the adition of creature abilities, while adding a template is just right for preventing power creep and other undesireable efecets as well as adding flavors.
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Is it within the rules to take Improved Familiar to gain the benefits of one of those special familiars but keep the form of a normal animal? For,instance, could a caster keep their Raven familiar but with a faerie dragon stats? Since the familiar is more of a spirit inhabiting an animal this seems to be reasonable and certainly not any additional power.
John
FAQ'd.