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Sticky situation here - we have a player in our local gaming community that has been fairly consistently off-putting to other players. He does not like to abide by the roll of the dice and sometimes 'magics' it to a better number if he doesn't think people are looking. This is not an 'elephant in the room,' nor is it a new issue - people have alerted him to the fact that we are aware of his 'fudging' before, yet it has once again occurred. Coupled with the fact that he has serious risk aversion in choice of tactics (often choosing a 'stay-in-the-back-and-hide' approach, whether playing a cavalier or a cleric) that has been attributed to TPKs, there are members of our otherwise close-knit gaming community that actually refuse to come to game nights where he will be playing.
Obviously, we are not able to ask him not to come anymore - first, we run out of a public space, so we are open to the public, and I imagine it is against PFS rules to start kicking people out. The regular GMs feel like we're up against a bit of a wall here - multiple folks have asked him to stop with the fudging before, yet here we are again. The last big confrontation with him ended with him storming out of a long-running home game. Call me a bleeding heart, but I'd rather not turn a player away - I just want him to shape up!
Any suggestions/advice/anecdotes?
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The hard one. You say others have talked to him, have you? I had a hard to play with, player. I started a conversation with him and explained that his behavior would have to start improving or couldnt play anymore. This was a home game. In PFS, you do have a right to refuse a place at your table if the player is "being a jerk". So, I would recommend you talk to him first. Not saying this is easy, but sometimes the fun of the most must come before the disruption of the one.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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It is within the organizer's power to ask a player to not come anymore, if that is what it comes down to. You need to do what is right for the community to grow. Sometimes you have to cut off tumors to make the body healthier as a whole.
I'd sit him down and tell him specific instances that have caused issues. Give him a last chance. If he's caught cheating again, let him know he's no longer welcome.
There have been similar incidents in the past on these boards, and the leadership has agreed that while its not always the best answer, it is something that can be done.
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A Venture Officer, organizer, or GM needs to have a serious conversation with this player. Cheating should not be tolerated under any circumstances. It's not fair to the other players and compromises the integrity of the game.
If this were one of my players, I would take him aside for a private conversation. It would probably go something like this: "Player, it's been brought to my attention that you are fudging dice rolls. Other players have complained on multiple occasions and it is ruining their PFS experience. While I am glad that you are part of our gaming community I must insist that you stop this behavior immediately. If the fudging continues I'm going to be forced to ask you to not participate in any more of our public events. I hope you can appreciate that we are working hard to build a strong gaming community around PFS and cheating just can't be tolerated. Thank you for understanding." <handshake>
The player may deny the charges or try to argue. Don't let the conversation degrade into an argument. In the event of denial just say something like "Moving forward, just make all of your dice rolls out in the open and in view off the GM and players. That way there can be no confusion about the outcome and no one can accuse you of fudging rolls."
Under no circumstances would I let this behavior continue. Just treat the player with respect and compassion but let him know that cheating will not be tolerated.
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Honestly I have never sat at a table as a player where I didn't catch someone cheating. I normally don't say anything in the interest of table harmony. It's usually fudging die rolls, but sometimes it's with abilities. If I'm a player, and the GM doesn't say anything, I normally feel it's not my place to speak up (although sometimes the words by-pass the brain filter and "How exactly are you doing that?" will shoot out of my mouth).
While I agree with everything Craig Stokes said, I can promise you, you will have an argument from the player. Now Craig is about 6'4" and has hands the size of my head, his arguments tend to be much shorter, if you don't have this going for you, I'd be prepared for an alternative solution. What I would suggest is that you make EVERYONE use high contrast dice roll in the middle of the table (as long as it doesn't interfere with the mini's and map) and not touch it until they've calculated the final number. As a GM you can then start doing the math in your head and keeping track "Okay the Barbarian is +4 to hit, the Ranger has +6 to perception" etc. If some number seems too far out, ask how they're doing the calculations.
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Honestly I have never sat at a table as a player where I didn't catch someone cheating.
Where do you play? Remind me never to visit.
I see people make honest mistakes all the time. Some people have a hard time keeping track of their bonuses when doing the math. Some people just don't understand how a particular rule works. These types of thing happen all the time. As a GM, I sometimes have so much to keep track of that I forget about a monster ability, so the PCs get away with an easier fight than if I'd remembered.
But deliberate cheating? There's one or two players I've suspected of fudging die rolls before, but nothing as widespread as what you're talking about. Usually, when I ask a player how they got to what seems like an outrageously high bonus, they can explain it, because they're really good at optimizing. They're not cheating.
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Ask him to GM. He finally 'get it' when he sees how things are run from the other side.
Rene, doesn't always work.
We had a local player, who everyone caught cheating. Dropping dice off the table, and putting another die up on a 20 while everyone went after the fallen die.
Deliberately abusing powers, using an Encounter as an At Will, or a Daily as an Encounter.
He also did the same thing as a GM. Indeed, a few TPLs were avoided because other GMs were included in his player group, and stopped his mi-use.
He had explained to him the dfifferences in Daily, Encounter and At Will powers multiple times. SOmetimes during the same play session.
It got bad enough that two of the other players actually started the conversation with the store owner to get him banned from our games.
Overall, not fun.
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Cheating can get you permanently kicked from the campaign or have your PC permanently killed. It's well within your right to refuse a player who continues to cheat time and time again. I'd even let Mike Brock know.
Do you really think you'll reform him? Good luck. I would however tell him how he has to act if he wishes to participate in your public games. He has rights... but so does everyone else at the gaming table.
Bottom line: Would you rather make him happy just to make 5-20 other people unhappy? As coordinator, it's your job to make the tough decisions.
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Hey everyone - thanks for the advice.
I haven't actually seen him cheat myself - but another long-running GM at the table did, and it's been a conversation before. While the instance of cheating was at my table, I don't necessarily feel comfortable chastising for something that I didn't see.
Shalafi - The player is early middle age, but questionable maturity - I mean, he's cheating dice at what is basically a story-telling game.
This is a conversation we are having in our little cell of GMs - I just thought I would toss it up on the boards for a sounding-off. Thanks again for the thoughts everyone.
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Where do you play? Remind me never to visit.
All over the country. From New York (Albany and the City) to Florida (from Pensacola to Jacksonville), Alabama (Mobile) to California (San Diego). I've never sat at a table and not seen someone at least fudge die rolls enough to know that it wasn't just a math issue.
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Never is a very strong word. "seldom" or "Almost never" or ... Perhaps you just never remember a game in which you have never not seen someone ... but you get my meaning. Your statement reminds me of the guy who said he had "never played with a Asian player" until we reminded him of a friend of ours we played with every month. Then it became "except for David"...
I started keeping track when I was playing 3.0, so it may have happened before then. Since I've been playing Pathfinder, it's never happened. I've made it a game within a game. I used to keep track of the number of players, now once I have one, I stop keeping track. Still looking for the 1 game where no one does it.
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Ask him to GM. He finally 'get it' when he sees how things are run from the other side.Rene, doesn't always work.
We had a local player, who everyone caught cheating. Dropping dice off the table, and putting another die up on a 20 while everyone went after the fallen die.
Deliberately abusing powers, using an Encounter as an At Will, or a Daily as an Encounter.
He also did the same thing as a GM. Indeed, a few TPLs were avoided because other GMs were included in his player group, and stopped his mi-use.
He had explained to him the dfifferences in Daily, Encounter and At Will powers multiple times. SOmetimes during the same play session.
It got bad enough that two of the other players actually started the conversation with the store owner to get him banned from our games.
Overall, not fun.
I have never run into this that I could not take the player aside and explain to them that "this is a game", "intended to be fun" and "not worth fudging die rolls or openly cheating". In my experience this player is likely to be young, insecure, and lacking in social skills. Making them part of the group, taking them under your wing, mentoring - that kind of crap really works.
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In my experience this player is likely to be young, insecure, and lacking in social skills. Making them part of the group, taking them under your wing, mentoring - that kind of crap really works.
I can give you two out of the three of those, but the player is older than I am (one of the reasons I'm a little reserved about confronting him without my other regular GMs). And in terms of making him part of the group - he's been there for easily over a year, maybe even two, and is one of our most consistent players. Hence why other people (in our 2-table per 2 weeks community) are unwilling to even play.
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In my experience this player is likely to be young, insecure, and lacking in social skills. Making them part of the group, taking them under your wing, mentoring - that kind of crap really works.I can give you two out of the three of those, but the player is older than I am (one of the reasons I'm a little reserved about confronting him without my other regular GMs). And in terms of making him part of the group - he's been there for easily over a year, maybe even two, and is one of our most consistent players. Hence why other people (in our 2-table per 2 weeks community) are unwilling to even play.
I wouldn't let his age discourage you from chatting with him. Age does not equal maturity. If he is causing other people to not want to play then it is imperative that the issue be resolved in one way or another or I fear that your local group will dissipate because of this one guy. I'd rather turn one person away than have others leave willingly because of him. Think of the greater good.
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I have never run into this that I could not take the player aside and explain to them that "this is a game", "intended to be fun" and "not worth fudging die rolls or openly cheating". In my experience this player is likely to be young, insecure, and lacking in social skills. Making them part of the group, taking them under your wing, mentoring - that kind of crap really works.
We tried. No response.
Not young. Not as old as I am, I don't think, but definitely well into his 30s or 40s. Insecure? How do you tell? Lacking in social skills? Isn't that pretty much a given for someone who cheats? Cheating is, by definition, an anti-social skill.
It gets to a point where it is this one player or the whole community. We reached that point. We discussed it with the store owner. We even tried to discuss it with him. Epic fail, that. YMMV.
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Well, you could make a computer program to roll the dice for him or for your game, all these apps for iphones, and everyone has to keep the iphones on the table, only touching them to re-roll.
As for powers used more times than allowed, you could print cards for each time a player can use that power with what the power does printed on the card and each time the cast or use them they have to place them on the table like they are actually playing cards.
But, that will usually make such a dishonest player uncomfortable, since they have now lost their security blanket. The are cheating I guess because they feel the need to be superior? They feel inferior? or do they just have horrible luck with dice? I had a friend who when the sun went down would not roll above a 10 on a d20....
I never cared so much on dice rolls, if need be dont tell him what he needs to roll, have him roll and then simply tell him "miss" or "hit" He may be able to figure out the targets AC after a bit, but its just a solution... if his lowest roll consistently because of this is a 18 or 20.... then that person just wants to be in the lime-light, doing the most damage or achieving the most... then its best you just dont play with that person sadly. These games are about getting together and playing with friends, having a good time and enjoying the experience, if you want to be the loner who takes all the credit there are plenty of those online first person shooter video games for that.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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When VCs and VLs discuss this problem with me, I like to refer them to a quote from the movie Open Range:
In a scene after the youngest member of the group was caught cheating while paying poker.
Boss Spearman: A man's trust is a valuable thing, Button. You don't want to lose it for a hand full of cards.
Replace hand full of cards with rolling dice. As others have advised, the best thing to do is pull the player aside in private, advise him of what has been observed, and offer him the chance to fix the problem in future play. If the player continues along the same path or refuses to change, wish him well, and invite him to start his own game days outside of the ones currently scheduled since your values and his don't line up.
It is better to lose one player this way than it is to drive away numerous players who don't want to play with the individual because they can't get someone who plays fair.