Goblin Squad Member
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I just wanted to suggest this to the developers. I know in the world of MMOs some people think this is blasphemy. But to me its just about personal preference or options. I am not making an argument about if KB/mouse is better than gamepad. So I dont want to get into that, so Id ask that nobody dridge that up please. If you think it sucks, then you dont have to play that way. If you think gamepad useres would be sitting ducks for PvP, then enjoy the easy kills. I dont care.
This conversation is about the ability to be able to use a gamepad as a users choice, and only just that. Sometimes I like to sit at my PC and play more seriously, sometimes I want to sit on my couch with my big screen, and mindlessly craft or what not.
So I would really appreciate some kind of official gamepad support.
But at the minimum, I would at least like the ability to use a gamepad even if unsupported. This has rarely been an issue for me, but I have come accross a few MMOs that have anti-hacking programs like Gameguard, that treat any third party program as a hack and game shuts down.
I wasnt cheating, I was just using a program to map keys to my gamepad and simulate wasd and camera movement. Works with most MMOs just fine.
So if security is so tight that it rules out everything, even harmless programs, then set up official suppport, or allow us to get approval for certain programs.
For a specific example:
I tried to play the open beta for RaiderZ, I used motion joy to recognize my PS3 gamepad, then used Pinnacle Game Profiler to set up a simple control scheme. The game would play for about 10 seconds, before it shut down and gave me a 3rd party usage warning.
The trouble with third party programs is it is not always easy to work out which are the harmless game pad enabler type and which are the botting type software type which is I suspect why they are mostly disallowed
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well as I said, I have not had this issue with MOST MMOs. And I certainly understand the reasoning for doing so. But thats why I also said maybe getting approval. That way they could look into it and decide yay or nay. Or provide official support. Im fine with either, I just dont want to be blocked off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So all that needs to be done to clear the way is to convince everyone to neither script bots nor hack. Then it should be a shoo-in.
Well I know for sure you cant do that with motion joy. As for Pinnacle game profiler, you can set up small macros. But whats the difference if you used a program vs a "gaming" keyboard, same difference?
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Goblin Squad Member
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From reading the Goblinworks blog, it seems that you PC players will be able to use about 20 abilities (mapped to the F buttons amongst others), that is in addition to a movement, jumping, opening the menu, changing targets (pure speculation), changing between your three sets of weapons....
Yeah, I don't see a gamepad controls working very and thus don't expect Goblinworks to do much with them. After all of they don't do them, only few people will care, but if they put it into the game every reviewer will have something to call teriible.
Allowing players to remap keys to a gamepad might not be that much work, but can't you get a gamepad that allows you to change the output of each button within the driver?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have not found such a gamepad if it exists. However there are 3 reasons why I would want to use third party support for a gamepad:
1. Obviously to map keys to a gamepad, which isnt much of a problem. And could be that there is a gamepad that has this built in as you say.
2. There is no official drivers for the sony PS3 gamepad, the generic versions suck, and I hate xbox gamepads. Motion Joy allows my PC to recognize my PS3 gamepad with unsigned drivers, and can even emulate xbox so that games that only support xbox gamepads will recognize my ps3 gamepad as such.
3. Have you ever tried to map mouse look and WASD to a gamepad? Without a little help from my Pinnacle program its very crappy. WASD does not convert well to an analog stick, it will have dead zones at the NE, NW, SE, and SW directions. Mouse look works fine but you have to assign a button to be left mouse and hold it down continuously. Which creates a problem because with a gamepad I need all my fingers. Pinnacle allows me to set a button as a "sticky" button so I its like I am holding down the left mouse button continuously, and thus freeing up my trigger fingers
Note: Think of the sticky button acting like the control button on TERA to switch from Battle and UI mode.
As for reviewers, I rarely listen to them. I have to play a game myself to know for sure if its any good. And if they did offer gamepad support, as long as keyboard/mouse support didnt suffer (which it wouldnt have too) then all should be fine.
I am campaigning for gamepad to be sure. But this would also fall into the same subject as lefty controls, and keyboard only users (no mouse). Its about options.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Based on GW's stance and general posts, I don't anticipate them say having problems with programs like AutoHotkey etc... Posts by Ryan and the gang, seem to show opinions of the following
1. Programs like warden/gameguard etc... historically have not worked, The arms race goes on but in general people wanting to hack will get by them, and the second one person does, the illegal programs trying to get by will also be updated. Thus any automatic anti-cheat detection will need to notice the behavior of the characters movements, and less focus on "Is some 3rd party program running". At least from what I am reading of ryan's post, a blind search of what's running on the computer, is not the route GW intends to use.
Did you know that World of Warcraft runs a hidden process on your machine that is designed to detect this kind of cheating? It's called "Warden" (you can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_%28software%29And even with this, people still hack the heck out of the WoW client.
Ask yourself if you really want Goblinworks to be that creepy, all for the un-achievable goal of making people have to worry about torches, lanterns and light spells.
2. The best anti-bot tactics is to make the game itself less tedious, and make the challange up so that a mindless bot, is unlikely to succeed.
Our first strategy will making the game systems interesting/complicated enough that it isn't very easy to bot. This should cut down on the number of simple bots to deal with. After that, we'll work on detecting them wherever we can. It will probably always be a battle though.
So IMO the most probable result is going to be that programs like autohotkey etc... when being used as a technique to be manned by a human, will not likely trigger an auto cheat detector and result in a ban like the experience you are mentioning
I doubt the game itself will intentionally be supportive of controllers, but i suppose you could likely work around it with something like AHK. IE if you need 20 buttons, you could use AHK to rig up one of the controller buttons as a modifyer,
IE say the controller has 11 buttons. the 11th button will change 1-10 to be 11-20 (or whatever key you want).
Obviously this is unofficial, but it seems to me to go in line with the general opinions expressed by the developers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be nice if the devs added to the flag system, a "Bot Flag", which would be permanent. This would allow us to freely attack a bot, at all times, even after respawn.
That might work if they were resource gatherers perhaps, but if there is a way to manage trades or engage in arbitrage without leaving the safety of say, a tavern (see: spreadsheets from a station in EVE), then it wouldn't be an effective way of dealing with them.
I like the idea though!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be nice if the devs added to the flag system, a "Bot Flag", which would be permanent. This would allow us to freely attack a bot, at all times, even after respawn.
I see little benefit for such. Assuming the existance of a flawless way to determine a character is a bot, the bot should be kicked off or banned.
Assuming the lack of ability to infallibly determine such, then this is a horrible griefing tool.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for that info Onishi. And I truly hope this to be the case. I have played many MMOs with both official and unofficial gamepad support. Its completely doable if you want to do it. Just google gamepad and MMO and you will find an entire sub-community that does this crazy thing. It just depends on if you are comfortable with a gamepad or not. Games that arent realisitically doable are FPS, point to click (Diablo style), or games that use ground targeting (GW2). So far these have been the only games I have had any problem converting to gamepad. Though for GW2 my work around was to use builds not incorporating ground targeting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf:
Probably the funnniest thing Ive encountered in MMOs was bot PKing. Ive seen it in a few. There have been a couple of PvE only games I have played where the challenge is how to kill someone. And from my experience playing these type of games, there is one. Is anyone familiar with MPK? Thats Monster Player Killer. The art of purposefully using the game systems to get Monsters to kill PCs.
A bit off topic, but couldnt help myself. The point is if there was a reliable way to do the Bot Flag idea, Id definately support it. Ive been in way too many MMOs where devs wont do anything. This idea is the type that fits within a sandbox because it allows the players to police themselves. So as an experienced bot killer, I like this idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A bit off topic, but couldnt help myself. The point is if there was a reliable way to do the Bot Flag idea, Id definately support it. Ive been in way too many MMOs where devs wont do anything. This idea is the type that fits within a sandbox because it allows the players to police themselves. So as an experienced bot killer, I like this idea.
There was one game, I think it was called luna saga or something, they had an idea of a bot system that was implimented but then withdrawn. Basically if a player suspected someone of botting, they had a tool that they could enter the players name, at which point it would throw a basic question at them. (like say what is four plus three). If the accused could not answer the question, they were disconnected.
The problem, it was abused. People would report AFK players, or people who were engaged in complicated combat to get them killed. IMO such a system could be tweaked. (say target has to move after being accused, and the clock dosn't start until all currently agro'd enemies are dead), but a silent flag to warn them not to draw more before answering.
From reading the Goblinworks blog, it seems that you PC players will be able to use about 20 abilities (mapped to the F buttons amongst others), that is in addition to a movement, jumping, opening the menu, changing targets (pure speculation), changing between your three sets of weapons....
Yeah, I don't see a gamepad controls working very and thus don't expect Goblinworks to do much with them. After all of they don't do them, only few people will care, but if they put it into the game every reviewer will have something to call teriible.
Allowing players to remap keys to a gamepad might not be that much work, but can't you get a gamepad that allows you to change the output of each button within the driver?
I couldn't disagree more. I use both a gamepad and a keyboard because the joysticks on a gamepad are far more ergonomical. I use the buttons on the pad for my most common functions and leave the keyboard on my lap for the rest.
The key mapping feature offered by ddo kept me playing despite its lack of content when compared to wow, which says quite a bit about how important it is to me.
I've now read most the blogs on goblin works site, I'm finally up to this year. All this time I've been hoping it would be addressed but I still havent seen anything. I was about to add a thread on it when I found this one. I see this ones over a year old though. Is there any news on the matter?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is there any news on the matter?
If you're talking specifically about news on the matter of using gaming pads, I don't recall anything official. When you say "gamepad" do you mean something like this or something like this?
I use something like the latter, and have no problem key-mapping to support any game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I played DDO, they had a in-game mapping system for key commands. There was no need for 3rd party software. I still needed to use the keyboard for certain things but for movement and basic commands my gamepad was more then enough. I would like PFO to have something like that.
@Nihimon Personally, its the one mimicking the Sony controller I use. I've been using Sony controllers for like 15 years so they're like my first language. It's just always made perfect sense to me to control movement with one thumb and view with the other. The reason I prefer Sony's config over Microsoft's is because Sony's is symmetrical which feels more natural in my hand. Again though, I still use my keyboard for everything I cant bind to the controller
P.S. Yes thank you lol, I'm finally about caught up:)
When I played DDO, they had a in-game mapping system for key commands. There was no need for 3rd party software. I still needed to use the keyboard for certain things but for movement and basic commands my gamepad was more then enough. I would like PFO to have something like that.
My sentiments exactly
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been using Sony controllers for like 15 years...
Always amazing when I see people say variations of this, as I'm on exactly the opposite end of that spectrum: I've never even *seen* a Sony controller. I went from the Atari 2600 to an Apple II, and I've been on "typical" computers since; I somehow missed the entire console revolution.
This may explain some of my utter lack of hand/eye coordination.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I use a Nostromo n52, and if you can find one, the older version is better than the newer 'tournament edition'. The software which allows you to make keybind profiles for it also covers a couple types of desk-free gamepads. I've never run into a problem with a game not responding to it, as I think the inputs from it are the same as any from a keyboard. A Logitech g13 is pretty good too. My current keyboard is a Logitech g19 and it has a bunch of programmable keys as well.
I have a mouse with 17 programmable keys, and a ket board for all of the rest, so I can;t see a control pad having an advantage over that.
I'd like something with more programmable buttons on my right side too, but it's not worth switching back to a mouse when I've been using trackballs for about 17 years now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I use a Nostromo n52, and if you can find one, the older version is better than the newer 'tournament edition'.
Yeah, I got a new model and I really don't like it as well. They changed the four separate arrow keys with a single hat-switch, so it's practically impossible for me to avoid pressing only the single direction I want. Since I always used to put "Up Arrow" as my auto-run key, that's very problematic for me.
As long as it does not give a clear advantage, I see no reason not to have the option, if it is possible within the software.
I have a mouse with 17 programmable keys, and a ket board for all of the rest, so I can;t see a control pad having an advantage over that.
To me it's not how many buttons it has, its about the 2 analog sticks positioned for my thumbs that i use in complete harmony to move and view. DDO had an option to dedicate one of your gamepad buttons to be held in conjunction with any other button to access a second set of commands, essentially doubling the buttons on the gamepad. I used the "select" button on my logitech controller for this button. Between the primary buttons, the L and R buttons, and the directional pad, thats 12 buttons to be doubled equaling 24. That took care of near everything I needed but I kept a few less common actions bound to me keyboard as well.
^besides, it cant be an advantage when its an option for everyone
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suffer from peripheral neuropathy and I am unable to play any game for extended periods of time using the keyboard/mouse option. Too painful. However, I have no problem with a gamepad. Why I am hoping PFO will at least have the ability to map out the keys and use the analog stick for movement or at least the d-pad.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IIRC Unity3D has controller support build in. It might even have native controller handling so it need not bother with differentiating between the different kinds of controllers.
I'm not sure how important that is right now as GW are in crap-is-on-fire-and-people-die mode right before the alpha but it might be easier to implement then a third party software.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IIRC Unity3D has controller support build in. It might even have native controller handling so it need not bother with differentiating between the different kinds of controllers.
If that's the case, we'd just need to be sure that:
a) PFO will ship with the ability to change keybindings (I'm assuming it will before end of EE), andb) The keybinding interface will accept "other" inputs as binds. That should theoretically be easy to program-in, if Unity3D already supports it.
crap-is-on-fire-and-people-die mode
Quote-of-the-Day winner, maybe?
^besides, it cant be an advantage when its an option for everyoneYeah, keep telling yourself that. Us old guys that have trouble with out arthritis will just sit over here in the corner mumbling about whippersnappers.
A gamepad should actually be much easier on your arthritis in the long run, they're far more ergonomical. Everyone being allowed the controller style they play best on is not an advantage, its just fair. Theres no advantage in allowing them, only in not allowing them.
I feel for Banesama. I have tendonitis and a gamepad is much better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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^besides, it cant be an advantage when its an option for everyoneYeah, keep telling yourself that. Us old guys that have trouble with out arthritis will just sit over here in the corner mumbling about whippersnappers.A gamepad should actually be much easier on your arthritis in the long run, they're far more ergonomical. Everyone being allowed the controller style they play best on is not an advantage, its just fair. Theres no advantage in allowing them, only in not allowing them.
I feel for Banesama. I have tendonitis and a gamepad is much better.
I was really just looking for an excuse to make a "whippersnapper" comment. I have no interest in trying to learn how to use this controller or that one instead of the keyboard I can barely handle now. Nor am I worried about someone getting an advantage over me. That's a given....
lol, well out of respect for my elders ill accept whippersnapper status;)
Please vote for gamepad support here
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please vote for gamepad support here
I'm surprised how many people voted 'no' for this. I of course, voted 'yes'. The way combat and such is being developed, it isn't going to be 'trigger' based. So gamepad support is not going to give an unfair advantage.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It's been a few years that I noticed that some parts of the gaming community are very hostiles, at giving accessibility to disabled gamers, even though it doesn't take them anything. Some people actually even voted no against the idea to put a colourblind accessibility mode in the game, because it would be a waste of resources...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Audoucet,
I voted "no" for gamepad and disabled gamers ideas, not because I am hostile, but because of scattered presentation of multiple ideas and no supporting arguments ("this should be obvious" is not an argument).
I have no idea about what disabled gamers are, what needs they have, why on earth anyone would want a gamepad instead of a mouse and keyboard, what options ALREADY exists on other games for disabled gamer support, how many of these people exists and is it worth time & money to cater to their demographics, and if GW even cares about them.
Give me a solid argument, give me a reason to care, convince me, and you will have my time, vote and money for the idea (and that goes in general to all vote ideas)...
Not signaling you out personally, and I will post something similar above to the main thread just to be consistent (but first, breakfast). :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's been a few years that I noticed that some parts of the gaming community are very hostiles, at giving accessibility to disabled gamers, even though it doesn't take them anything. Some people actually even voted no against the idea to put a colourblind accessibility mode in the game, because it would be a waste of resources...
10 years of volunteering for the Multiple Sclerosis Society has taught me not to attribute to hostility what is more likely to be self centeredness. People genuinely don't understand what it's like to have a disability, and they don't comprehend spending time and other resources on something that won't benefit most people right now.
They don't park in handicap spots because they are hostile to the disabled, it's because they don't understand how exhausting it can be to push your wheelchair an extra 50 feet across a 1 or 2% slope of parking lot with a bit of gravel on it or some cracks.
Fundamentally, most of the people here are concerned about getting the best game they can as soon as they can, and the case needs to be clearly made that it's worth their while to make an accommodation. I'm betting more than half of the people who voted no to gamepad or colour support had zero notion that it would make things easier for disabled players. They read the base premise and voted in about 3 seconds, then moved on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Lots of good points
@Cal B,
Exactly, good points to the above, and yes I also glance at each proposal and give it about 3-5 seconds of consideration. Most ideas I vote "yes" and few "no", and I am just waiting for the REAL VOTING to count, once the devs start giving us a limited option to choose from, then I will give serious consideration to each proposal.
@Audoucet,
I voted "no" for gamepad and disabled gamers ideas, not because I am hostile, but because of scattered presentation of multiple ideas and no supporting arguments ("this should be obvious" is not an argument).
I have no idea about what disabled gamers are, what needs they have, why on earth anyone would want a gamepad instead of a mouse and keyboard, what options ALREADY exists on other games for disabled gamer support, how many of these people exists and is it worth time & money to cater to their demographics, and if GW even cares about them.
Give me a solid argument, give me a reason to care, convince me, and you will have my time, vote and money for the idea (and that goes in general to all vote ideas)...
Not signaling you out personally, and I will post something similar above to the main thread just to be consistent (but first, breakfast). :)
You don't know what a disabled gamer is? It's pretty self explanatory man. People with carpal tunnel, tendonitis, etc are what we are talking about. Those are just common ailments, there are many more. Their needs are GAMEPADS, I would have thought that part was obvious. For some of these people, it gets quite painful to use a M&KB for a lengthy period of time. Also though, there are plenty of people who just enjoy using a gamepad over M&KB. They shouldn't have to give you a detailed report as to why. It takes very little resources to make all these people happy. I just can't fathom why anyone would vote down something that takes so little effort to make happen when so many people are asking for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't know what a disabled gamer is? It's pretty self explanatory man.
In my 38 years of living on this rock spinning around our Sun, I have seen, spoken to, engaged with or personally known (in an non-electronic format) as many disabled gamers as I do Russians, which is exactly ZERO.
So no, its not obvious to me what they experience, how many of them there are, what resources and accommodations they need, or anything about them. They are as unknown/alien/foreign/not-of-my-experience as may other things/situations/experiences.
*Edited for clarity and typo (thanks Andius!)