Not being flatfooted improves your control of the area around you, which both high initiative and Combat Reflexes help with. If an enemy has to stop to deal with you or risk a hefty AoO then they're still fairly clustered up when your Anvil drops an Area of Effect battlefield control spell on them. As soon as they get mixed up in the party's zone of control your options for limiting their ability to act decrease.
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Tactics are the very basis around my summoner for S&S. Enlarge the low AC 20str monk, have my eidolon bull rush the enemy Captain off of his ship, dismiss eidolon, summon entourage of monsters and haste everything was the usual tactic and it always worked. I had a couple other specialized combat spells if necessary but I rarely had to use them. Our party was so buffable and worked well together.
Not being flatfooted improves your control of the area around you, which both high initiative and Combat Reflexes help with. If an enemy has to stop to deal with you or risk a hefty AoO then they're still fairly clustered up when your Anvil drops an Area of Effect battlefield control spell on them. As soon as they get mixed up in the party's zone of control your options for limiting their ability to act decrease.
More than that being flatfooted opens you up to some real nastiness.
Forget being sneak attacked. Try having the fire giant trip you on its first attack with zero repercussions for doing so. BEfore your turn even begins you're about to eat one, maybe two AoO's without being able to full attack in return for a round or two.
Combat maneuvers are severely under utilized by GM's. While held and readied actions are severely under utilized by PC's.
Improved Initiative seems pretty boring since it doesn't give you any new abilities. On the other hand, I recently spent several levels in a high level campaign doing almost nothing in many fights because the DM would arbitrarily decide the monsters surprised us (Perception +27 was rarely helpful). The other two PCs both automatically got to act in the surprise round and almost always beat my initiative, so everybody else would get two turns before my PC moved.
Even the simplest choice of waiting for the enemy to move to you rather than moving up to it can be a big difference in a battle.
I find it interesting that you call this “the simplest choice” when it is an idea I have tried to popularize in the groups I play with for years on end with very little success. I frequently point out that if we wait for melee monsters to close they’ll get a single attack while we get full attacks, but people still charge. I mention that we could probably make better use of battlefield control and AoE spells, but people still charge. I point out that we could use reach weapons to benefit from AoOs, but people still charge. Even when people can’t charge they’ll often move up near the enemy and attack if they can. Their eagerness to join melee is often so great that they’ll double move into an enemy’s full attack. Sometimes a PC who can’t reach the front of the combat will even go open another door to draw more monsters from another room into the fight. Not everybody I know plays this way, but every group seems to have at least 1 or 2 followers of Leroy Jenkins.
@FanaticRat - I’ve tried to play PCs who use improvised weapons. It is generally a real drag. Either you end up in rooms seemingly devoid of items or you fall so far behind the curve of magic weapons it isn’t even worth trying. I did throw a lot of forks in place of shurikens with my Monk/Summoner, but it was mostly just for laughs.
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Question, though; how do you make an increased area of control, yknow, actually useful? I ran into the problem of taking the improved snap shot line at it has literally done absolutely nothing for my ability to control or defend against anything.
To the first part, make it dangerous.
Melee characters already do this by making it bigger, making it deal more damage when it triggers, adding status effect, threatening a full attack if they stop just outside of it.
Then, use it to direct traffic. Force people to take the long way around you to get to the soft parts of the group. Punish them for coming near you, block angles of attack or move in on soft enemies when the other guys try to flow around you.
As to the second part, not much I can help you with. The trouble with that line is that the first feat basically does for you what having armor spikes or a cestus would do.
Being an archer basically means being a dedicated hammer since pretty much everything you do with that bow is hurt people outside of corner cases and specific archetypes. Archery may be the most powerful style in terms of dealing damage due to efficient actions and positioning, but doesn't provide much in terms of control and versatility.
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I find it interesting that you call this “the simplest choice” when it is an idea I have tried to popularize in the groups I play with for years on end with very little success. I frequently point out that if we wait for melee monsters to close they’ll get a single attack while we get full attacks, but people still charge. I mention that we could probably make better use of battlefield control and AoE spells, but people still charge. I point out that we could use reach weapons to benefit from AoOs, but people still charge. Even when people can’t charge they’ll often move up near the enemy and attack if they can. Their eagerness to join melee is often so great that they’ll double move into an enemy’s full attack. Sometimes a PC who can’t reach the front of the combat will even go open another door to draw more monsters from another room into the fight. Not everybody I know plays this way, but every group seems to have at least 1 or 2 followers of Leroy Jenkins.
A problem everyone runs into who try to introduce intelligent play. Even GM's.
I think the problem comes down to "smart play" is not associated with "fun". Many people are quite happy simply running into the fray doing their best Guts impression. A lot of it comes down to the availability of consequence as well.
If they don't suffer death very often for bad play (GM won't kill us anyway), if they have a large safety net (eh, we've got a good healer and eleventy billion wands of cure light wounds), or are amateur optimizers (dude seriously my Falchion Fred/AMy Alchemist build can totally solo this just watch), then they either can't, won't, or don't need to see the problem.
Really, someone has to give and eventually just straight up make things harder for the players by playing smarter. Let the players know that the kid gloves are coming off and you're going to play your opponents based on their intelligence, motives, and capability, rather than the player's desires.
Sooner or later they get the hint.
Good blog, Tark.
This point: "The Caster-Martial Partnership
Martials do not so much protect and screen for their casters as simply exist as living battlefield control capable of finishing a fight. These same martials make excellent targets for buffs that increase their capacity to control the field and destroy the opponent."
is what I have been saying all along. Actually, I'll say it stronger- there is no real Caster-Martial disparity in a team that understands this point.
Yes, no doubt that a Wizard with Fly has more options- but one of the best options is to cast Fly on the martial PC. 4 wizards with Fly are not more useful than one wizard with Fly.
Blaster-casters are one of the worst caster options. Battlefield control and buffing are much better. Let the martial kill the bad guy- you're better than that.
Sure for some players, playing the martial is boring, no doubt. But other players hate playing casters and want to do DPR. This is the great thing about PF & D&D- so many options.
another word to add here is playing in-character. sure, you may know that the purple worm likes to grapple-constrict-swallow its prey, but does that mean that your character does? if you're built around knowing then likely yes, but i have characters like my 7int7cha fighter that would 100% treat a purple worm like any other big scary thing and expect to be able to tank its hits for the rest of the party. likewise my control druid with high wisdom and average intelligence would likely tell him to stay back and let the archers/casters deal with the beastie.
i have on more than one occasion found myself saying "well... it has dr 5/silver, but my character would have no idea, so i cast GMF on my wolf and tell him to flank with the rogue." because thats what our tactics would be otherwise, where the clearly better option would be to apply a silver blanch to my +1 obsidian dagger and flank myself.
taking the idea even further, i have on more than one occasion given incorrect tactical advice, because no-one else was trying to do tactics but my character had a 10 wisdom with no modifiers and would usually fall into the default i can take this guy if you all help me, and you know what you're doing.
on a complete other note, what do you do about players that, whether they know what the tactics are or not, refuse to follow a solid plan, or otherwise muck it up with their ignorance?
The problem with the caster-martial partnership is that there are many casting classes that can play the martial's part, and do it much better in comparison to some classes (Rogue and Fighter). Magi, Oracles, Wildshaping Druids, Bards, Alchemists, Inquisitors, and Summoners can all make very strong frontline hammers if built to that effect.
Furthermore, even if you limit the discussion to the martials that are actually good (Paladins, Rangers, Barbarians, and Slayers) the real disparity is what happens outside of combat, not within it. No matter how many ranks in diplomacy your Paladin has, she cannot match the power of a geas spell; no matter how hard your Barbarian can swing her sword, she cannot rip open reality and match plane shift.
Furthermore, even if you limit the discussion to the martials that are actually good (Paladins, Rangers, Barbarians, and Slayers) the real disparity is what happens outside of combat, not within it. No matter how many ranks in diplomacy your Paladin has, she cannot match the power of a geas spell; no matter how hard your Barbarian can swing her sword, she cannot rip open reality and match plane shift.
Which is outside the realm of combat.
As to the rest, it's worth mentioning that in every case of a caster being able to do the martial's job they have to expend resources and actions to match what a barebones fighter can do.
Also barbarians can shatter said reality.
another word to add here is playing in-character. sure, you may know that the purple worm likes to grapple-constrict-swallow its prey, but does that mean that your character does? if you're built around knowing then likely yes, but i have characters like my 7int7cha fighter that would 100% treat a purple worm like any other big scary thing and expect to be able to tank its hits for the rest of the party. likewise my control druid with high wisdom and average intelligence would likely tell him to stay back and let the archers/casters deal with the beastie.
The nice thing about this is that talking is a free action. And really if the group is working as a team little things like "it will eat you alive if you get close!" should be told before it happens. If the ignorant character chooses not to react or the informed chooses not to share then it's on them.
on a complete other note, what do you do about players that, whether they know what the tactics are or not, refuse to follow a solid plan, or otherwise muck it up with their ignorance?
Call them out in character and make them explain themselves. This is what people do when one guy decides to forego all training and planning to muck things up.
If they keep it up kick the character (not the player mind) from the group. Liabilities that can get you killed in a dangerous profession like adventuring are just the sort of things a normal person (or even an abnormal person with any shred of common sense) would not abide.
In my mind it stops being worth it when you become a liability in combat for lack of it. That is the hardest part of being a caster impo. I have had adventures where I died outright because my inquisitor was afraid of turning on judgement at a crucial time for fear of not having it when he needed it later (again, my gm hates the fact that I do 250 dpr on average and often targets me. I don't blame him) and on the flip side I've done the same for having used it when it wasn't needed and wanted for it later.
Sure, using dim door to get past the magically locked door is fine, but what if I need the spell when we hit the ambush on the other side?
I often find on my spell casters (specifically my kitsune compulsion sorc) are using more spell slots ooc to make up for lack of social skills than in combat, but we all know how useful compulsionists are in combat before they get 5th level spells
@FanaticRat - I was responding to your Pokemon post. It seemed to have a lot more to do with improvised weapons and combat maneuvers than improved snap shot. I haven't really looked at improved snap shot much.
@TarkXT - Kicking Leroy Jenkins out of the party often isn't an option. Not everybody enjoys it when LJ brings major heat down on the party or needs to be bailed out of yet another bad situation he charged into, but the same is true when "The General" starts offering tactical advice and trying to organize the party's actions. I'm trying to learn to limit my advice to times when people seem "at a loss" for what to do or the situation is truly dire. I guess a lot of people get told what to do and how to do it "most efficiently" all day at work and just want to cut loose and do something random and crazy in their games.
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on a complete other note, what do you do about players that, whether they know what the tactics are or not, refuse to follow a solid plan, or otherwise muck it up with their ignorance?Call them out in character and make them explain themselves. This is what people do when one guy decides to forego all training and planning to muck things up.
If they keep it up kick the character (not the player mind) from the group. Liabilities that can get you killed in a dangerous profession like adventuring are just the sort of things a normal person (or even an abnormal person with any shred of common sense) would not abide.
I have had very similar experiences. I agree, try to react in character. "After it is over, Bob walks up to LJ and says, 'What fudge was that about? We agreed on tactics then you through them out and almost got Reginald killed! Which side are you really working for? Next time, you walk into the camp all by yourself, and we'll see what happens!' Then see how he reacts in character."
Even if it would be in character, PFS doesn't allow PvP. But you can passively allow someone to kill themselves. We once had a PC at the table that if he couldn't see an immediately useful thing for him to do, he would just start opening more doors. I'm sure you can imagine how much more difficult that made things for us. After fruitless discussions, the next time it happened, all of our PC's moved away from the door-opener. Some of the current combat followed us, some didn't. But all of the new encounter (some sort of golem iirc) was faced just by the door-opener. We did not come back to help him until he called out in character a promise to not open another door.
So he was capable of learning slowly and painfully.
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... but the same is true when "The General" starts offering tactical advice and trying to organize the party's actions. I'm trying to learn to limit my advice to times when people seem "at a loss" for what to do or the situation is truly dire. I guess a lot of people get told what to do and how to do it "most efficiently" all day at work and just want to cut loose and do something random and crazy in their games.
There is kind of a fine line between being pushy and giving advice. Unfortunately, the line isn't in the same place for all players. (I have to admit, I am sometimes one of the sensitive ones, though I try to not be.)
I usually try to start with a question, "Should we make a plan before we head into what could be a tough fight or do we just charge in leading with our chins?" If they want to charge in, ok. I can usually deal with "just want to cut loose and do something random and crazy" even if it doesn't make any sense.
If they want to make a plan, "Well, my initial suggestions would be for the two casters to start casting buff spells at the same time Bruno is trying to break down the door. They will know someone is here, so no point being quiet. Then when the door is open etc...
Any one have any other ideas?"
My biggest problem is like the above example when someone agrees to a plan then doesn't follow it for no real reason. Then I call out that betrayal in-character like it deserves.
So is there any way to make improved snap shot dangerous or is it just a gigantic trap? It's kind of annoying as I see it lauded in some guides...
I'd call it one, yes, if you don't have a means to make your arrow attacks mean. IT has it's uses but armor spikes can do the same thing without the feat.
Also out of curiosity, at what point does the resource expenditure become not worth it? I mean I know I've used my summoner's summon monster SLA to solve non-combat problems plenty of times in ways a mundane couldn't or was far riskier for them and never felt like I was hurting for resources.
IT differs from group to group but imho you should stop at the point where you can only handle one more CR+1-2 encounter. Because night attacks can still be a thing.
IT differs from group to group but imho you should stop at the point where you can only handle one more CR+1-2 encounter. Because night attacks can still be a thing....
Also out of curiosity, at what point does the resource expenditure become not worth it? I mean I know I've used my summoner's summon monster SLA to solve non-combat problems plenty of times in ways a mundane couldn't or was far riskier for them and never felt like I was hurting for resources.
For me the point fluctuates up and down based on what the rest of the group does. If the rest of the group does nothing to handle weirdness, but just expects me to cover it then whines when I don't have the spells they want for combat... Well guess what happens next time weirdness comes up?
But with a cooperative group things are a lot different. I can say things like "Ok I can take care of this, but I won't have much left for any fights. You guys ok with handling the fights that crop up?"
@TarkXT - Kicking Leroy Jenkins out of the party often isn't an option.
Sometimes you don't have to. They can kick themselves out as Kydeem explained.
Not everybody enjoys it when LJ brings major heat down on the party or needs to be bailed out of yet another bad situation he charged into, but the same is true when "The General" starts offering tactical advice and trying to organize the party's actions. I'm trying to learn to limit my advice to times when people seem "at a loss" for what to do or the situation is truly dire. I guess a lot of people get told what to do and how to do it "most efficiently" all day at work and just want to cut loose and do something random and crazy in their games.
I think expectations are a part of it. I typically wait to go into "Strategy" mode until it seems like the group actually needs it. Usually a swift and thorough ass kicking from an encounter makes peope more amenable to an actual tactical discussion. I've got a lot to write on thsi subject and will definitely appear in the book. All I can say at this point is that patience is required.
Yeah, tough fights sometimes do make folks more open to fighting smart. Unfortunately it often takes a while for them to notice that a particular fight is or might become tough though.
So brief update on the book.
I'm slowly getting through it. Most the hang up is that when I do teaching illustrations it's with a metric ton of art garnered from places made by people for use with maptool. I have no idea who these people are or even if they care.
So that means redoing all the illustrations from scratch with maptool and public domain/creative commons art. Not fun.
So it plods along. I'll see if I can't finish another blog post tonight.
When the ACG comes out I also need to get going on a shaman and an investigator guide. I might do bloodrager too. Don't know yet. Ugh and I have to update the cavalier and summoner guides.
But since I'm here and it's on my mind what would you want to have in a Tactics 101 book?
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But since I'm here and it's on my mind what would you want to have in a Tactics 101 book?How to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentations of their women.
Win Mr. Universe 5 times.
Right so i made a quick and easy post about mutagens and the ACG for those interested.
Beyond that I'm in some rather dire straits what with a sudden job loss an incoming point of homelessness and a broken computer. So, it'll be a while before I can do anything significant again.
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Hope things take a turn for the better for you Tark, your insight and posts are always welcome (and I really like that most recent one, it's definitely an aspect of the ACG that hasn't seen much focus yet with all the thoughts on the new classes/feats taking centre stage). I hope the book comes together eventually, certainly looks like it'll be a great read given the blog posts but most of all the best of luck getting everything else back on an even keel sir.
Things are still rather hectic for me (unemployment can do that) but I have made a couple of small posts to the blog and I'm currently working on a rather large one that will be multiple parts regarding the average NPC Pathfinder soldier.
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First big post in a while. Need to find where the heck I put the outline for the book so I can get back to work on that but things are slowly but surely getting back to some form of relative normality.
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New post up on a subject that's been a minor fascination to me; that of soldiering.
This first part is regarding basic training and kitting up a green recruit.
NExt We'll talk about getting experience and specializing into other and more expensive roles in an army and maybe get into why magic probably isn't used as much as might be believed outside of serious magocracies.
Added a post about Martial Versatility last night for those interested.