I'm climbing a 200 foot wall... So I need to succeed on 27 consecutive Climb checks?


Rules Questions


Question's in the title.

It would certainly seem so according to RAW. The Climb skill description states: "With a successful Climb check, you advance... at one-quarter your normal speed... Climbing is part of movement... Each move action that includes any climbing requires a separate Climb check."

But this would mean that a typical character with a 30 foot speed would need 3 consecutive checks to climb out of a 20 foot pit. And I'm running an adventure path that includes a wall almost 200 feet high, and the text simply states "PCs must succeed at a DC 20 Climb check to navigate the walls of the shaft."

I encounter language like the quote above constantly in published adventures. But the Skill description strongly suggests this would require multiple checks. So what's the answer?

Liberty's Edge

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Take 10


So basically you need a 10 in climb to hope to make it, a 20 to hope to make it under fire. Which is pretty reasonable for a wall ... free climbing vertical surfaces ain't easy.


PCs must succeed at a DC 20 Climb check to navigate the walls of the shaft. The person that wrote the adventure had a certain idea what he/she was doing. The word "a" is the imporant word here and indicates a single skill check. Especially if your party is not a high level party the guy in heavy armor would inevitably fail skill check number 20 and fall >100 feet taking a great deal of damage and possibly outright death.

Most games should be challangeing with several ways to win. If there are not multiple ways to win then it is the GM's responsibility to make survival a resonable possibility.


The problem with saying that the dev wanted to make it achievable with enough rerolls of a single check is that it just causes a different problem ... how do you narrate failures?

You failed after climbing a few feet
You failed again after climbing only a few feet
...
After failing so many times after only a few feet you miraculously managed to climb 200 feet in one go and get to the top


well you can roll a d100 to say how high he was when he failed, and then have him make a reflex save to grab on and not fall

Dark Archive

If it is a shaft with corners then the DC reduces by 5 for climbing up the corner, or by 10 if you can brace against opposite sides, and by 15 if you can do both.

You would expect them to use a rope or pitons or teleport or something to make it easier.

Sczarni

I'd just put it at an all or nothing one roll and be done, break it up if you want, but the writer seemed to want just one check with the way it was written.

The guidelines for climbing are there for you as a GM to make stuff up and PCs to know what they are getting into, in modules and APs the authors often take a different tact and boil things into one roll or two.


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Well, if you just hold on to the neck of your giant, you can ascend without making a single check.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

The Rot Grub wrote:
I encounter language like the quote above constantly in published adventures. But the Skill description strongly suggests this would require multiple checks. So what's the answer?

I would go with the skill check suggested in the adventure. The skill rules are general rules and the author likely planned on that cliff being a fairly easy challenge. If you want to coach it in terms that are more narrative, look at it this way, most of the climb is easily attained, but there is one section that is particularly difficult. For example, the DC is low enough that most characters can take 10 all the way up save the last little bit which is trickier.

If there is just one skill check listed casually, it's unlikely it's meant to be a "player falls and dies" type challenge. Since much of the cliff is easy to ascend (we established that above), the tricky bit would involve a short fall to the next lowest ledge, maybe 20 feet.

In general, the nastier a challenge is meant to be, the more details will be there.

Sovereign Court

Even though the skill challenge mechanic is from 4e, the concept is still a good one in instances like this. The presumably low level party needs to scale the Cliffs of Insanity to catch up to the BBEG. You could make them roll every check out or you could have a set DC that they need to make several times. I would allow the best climber to make the checks with each of the other characters using aid another.

Or using a Pathfinder mechanic you could make it a Chase!

--Vrock Wall


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The Rot Grub wrote:

Question's in the title.

It would certainly seem so according to RAW. The Climb skill description states: "With a successful Climb check, you advance... at one-quarter your normal speed... Climbing is part of movement... Each move action that includes any climbing requires a separate Climb check."

But this would mean that a typical character with a 30 foot speed would need 3 consecutive checks to climb out of a 20 foot pit. And I'm running an adventure path that includes a wall almost 200 feet high, and the text simply states "PCs must succeed at a DC 20 Climb check to navigate the walls of the shaft."

I encounter language like the quote above constantly in published adventures. But the Skill description strongly suggests this would require multiple checks. So what's the answer?

Are the characters in combat? I'm assuming they aren't. So we aren't tracking standard/move actions.

So, a normal character has a move speed of 30 ft. In one day, that character can move 24 miles (overland movement). So, one quarter of that, the character can climb 6 miles in one day.

One could argue, "as part of my overland movement, I'm going to climb 6 miles, or until I reach the top of the Cliffs of Insanity. Whichever comes first." One Climb skill check.

Is it RAW? Could be...

Sczarni

Also: climbing gear of some quality helps with all those take 10's.


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The Rot Grub wrote:
...I encounter language like the quote above constantly in published adventures. But the Skill description strongly suggests this would require multiple checks. So what's the answer?

So you don't want to try this unless you are a skilled climber and can take 10. +2ranks +3class +3str +2climbers kit(80gp)= +10 at 2nd level. Only 1 person (with 200ft of rope) needs to make it. Then the rest can climb the dc 5 (with wall to brace) rope.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

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Valandil Ancalime wrote:
The Rot Grub wrote:
...I encounter language like the quote above constantly in published adventures. But the Skill description strongly suggests this would require multiple checks. So what's the answer?
So you don't want to try this unless you are a skilled climber and can take 10. +2ranks +3class +3str +2climbers kit(80gp)= +10 at 2nd level. Only 1 person (with 200ft of rope) needs to make it. Then the rest can climb the dc 5 (with wall to brace) rope.

After spending 2 hours meticulously knotting a 200 foot rope, you discover that it's now 40 feet too short.

Sczarni

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After spending 2hrs tying those knots and then making the arduous climb up, the wizard has cast spider climb and has been sunning himself on the top for almost 2hrs or more.


PRD wrote:

Make Your Own Handholds and Footholds

You can make your own handholds and footholds by pounding pitons into a wall. Doing so takes 1 minute per piton, and one piton is needed per 5 feet of distance. As with any surface that offers handholds and footholds, a wall with pitons in it has a DC of 15. In the same way, a climber with a handaxe or similar implement can cut handholds in an ice wall.

PRD wrote:
A rope with a wall to brace against, or a knotted rope, or a rope affected by the rope trick spell. DC 5
PRD wrote:
Climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls. Subtract 5 from the DC.
PRD wrote:

Accelerated Climbing

You try to climb more quickly than normal. By accepting a –5 penalty, you can move half your speed (instead of one-quarter your speed).

A free hanging knotted rope is of equal challenge as an unknotted rope with a wall to brace against.

If you have one person capable of climbing, they can hammer pitons in, or get to the top and drop the 200 feet of rope. With the rope, it's a DC 10 climb check to move half speed instead of a quarter and would then only be 14 skill checks to reach the top. DC 20 check with the pitons, and 14 checks, or 27 at DC 15. It will take roughly 1 hour to climb and hammer in pitons. Same DCs as the pitons if you can climb a corner.

1 rank + 3 class + 2 climbers kit + str mod + take 10 = 16+str mod

A character with one rank and 18 str can do this at level one as long as they have no armor giving an armor check penalty. If they do, remove armor before climbing.

In the corner or with pitons, no str is required to move at normal speed.

With a rope, every PC can do this with no ranks as long has they have a str of at least 10.

What's the level of the PCs and the classes? This shouldn't be too hard if they're prepared a little. Most PCs carry the standard 50 ft of rope, so it may depend on the number of ropes available.


Thanks for the responses everyone.

The party is 1st level, and no one is capable of Taking 10 in this situation.

@Dennis I like your suggestion about narrating a single part of the wall requiring a DC 20 check. I think I'll use that when using published adventures that state to use a single skill check.

In this situation, there is an elevator-like platform near the top of the wall, so a single person with good climbing ability could scale the wall and send the platform down.

I'm also thinking that they might go back to town, get a long rope and a grappling hook, and use magic (a telekinesis scroll maybe?) to manipulate the grappling hook upward.

As it turns out, this certain adventure gives PCs a much easier way to reach the top of the wall (through a guarded staircase). But this situation comes up so many times in published adventures that I had to ask.


In situations like this I always tend to fall back on my own view of how the world works.

Climbing a 200 foot wall with no safety equipment and no climbing aids is a big frickin' deal. If I felt like the adventure was intended to have the climb be successful with a single check, I would rule that the wall in question was rough, cracked or otherwise had features which made it easy to climb and do the single roll.

If I felt like it was supposed to be a serious challenge, I'd fall back on something like the rules, meaning it would likely take multiple checks to determine success, and the higher you went, the more damage you'd take on a fall.

A 200 foot sheer wall should be a very serious challenge for a group of level 1 characters.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

In situations like this I always tend to fall back on my own view of how the world works.

Climbing a 200 foot wall with no safety equipment and no climbing aids is a big frickin' deal. If I felt like the adventure was intended to have the climb be successful with a single check, I would rule that the wall in question was rough, cracked or otherwise had features which made it easy to climb and do the single roll.

If I felt like it was supposed to be a serious challenge, I'd fall back on something like the rules, meaning it would likely take multiple checks to determine success, and the higher you went, the more damage you'd take on a fall.

A 200 foot sheer wall should be a very serious challenge for a group of level 1 characters.

If you want to inject reality into it, most 200 foot "cliffs" are not sheer vertical walls or even close. Sometimes there might be a section that's 200 foot sheer, but not for long stretches, you just go around that bit. (Unless you are organizing an adventure race in which case you force the racers to climb straight over it using jumars.)


Dennis Baker wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

In situations like this I always tend to fall back on my own view of how the world works.

Climbing a 200 foot wall with no safety equipment and no climbing aids is a big frickin' deal. If I felt like the adventure was intended to have the climb be successful with a single check, I would rule that the wall in question was rough, cracked or otherwise had features which made it easy to climb and do the single roll.

If I felt like it was supposed to be a serious challenge, I'd fall back on something like the rules, meaning it would likely take multiple checks to determine success, and the higher you went, the more damage you'd take on a fall.

A 200 foot sheer wall should be a very serious challenge for a group of level 1 characters.

If you want to inject reality into it, most 200 foot "cliffs" are not sheer vertical walls or even close. Sometimes there might be a section that's 200 foot sheer, but not for long stretches, you just go around that bit. (Unless you are organizing an adventure race in which case you force the racers to climb straight over it using jumars.)

That's why I said "wall" Dennis. Not "cliff".

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

What I'm saying is if you are talking about injecting reality into the game, such things are rare. The idea of a sheer 200 foot wall that you can't mostly bypass by going 1/4 mile to one side or another is very rare. People might describe something as a 200 foot 'wall', but what they mean is a cliff.

Considering the description in the book indicates one climb check, sounds to me like they are making exactly that sort of generalization.


Dennis Baker wrote:

What I'm saying is if you are talking about injecting reality into the game, such things are rare. People might describe something as a 200 foot 'wall', but what they mean is a cliff.

Considering the description in the book indicates one climb check, sounds to me like they are making exactly that sort of generalization.

Two points:

1. The OP stated the following: "includes a wall almost 200 feet high, and the text simply states "PCs must succeed at a DC 20 Climb check to navigate the walls of the shaft". So it was a wall, which was the side of a constructed 200' deep pit. So wall.

2. There is no need to "generalize" the concept of walls and cliffs. The difference between a wall and a cliff from a climbing perspective is handled by the DC of the wall or cliff in question. A "sheer wall" would have a higher DC than a "rough, slanted cliff". That's how the rules work.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

The difference between a wall and a cliff from a climbing perspective is handled by the DC of the wall or cliff in question.
–––––––
Which is exactly my point. The DC in this case is 20 and it's one check; doesn't sound like a sheer wall to me.


Dennis, I would concur that a single DC 20 check to climb 200 feet "doesn't sound like a wall to me" either.

However the text of the module explicitly describes it that way.

Which is why it's being discussed no doubt. The mechanic described to overcome it doesn't seem to match the description. That is assuming that you read the "a" DC check in the quoted text that literally, which is not clear to me that you should.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

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Quote:
However the text of the module explicitly describes it that way.

Ok, please make up your mind, are you basing this on 'how the real world works' as you said above, or how the module is written? Because my reply was about how the real world works in response to your comment.

Phrases like "200 foot wall" are often not intended to be literal. It is descriptive text intended to portray a feel for the terrain. Here is the post from the original poster:

Quote:
I'm running an adventure path that includes a wall almost 200 feet high, and the text simply states "PCs must succeed at a DC 20 Climb check to navigate the walls of the shaft."

"Walls" don't have shafts either, so clearly it's not literally a "wall". This is further reinforced by the actual skill check involved. Obviously, the author of the adventure path isn't using the word the way you think it should be used.

Grand Lodge

Concidering the OP has stated there is another way to the top (though guarded) it seems to me the DC for climbing the wall was only given in the event a PC got the crazy idea to climb it instead of going the "normal" way. I belive the 27 consecutive climb checks ARE what is needed.

This means a character who is focused on being able to Climb, even at 1st level, can have alot of bonuses to make the climb possible. For example. Climb is a Class Skill, with 1 rank and a 14 Strength. Thats a +6 on the climb check. If he uses a corner (if available) thats a -5 on the DC. Now He needs to make a DC 15 with a +6, you can take 10 on that.

If the Character has pitons he can stick in the wall, then he can reduce the DC to 15 even without a corner to use.


The Rot Grub wrote:
And I'm running an adventure path that includes a wall almost 200 feet high, and the text simply states "PCs must succeed at a DC 20 Climb check to navigate the walls of the shaft."

Perhaps it was just poorly worded and meant, "The dc to climb this wall is 20." I wonder what 1st level AP it is?


Dennis Baker wrote:
Quote:
However the text of the module explicitly describes it that way.

Ok, please make up your mind, are you basing this on 'how the real world works' as you said above, or how the module is written? Because my reply was about how the real world works in response to your comment.

Phrases like "200 foot wall" are often not intended to be literal. It is descriptive text intended to portray a feel for the terrain. Here is the post from the original poster:

Quote:
I'm running an adventure path that includes a wall almost 200 feet high, and the text simply states "PCs must succeed at a DC 20 Climb check to navigate the walls of the shaft."
"Walls" don't have shafts either, so clearly it's not literally a "wall". This is further reinforced by the actual skill check involved. Obviously, the author of the adventure path isn't using the word the way you think it should be used.

Geezuz... now you are reading the mind of the writer to conclude that the text written means exactly the opposite of what it says. Just to try to score a rhetorical point. I love the intrawebz.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

No. I'm reading the text the writer wrote. "DC 20 skill check" and interpreting it in the way that makes the most sense. You seem in love with the literal interpretation of one phrase when it's clearly contradicted by everything else.

Edit: It's called Context. If the phrase "200 foot wall" were by itself, I might well agree. But the other text and game rules contradict the literal interpretation.


If you have the means, I would invest in a climber's kit, extra rope, and potions of Expeditious Retreat. The increase in base speed will make fewer checks necessary. Use the climber's kit to anchor your rope at various points along the way. Hammer, pitons, andall that, so you won't fall far when you eventually get a bad roll.


Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Perhaps it was just poorly worded and meant, "The dc to climb this wall is 20." I wonder what 1st level AP it is?

The AP is:

Spoiler:
Shattered Star, and the wall is inside one of the Bridge pilings.


I always use the rules for the skill involved. A 200 foot wall would require multiple successful climb checks to scale, and failure on one check would lead to a character falling the distance they had already climbed.

Adventure specific spoilers here:

Spoiler:
That said, the adventure provides the party access to ropes that, if found, decrease the check from DC 20 to DC 5, meaning only the most heavily armored fighter wearing full plate with a +0 strength modifier (unlikely) would fail the check taking a 10. Second, only a single character needs to climb at DC 20 for the party to gain access to these ropes, and finally, the adventure states that PC's should be 3rd level by the time they are exploring that section of the dungeon, giving the party access to 2nd level spells such as Spider Climb (if they have a Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard) or failing that, Bulls Strength which most pure casting classes have access to.

Sheila Heidmarch also gives the party a Ring of Feather Falling assuming they finish the puzzle she gives them, so if a single character makes the climb with the intent of throwing a rope to the rest, he should be in no danger of falling to his death from failed checks. Also, one of the prominent NPC enemies from earlier in the Adventure Path has a Climber's Kit (+2 circumstance bonus to climb checks), and Cat Burglar's Boots (+2 competence bonus to climb and acrobatics checks), giving the party PLENTY of resources to deal with a wall requiring DC 20 climb checks.

An unarmored character with an 18 strength (16 base with 15 point buy, +2 from race) and 3 ranks in climb as a class skill has a base +10, and the climbers kit add another +4 in case climb is not a class skill, or they have fewer ranks. This should not be a challenge for a party prepared to deal with dungeons.


Aldarionn wrote:

I always use the rules for the skill involved. A 200 foot wall would require multiple successful climb checks to scale, and failure on one check would lead to a character falling the distance they had already climbed.

Adventure specific spoilers here:

** spoiler omitted **

Very useful advice for this adventure. Thanks.

I'm GMing a bunch of 11 year olds, and I actually like how this forces them to develop dungeoneering/spelunking skills, and immerses them in the reality of the Game and this location in particular.

Assistant Software Developer

I removed a post. Chill.


The Rot Grub wrote:
I'm also thinking that they might go back to town, get a long rope and a grappling hook, and use magic (a telekinesis scroll maybe?) to manipulate the grappling hook upward.

A 5th level scroll is wasted on this. A spider climb scroll is much cheaper and would be sufficient to accomplish the same task.


Q: "I'm climbing a 200 foot wall... So I need to succeed on 27 consecutive Climb checks?"

A: While I've never climbed a 200 foot wall, I used to regularly climb 65 foot walls, repeatedly, so I think I can reasonably authoritatively say "yes". A climb, even one with reasonable holds has many points of consideration. Unless you're looking at a ladder-like situation where the holds are uniformly shaped and placed, you repeatedly encounter moments where you have to shift weight, "match" hands (your right hand is on a hold but you'd rather have your left on it, so you match), stop pulling "down" and start pulling "sideways" to get where you need to go and so on. It's a constantly-changing challenge that breaks down into discrete "moves".

Basically, the "take 10" mechanic says it all. I haven't climbed in a year but I'm certain I could flash a 5.4 that was 200 feet. I'd be willing to do without top-rope I'm so certain. I could probably do the same on a 5.6 climb. 200 feet is a long way, so I wouldn't be confident on a 5.7 and wouldn't even consider trying it without gear. I've climbed a couple 5.10s, for perspective's sake. Point is there's difficulty and you get good at stuff. If you can't "take 10", it's work and yes, you need to make the checks. I can "take 10" on a 5.4 but being rusty I can't "take 10" on a 5.7, see?

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