How will AC be used as a combat mechanic?


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

My question is whether AC will prevent an attack from hitting (as traditional Pathfinder rules) or if it will be changed to a form of damage reduction?

In the first version it would make it very hard for certain people to land a hit on a person with a high AC, whether it's because of armor or dodging around.

In the second version, even someone with a high AC is going to take damage from a newbie tripping over their own feet. This will also further encourage self medication (everyone being able to cast heals).

Goblin Squad Member

Don't think of PFO in PnP mechanics, the game will not be an adaptation of the tabletop.

Having a mechanical knowledge of PF:RPG, will not help you with PFO, because those mechanics will not be used in the MMO, tabletop mechanics don't translate into a real-time online environment.

Having an in-depth knowledge of the lore will, because that is what will be used in the MMO.

Combat mechanics have not been decided yet, or at least we haven't been told. PnP terms may be used in the MMO, but they wont do the same thing.

Goblin Squad Member

Ravenlute wrote:

My question is whether AC will prevent an attack from hitting (as traditional Pathfinder rules) or if it will be changed to a form of damage reduction?

In the first version it would make it very hard for certain people to land a hit on a person with a high AC, whether it's because of armor or dodging around.

In the second version, even someone with a high AC is going to take damage from a newbie tripping over their own feet. This will also further encourage self medication (everyone being able to cast heals).

All is theoretical as nothing has been anounced, but I would expect an all or nothing system as the P&P game as very impractical. It is great for P&P where the calculations need to be simple enough for a human to resolve in a short time, but poor for an MMO, especially considering in the MMO, we do want low/mid players, to have an impact in battles that will contain people with drastically better equipment and skills.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Huh. That never made it into any of the combat system posts. We may need to schedule a more in-depth discussion of the attack and damage system for one of these weeks.

But in as brief a summary as I can:

Armor provides damage resistance. The mechanism's a little more complex, so don't make assumptions until we can lay it out in more detail, but the same attack will do less damage against someone with more armor.

Players also have defensive target numbers, based both on inherent upgrades (you're harder to hit no matter what you're wearing) and competence with gear (you're harder to hit because you're wearing better armor and you've trained in wearing better armor).

Players have an attack bonus representing skill with the weapon group they're using (and a Base Attack that works with everything).

All of those numbers can be buffed/debuffed by various sources.

When you make an attack, we do a roll in the background (and we curve the result based on your skill and the quality of the weapon so it's not like a flat percentage chance).

We add the attack roll to your attack bonuses and compare the result to your target's total defense number.

If you hit or beat the target, you do full weapon damage (which is another fairly complicated system what with all the keywords and different weapon types) and have a chance to crit.

If you miss the target number, you do less than full damage. The amount less is on a curve, so if you miss by a little you might do 10% less than base, but you have to miss by a huge amount to do 100% less.

This keeps it so newer characters can do something to higher level ones: it's really hard to just be so outclassed that you can't hit the enemy, you'll just hit for less damage.

It's also our main random component of the system: you don't then do a variable amount of the damage itself after you hit. If your attack is high enough to consistently beat the target's defense number, you won't see a lot of swing in the damage you're putting out, making it easier to predict whether this is working for you or you need to change your tactics.

So... to answer your question:

The factors that contribute to AC in Pathfinder are both a fixed and variable damage reduction. The variable is instead of a binary hit/miss chance, since we figure that's less likely to bury you under bad dice luck in a fight.

It does mean that a newbie tripping over his own feet can hurt you a little bit, but that's intentional. We don't want high level characters to just be able to completely ignore newer ones.

Goblin Squad Member

Thank you Stephen!

Goblin Squad Member

Sounds interesting. Thanks!

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Thank you Steven!

It's Stephen...

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen, sorry. Thanks again, Nihimon.

Goblin Squad Member

I wonder if this will help with the age old "commoner versus domestic house cat" paradox.

Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:
I wonder if this will help with the age old "commoner versus domestic house cat" paradox.

Schrodinger's House Cat?

Goblin Squad Member

I was merely looking for the box.

The cat was a byproduct.

Goblin Squad Member

Thank you Stephen for taking the time to explain. This system plays better in a PvP game and it's where I thought PFO might be leaning but I hadn't seen anything on it and wanted to be clear.

So damage may fluctuate based on how good an attack is vs a defense. I can see that working well for everyone. The long time player will have a better chance of consistently doing more damage but the new player can still be a threat.

I'm not going to go in too deep on the armor damage reduction since you said that more explanation will need to be given and I'm probably over simplifying. I am curious though if the damage reduction will be a flat number based on the armor or a percentage?

The flat number would make multiple low damage attacks less effective while high burst damage attacks would be optimal. For examples sake say that Scale Mail had a flat DR of 10. If someone wearing that was rapidly attacked four times for 20 damage each, that would be a total of 40 damage mitigated. If that same person was attacked with one big attack totaling 80 damage that would only be a total of 10 damage mitigated.

If it was a percentage however, say 10% for Scale Mail, then in my previous examples 8 damage would be mitigated regardless of what form the attacks took. I think this would be the preferred method as it keeps combat a bit more balanced and prevents certain weapons from being outcast just because of their type or how they are used.

If that can't be answered yet, it's okay. I more than appreciate the information given here today. :D

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Based on that description, I would guess that the damage reduction would be fairly complicated and quite likely involve different flat reductions and percentage reductions for different types of weapon.

In short, it seems like there will be a style of armor which is defeated by daggers but not by maces.

Goblin Squad Member

How about different kinds of weapons having different effects depending on the armor type you are using?

As, for example, a chain mail being more effective against arrows and slash weapons, but less effective against blunt weapons?

The game combat mechanics will include something to consider this kind of adjustement?

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Chain isn't particularly effective vs arrows. Depending on how where it is it can be quite effective vs blunt weapons. Of course that doesn't mean the same applies in game.

Goblin Squad Member

Speaking as someone who has recently suffered significantly bruised ribs from a half-power sword-swing through my chainmail... not so much effective against bludgeoning weapons.

I play from time to time in one of those 'medieval recreation' things.

I'm getting an idea here, though, and I want to post a new thing about crafting...

Goblin Squad Member

Purplefixer wrote:

Speaking as someone who has recently suffered significantly bruised ribs from a half-power sword-swing through my chainmail... not so much effective against bludgeoning weapons.

I play from time to time in one of those 'medieval recreation' things.

I'm getting an idea here, though, and I want to post a new thing about crafting...

That sort of RL insight is priceless. Thanks for mentioning this! I think that sort of insight is invaluable for designing, for obvious reasons. Lee Hammock mentioned he's been into archery for a long time, which again is cool to hear. :)

Stephen really provided a huge amount of info on the combat system that I've seen with that post. Quite complicated, but reading and rereading it...

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I can also tell you from RL recreation experience, that the eyeslits in a greathelm will allow a dagger to pass through with relative ease. It also seems like your gambeson wasn't padded enough, Purplefixer. ;)

One thing that always seems to be abstracted in armor in games is strapping and padding. Chainmail without proper padding is worse than nothing at all because it is flexible. It will blunt the edge of a bladed weapon, but the force of that blow is not deflected, so you need something to absorb it. It also is really ineffective against something like a mace, because the force just pushes the rings into you. I have seen rings embedded in skin because the mail wasn't padded and the fighter was rhino-hiding.

If something isn't strapped right, then it will either restrict your movement making you much less effective in hitting back, leave openings in your protection, or both. This is sort of simulated by non-proficiency in PnP, but it's really much worse than that in RL.

None of this really matters in game terms, because as a game it doesn't need to be a simulator. But it is interesting to see a discussion of RL arms and armor weaknesses.

Goblin Squad Member

Foscadh wrote:
Chain isn't particularly effective vs arrows.

Whereas, counter-intuitively, quilted often was.

Just another example of how applying high school physics to a role playing question often comes up with wrong answers. Then again high school physics is way more likely to give a realistic answer than Hollywood physics.

Goblin Squad Member

It is my understanding that crushing weapons like war hammers were used versus plate wearers not just because of the hooks to catch on joints when pulling the target from his mount, but because hammering the edges of plate can drive the armor itself into the flesh.

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