Some Observations on PFS


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5/5 5/55/55/5

Lavode wrote:
My sorc has 1 point in bluff and 1 in diplomacy. Only one other character had a single point in diplomacy. None had anything in bluff. Of the others, 2 were willing to spend a little bit of cash on potions of disguise self and 2 were not. I used up about half the mission pay in scrolls. There were 2 trap/fights that were very easy for our dps heavy group. But there were many bluff, sense motive, linguistics, diplomacy, and knowledge checks. We got very lucky with several rolls of 17+ which was the only way we succeeded.

If bluff or diplomacy aren't class skills, putting a point or two into them is kinda pointless.

Lets say the dc is 20

If Boogerpicker has a 7 cha, and he puts a point in, his chances go from 0%... to 0%

If he puts 2 points in, he has a 5% chance of making the roll. 3 points 10% chance. If you're only getting 3 skill points per level its a serious investment.

Now thats assuming that booger picker has to make the roll. This is only the case for some faction missions and if booger picker is the party face. So for putting half of his skill points into a skill he has a less than 5% chance of making the roll.

Its simply not worth it.

The Exchange 5/5

Edit: (reply to Walter)
Nah, it's all about the dog (or wolf). Feats are Mounted Combat - Shield Focus - Mounted Shield (gives my dog the Tower shield AC bonus). And the -2 to hit for the Tower Shield means my attack rolls really bite!

Edit: yeah, I like to talk to much. Even when my PC has a bad Cha - I say it's cause he talks to much!

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

So... Your job is to keep the dog alive while it does the fighting? That's hilarious. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
So... Your job is to keep the dog alive while it does the fighting? That's hilarious. :)

..I'm a cleric for Frank the Pug over there..

The Exchange 5/5

Jiggy wrote:
So... Your job is to keep the dog alive while it does the fighting? That's hilarious. :)

Yeah. I'm looking at...

Potion of Invisibility - Wand of Vanish (with UMD as he has a high CHA - he was going to be a Paladin... but Bluff=Lie=loose powers bit me).

So I've got his AC over 26 at 4th level, and I still get the Mounted Combat roll. ;)

(edit: Vanish the mount after it attacks - and if the judge lets me act on different Init. I'll delay until after the mount, that way it's invisible for his attack - blinks in - and blinks out.

Liberty's Edge

Yiroep wrote:

I think we have two different arguments going on. One is saying to build your character well-rounded, and the other is to play your character well-rounded.

I take issue with people telling me how to build my character. If I want to play the 5 charisma beat stick or druid (I do have a 5 charisma druid), then let me. I will face the consequences of my build.

However, I do agree that people should play their character well-rounded. That's just part of being a great player. And that could mean failing horribly at talking to people.

I think the main complaint here is that not all characters do everything? That's the only thing I can take from it. "You can't predict your party." Well, that's a natural result of playing in an organized play party. Unless you're willing to multi-class 4 classes to be a pure generalist, you're going to have some holes in your characters.

To say that you saved your party by having high charisma makes a great story. Guess what? My bard has saved a party by doing obscene amounts of archer damage. If they didn't have that damage, they would have failed the mission (and ended up dead).

And putting a rank into something isn't going to be great for everyone. Guess what 1 rank in perception gives an oracle with 10 wisdom (barring other bonuses)? +1 perception. That's not going to save the world or anything.

Really, I'm not sure what this argument is headed for. You can't predict what's in a scenario (usually....;), so being prepared is about the best you can do.

Ok, I'm not trying to have an argument about anything or tell anyone they have to build their character this way. I was just observing that what I expected from reading these boards was not what I saw. One of those was the uber specialization build (I would consider what you purchase to be part of your build).

There are alot of threads giving advice on how to do well in PFS. They tell things like:
Diplomacy being one of if not the most needed skills.
Everyone should buy some cure and condition removal stuff.
Faction missions can be very difficult if you can't do anything but combat.
Swarms are very common in low level missions, so it is a good idea to buy a splash vial.
Buy a wand of mage armor so someone else can use it on you even if you can't easily activate it.
Take a point in some knowledge skills (especially the class ones) so you can at least attempt the check.
Etc...

So I expected to see most players following the advice that was given. I was surprised to see a whole lot of experienced players that are following little-to-none of the advice.
And it appears to me that they are genuinely upset and disheartened when they don't do well. They are upset that no one in the group brought a vial of acid (even though they didn't either). Complain to the GM because they can't complete their secret faction mission because they don't have any skill except perception and acrobatics (even though they refuse to buy anything that might help).

I'm not saying you personally have to build a jack-of-all-trades. But I was surprised at the number of people that are building/playing idiot savants AND upset that others are doing the same thing.

I wasn't bragging before. I was expressing shock. If my level 2 sorc (rather poorly built since it was my first) had not been there, the party with 5 PC's of 3rd to 5th level would have failed. I think at least several of them would have been very upset about failing it and/or the faction missions.

Your statement of "...so being prepared is about the best you can do." is very to the point. Many of the players I've seen don't appear to be even trying to do anything to "be prepared".
"Man, my ability to poke holes in almost anything wasn't enough to make us succeed. I better by a sharper stick so I'm even better at poking holes in things."

4/5

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:

Your statement of "...so being prepared is about the best you can do." is very to the point. Many of the players I've seen don't appear to be even trying to do anything to "be prepared".

"Man, my ability to poke holes in almost anything wasn't enough to make us succeed. I better by a sharper stick so I'm even better at poking holes in things."

Ah, that's what you meant. That makes perfect sense now. As a PFS GM, I've had people fail faction missions before and whine about it, and it gets very annoying. You do the best you can, and if it wasn't enough, you don't worry about it.

Yeah, those people who whine and complain get on my nerves. I had one person who succeeded every faction mission so far fail one for me, and whined the whole game. It really got on my nerves and the other player's nerve.

So, I agree with you on this point.

As a side note:
Something for helping diplomacy...a potion of Enhanced Diplomacy? Level 0 spell, gives +2 (edit: not +5, that's what I get for using the numpad) to your next diplomacy check. Touch spell, too, so if someone has it known they can cast it all day.

Shadow Lodge 1/5

nosig wrote:

different areas will have different mixes. If you see a shortage of something - make a PC to fill the gap. If it's fun, play it.

someone should start a thread (again) for what PC classes everyone runs.
here's my list...
1. Rogue (Trapssmith - with a wizards spellbook)
2. Cleric (Armored Combat medic)
3. Bard (I own face skills)
4. Alchemist (Buffing Blaster)
5. Rogue (Combat Blademaster)
6. Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickester
7. Cleric (another armored Combat Medic)
8. Ftr/Cav - (Dogrider/Face)
9. Bard (Detective/Face)

That makes 2 Clerics, 3 rogues, 2 wizards, 1 Arcane Blaster... looking at this it seems like we really need some "front line Max Damage" types.

1. Paladin (Starting retirement arc--Combat monkey, can do diplomacy)

2. Wizard (Not played very often, my 'suck up GM credit character' buffer/debuffer)
3. Bone Oracle ('Beloved of Zyphus' owns face skills, debuffer, reserve frontliner)
4. Summoner (Archer/Combat monster/buffer. Archer due to overpowered Andoran trait, one of two active summoners in my area)
5. Alchemist (Blaster, occasional front line fighter,)
6. Fighter (Front liner w/social skills/debuffer) If I do my build as planned I'll have levels in rogue(thug), barbarian, and battle oracle.
I'm glad they allow pitborn tieflings now or this concept wouldn't work.

Looking at this list, all of my character have a primary role, however they can step up and do something else. For example, my summoner will let her eidolon charge and shoot you with her bow. However, if the bow isn't getting through, she'll start buffing the eidolon. Out of combat she has many useful skills. Alchemist is primarally a bomber. However, if called for he can buff himself and wade into melee or use spells. Has lots of knowledge skills.

I think these are good examples of well rounded characters.

The Exchange 5/5

ah... ok, my 2 CP - even if it'll be a waste.

If I am sitting down at the table, I check to see what isn't there.

Got someone with Disable Device? Got a healer? Got a Face? Got Mr. Know-it-All for Knowledge? Detect Magic? Ranged Damage? Front liner?

If one of those isn't there, I'll run it, or see if I can get someone else to do so. If we still can't fill the gaps - we all know it's there and we try to work around it.

Party balance. It's like character balance. Got a blunt weapon? Got slashing, silver, Cold Iron, AOE, etc. etc.

(edit: the point is, I control what I run - not what you run. Party Balance is important to ME, 'cause I think it "makes us strong". But I am not going to TELL you what to run. If you ask, I'll offer suggestions (sometimes if you don't ask ;) - but if you decide to bring the 3rd Barbarian to the table... sigh. Yeah, I've seen that.)

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:

... If bluff or diplomacy aren't class skills, putting a point or two into them is kinda pointless.

Lets say the dc is 20

If Boogerpicker has a 7 cha, and he puts a point in, his chances go from 0%... to 0%

If he puts 2 points in, he has a 5% chance of making the roll. 3 points 10% chance. If you're only getting 3 skill points per level its a serious investment.

Now thats assuming that booger picker has to make the roll. This is only the case for some faction missions and if booger picker is the party face. So for putting half of his skill points into a skill he has a less than 5% chance of making the roll.

Its simply not worth it.

Agreed. Didn't mean to try and suggest everyone has to be the perfect diplomat.

But are all three int, wis, and cha at 7. Possible sense motive or appraise might be more effective for a particular character in many situations. Do you not have any class skills. Maybe a point into a trained only skill like linguistics or knowledge dungeoneering so checks can at least be attempted?
There were other ways we could have tried to complete the mission. But there were almost no non-combat skills at the table.

Silver Crusade 4/5

I think what you're missing is that forum users don't reflect the playing community at large. The reason there are so many advice threads on here is because there are so many people frustrated by players not doing these things. More people should be better prepared, but they're just not.

It doesn't help that some of the more recent scenarios are less combat focused (like The Disappeared and Blackros Matrimony) than ever before. I loved those adventures, but the people who just like killing stuff are totally unprepared for them.

Liberty's Edge

Yiroep wrote:
...Something for helping diplomacy...a potion of Enhanced Diplomacy? Level 0 spell, gives +2 (edit: not +5, that's what I get for using the numpad) to your next diplomacy check. Touch spell, too, so if someone has it known they can cast it all day.

Kool, where is that. I haven't heard of it before.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yiroep wrote:

As a side note:

Something for helping diplomacy...a potion of Enhanced Diplomacy? Level 0 spell, gives +2 (edit: not +5, that's what I get for using the numpad) to your next diplomacy check. Touch spell, too, so if someone has it known they can cast it all day.

Interesting! Where's that spell from?

4/5

Taldor book.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

It would be, wouldn't it? :P

1/5

I believe the Inner Sea World Guide has Exotic Cologne, which is basically a Masterwork Toolkit for Diplomacy. A good investment for anyone who will be talking for their party.

As far as making sure all of the party rolls are covered, (face, healer, tank, range, etc.) most players I have encountered bring the character they are planning on playing to the session and that’s it. They have preped one character and don’t really plan on options. It would probably go like this:

Player 1: “I’m playing my Big Sword Fighter.”

Player 2: “Do you have a healer or someone with diplomacy? We could really use that.”

Player 1: “Huh? This is the only Society character I have...”

You should never count on others switching up their game plan to help you or the party out. It’s nice when it happens, but you can’t rely on it happening.

4/5

Fromper wrote:


It doesn't help that some of the more recent scenarios are less combat focused (like The Disappeared and Blackros Matrimony) than ever before. I loved those adventures, but the people who just like killing stuff are totally unprepared for them.

I think it's interesting that this is happening at the same time that a lot of people feel that scenarios are getting tougher combats as well. I think some of the "well rounded" confusion comes from this. A character who was well rounded and did well in combat in, say, <insert Season 0 or 1 scenario> might get obliterated in the same tier of <Late Season 3 or Season 4 scenario.>

I think it's a good thing, they're producing a wider range of interesting and challenging adventures. But at the same time, they're not discouraging either the "heavy optimizers" or the "well rounders."

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jiggy wrote:
So... Your job is to keep the dog alive while it does the fighting? That's hilarious. :)

This is pretty much my druids strategy for combat.

One more adventure and he can be a bat hat.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Yiroep wrote:

As a side note:

Something for helping diplomacy...a potion of Enhanced Diplomacy? Level 0 spell, gives +2 (edit: not +5, that's what I get for using the numpad) to your next diplomacy check. Touch spell, too, so if someone has it known they can cast it all day.
Interesting! Where's that spell from?

One thing you need to worry about, is it only lasts a minute, so you have to make it a short conversation after drinking the potion or casting the spell.

Dark Archive 4/5

nosig wrote:

ah... ok, my 2 CP - even if it'll be a waste.

If I am sitting down at the table, I check to see what isn't there.

Got someone with Disable Device? Got a healer? Got a Face? Got Mr. Know-it-All for Knowledge? Detect Magic? Ranged Damage? Front liner?

If one of those isn't there, I'll run it, or see if I can get someone else to do so. If we still can't fill the gaps - we all know it's there and we try to work around it.

Party balance. It's like character balance. Got a blunt weapon? Got slashing, silver, Cold Iron, AOE, etc. etc.

(edit: the point is, I control what I run - not what you run. Party Balance is important to ME, 'cause I think it "makes us strong". But I am not going to TELL you what to run. If you ask, I'll offer suggestions (sometimes if you don't ask ;) - but if you decide to bring the 3rd Barbarian to the table... sigh. Yeah, I've seen that.)

I dont know sometimes its way more fun to have an over abundance of 1 class, I played Masks of the living god with 3 sorcerers and 1 monk, (the boss fight devolved into us killing him in melee combat as we were all out of spells) and im sorry but the image of 3 sorcerers and 1 monk meleeing a BBEG to death was amusing.

For active characters lets see

Fighter 3/rogue 4/hellknight 2 (Large Falcata for fun wearing mithril hellknight plate)

Ranger 2/Rogue 11 (finished EoTT)

Fighter 1/Sorc 2 (going into Dragon disciple to be a self buffing combat fighter)

Fighter 1/Monk 4 (going brother of the seal)

Cleric 5 (Asian themed cleric of Shizuru, focuses on status effect removal, strong channeling vs undead, and able to fight in melee if pressed)

Paladin 2/Inq 1 of Abadar (English knight themed, will go mammoth rider at 10)

Summoner 2 (will be primarily using summon SLA and melee combat, only summoning the eidolon in dire circumstances character isnt finalised yet but he is level 2)

Fighter 1/Wizard 4 (going EK now that purchasing spells has been fixed, was semi retired till then, determining the average power level of EK vs the sorc/DD build).

Of the characters listed above all of them started with 18+ ST on my quest to prove that all classes are viable with 18 strength at level 1.

Next on my list are a grapple focused Barbarian (Archtype undecided tossing up between titan mauler and invunerable rager), and a TWF knife fighting rogue (with the archtype) with 18 ST at level 1.

5/5 5/55/55/5

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:


But are all three int, wis, and cha at 7.

It really doesn't matter. while IRL there's a vast difference between the class nerd and one of the more outgoing kids its not really reflected all that much in the game.

Lets compare Booger and Bowling ball

BoogerPicker: STR: 20 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 7 WIS: 11 CHA: 7
BowlingBall: STR: 16 DEX: 13 CON: 14 INT: 13 WIS: 12 CHA: 12

At level three with 3 ranks into diplomacy vs a dc of 20

Booger has a 10% chance of success (19 or 20)
Bowlingball has a 25% chance of success 16, 17 18 19 20

Not a really big difference. And thats IF you assume that Booger or Bowling need to be the ones making the roll, which is pretty rare. Compare that to how many times Boogerpicker swings his sword and the extra damage he does with it, not to mention how often his blows will cause the party to fail vs. how often the scenario ends because of diplomacy check.

Quote:
Possible sense motive or appraise might be more effective for a particular character in many situations. Do you not have any class skills. Maybe a point into a trained only skill like linguistics or knowledge dungeoneering so checks can at least be attempted?

See above about the low chances of that happening.

The fighting types really DON'T have class skills in the area you're talking about.

Quote:
There were other ways we could have tried to complete the mission. But there were almost no non-combat skills at the table.

Usually the casters have to step up when this happens. A wand of disguise self or invisibility makes you a better disguise person or sneak than ranks in the skill. Charm person can do more than most diplomacy checks.

The Exchange 5/5

Caderyn wrote:
nosig wrote:

ah... ok, my 2 CP - even if it'll be a waste.

If I am sitting down at the table, I check to see what isn't there.

Got someone with Disable Device? Got a healer? Got a Face? Got Mr. Know-it-All for Knowledge? Detect Magic? Ranged Damage? Front liner?

If one of those isn't there, I'll run it, or see if I can get someone else to do so. If we still can't fill the gaps - we all know it's there and we try to work around it.

Party balance. It's like character balance. Got a blunt weapon? Got slashing, silver, Cold Iron, AOE, etc. etc.

(edit: the point is, I control what I run - not what you run. Party Balance is important to ME, 'cause I think it "makes us strong". But I am not going to TELL you what to run. If you ask, I'll offer suggestions (sometimes if you don't ask ;) - but if you decide to bring the 3rd Barbarian to the table... sigh. Yeah, I've seen that.)

I dont know sometimes its way more fun to have an over abundance of 1 class, I played Masks of the living god with 3 sorcerers and 1 monk, (the boss fight devolved into us killing him in melee combat as we were all out of spells) and im sorry but the image of 3 sorcerers and 1 monk meleeing a BBEG to death was amusing.

For active characters ...snipping to save space...

and sometime an over abundance of 1 class means you fail. (more often in my experience). Often fail quickly, and everyone dies. But to each his own...

And I LIKE being the unique PC at the table. If we have Jim, Joe, Jack and Alexander, I want to be Alexander. I walk up to a table and there are 3 players.

Human Barbarian 5th.
Halfling Barbarian (Titan Mauler) 4th
1/2 Orc Barbarian 3/Oracle 2

I sure am not going to play my Dog rider. (Before you laugh, this has happened).

The Exchange 5/5

ThorGN wrote:

I believe the Inner Sea World Guide has Exotic Cologne, which is basically a Masterwork Toolkit for Diplomacy. A good investment for anyone who will be talking for their party.

As far as making sure all of the party rolls are covered, (face, healer, tank, range, etc.) most players I have encountered bring the character they are planning on playing to the session and that’s it. They have preped one character and don’t really plan on options. It would probably go like this:

Player 1: “I’m playing my Big Sword Fighter.”

Player 2: “Do you have a healer or someone with diplomacy? We could really use that.”

Player 1: “Huh? This is the only Society character I have...”

You should never count on others switching up their game plan to help you or the party out. It’s nice when it happens, but you can’t rely on it happening.

As I said, the only person I control what they play is me. So it goes more like this...

ME: I glance around at people at the table - before the judge is here but often after the scenario is picked (we do it odd in St. Louis - don't ask, it's complecated) "What's everyone bringing to the table?"

Player 1(new face): “I’m playing my Big Sword Fighter.”

Player 2 (old face, regular): “Dean - my 2H-weapon fighter. - only thing I have at this tier.”

Player 3 (semi regular) "I've got my Inquiz-a-slinger or a Pally - but he's a bit high for this one."

Me: "Ah... maybe bring The Toaster? my Alchemist? he's got AOE covered, and Ok Knowledges, and Traps - as long as they aren't Magic. does that Inquiz-a-slinger have Detect Magic?"

Player 3: "Yep, picked up a wand of it up last time."

Player 1: “I’m playing my Big Sword Fighter.”

Player 2: "yeah, you can be my backup. OH! and I've got 'Disable Device'!" motions patting greatsword "that's what I named my Adamatine Great Sword".

Me: "we got any Face? Toaster is -4 on Cha skills"

Player 2: "I got Intimadate covered... and heres 'Diplomacy', the cold iron greatsword - " patting motion again.

Me: "yeah - yeah, but - "

Player 1: “I’m playing my Big Sword Fighter.”

Player 3: "I've got a little diplomacy - maybe enough to get by?"

...

But I guess we just do it different here in St. Louis.

When I go out to the weekly game day, I have 3 to 5 games Prepped, but most likely play (all PCs should be ready), but then we don't pick scenarios until we have tables forming.

Dark Archive 4/5

You shouldnt fail just due to an overabundance of 1 role, you might have a rougher time but with adequate consumables you can make virtually any class capable in any role.

Melee heavy parties can go fine in most scenarios, even some of the newer ones, social skills arent impossible to have even with CHA 7 you can have 1 good social skill (by level 5 a +6 - +10 sure a focused high Cha diplomat can have a +20 by then but considering most DC's are in the 15-25 range a +10 is fine), elixirs can give +10 to stealth for 1 hr reasonably cheap which with 0 ranks and dex 14 is a +12 stealth (more than adequate for most stealth missions).

As long as you have a small amount of breadth in each character having specialists for each task isnt essential and for some tasks like social encounters I would rather have all the players participating which when there is an optimised "face" character rarely happens, which is why all my high charisma characters while they have "face" skills rarely take the lead in negotiations I will frequently turn to the newer players and try to get them to have a go at interacting as its a low risk challenge which can make them more involved in the game and their character will become more than a soulless killing machine.

The Exchange 5/5

Caderyn wrote:

You shouldnt fail just due to an overabundance of 1 role, you might have a rougher time but with adequate consumables you can make virtually any class capable in any role.

Melee heavy parties can go fine in most scenarios, even some of the newer ones, social skills arent impossible to have even with CHA 7 you can have 1 good social skill (by level 5 a +6 - +10 sure a focused high Cha diplomat can have a +20 by then but considering most DC's are in the 15-25 range a +10 is fine), elixirs can give +10 to stealth for 1 hr reasonably cheap which with 0 ranks and dex 14 is a +12 stealth (more than adequate for most stealth missions).

As long as you have a small amount of breadth in each character having specialists for each task isnt essential and for some tasks like social encounters I would rather have all the players participating which when there is an optimised "face" character rarely happens, which is why all my high charisma characters while they have "face" skills rarely take the lead in negotiations I will frequently turn to the newer players and try to get them to have a go at interacting as its a low risk challenge which can make them more involved in the game and their character will become more than a soulless killing machine.

Sigh... so many things to reply to here. Yes I agree with some of what you say, but...

No, to many - I have a character to update, and this has been covered and re-covered so many times in other threads.... have a great game people!

Scarab Sages 2/5

Want to see more wizards? Unban scribe scroll and make it wizard only. My first pfs character was a wizard who sat on hs best spell for 3 hours until the BBEG fight, then lost initiative and was little more than a flashy mop up crew.....Figure out how to regulate scribe scroll and watch the wizards pop up.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
nosig wrote:
When I go out to the weekly game day, I have 3 to 5 games Prepped

I am going to say this again... I am so glad I don't live in St Louis, I would most likely quit PFS if I ever moved there... ;)

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
... The fighting types really DON'T have class skills in the area you're talking about. ... Usually the casters have to step up when this happens. A wand of disguise self or invisibility makes you a better disguise person or sneak than ranks in the skill. Charm person can do more than most diplomacy checks. ...

Note: I'm trying to not get too specific, since I don't want to cheese off any of the guys I play with so this doesn't exactly match the group.

I'm not just talking about the fighter class. The druid and battle oracle had no non-combat skills except 1 rank in knowledge nature. The rogue-ish had nothing except sneak skills and perception. None of them had purchased any items to help in any way except higher dps (or sneaking).
According to the GM many of the checks were only 12 or 15. So if anyone had had a point in several of the knowledges or linguistics, would have had at least a halfway decent chance of succeeding.

If the were willing to accept the results of uber spec (if no one has the skills and them's the breaks when you fail) then seems wierd to me but I guess ok if your having fun. But they were getting upset because it wasn't easier for them with their 'great' dps build. It didn't sound like they were having fun.

Liberty's Edge

Fromper wrote:
... The reason there are so many advice threads on here is because there are so many people frustrated by players not doing these things. ...

That made me grin. I never thought about it that way, but yeah it fits.

After the game, I tried to talk to one of the other guys about it. His PC had a weapon, armor, and cloak of resistance. That is very nearly all he had. He was saving mony for when the rules let him buy better of those 3. I mentioned some of those advice threads.

He said, "Oh yeah I've seen those, they're great! I wish more people would read and follow those." I just looked at him for a few minutes then walked away.

Silver Crusade 4/5

I was just leveling up my PCs from the last two times I played/GMed. Looking at my notes, I realized we had a wizard and two clerics at the table the last time I played. And I even agreed with you about those being uncommon classes. I think that's the first non-pregen wizard I've seen since moving to Chicago.

I played a scenario a few weeks ago requiring stealth and bluffing above all else (I think it's the same one Lavode keeps mentioning, but I don't want to give away spoilers), and we had three barbarians at the table. Luckily, we also had my bard, a sorcerer, and a rogue with social/stealth skills. It actually ended up working out great - we rocked the stealthy/social stuff, and the barbarians slaughtered the combats when we finally got to them. It was surprisingly well balanced for a group that had three of the same class and a Prankster Bard as our only healer. Thank Sarenrae I had that wand of Cure Light Wounds!!!

5/5 5/55/55/5

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:


I'm not just talking about the fighter class. The druid and battle oracle had no non-combat skills except 1 rank in knowledge nature.

Druid was raised by wolves. Survival, climb, swim, acrobatics and you're out of skillpoints.

oracles only get 2 sp per level.

Quote:
The rogue-ish had nothing except sneak skills and perception. None of them had purchased any items to help in any way except higher dps (or sneaking).

Most wondrous items tend to be VERY overpriced for what they do, so people avoid them.

Quote:
According to the GM many of the checks were only 12 or 15. So if anyone had had a point in several of the knowledges or linguistics, would have had at least a halfway decent chance of succeeding.

Right, but you'd have to know which knowledges or skills you needed in advance. if you have 2 points, there are 10 knowledge skills. Thats a 1 in 5 chance of getting one of your two knowledge skills. Then figure the 40% chance you have of making the dc 15 check and you're looking at an 8% chance of making a difference that way.

Quote:


If the were willing to accept the results of uber spec (if no one has the skills and them's the breaks when you fail) then seems wierd to me but I guess ok if your having fun. But they were getting upset because it wasn't easier for them with their 'great' dps build. It didn't sound like they were having fun.

The result of a failed skill check is usually not that bad. Your fame usually outpaces your gold anyway, and saving yourself from one resurrection when the dice go bad, you played up, and have a bad group. will more tham make up for the failed missions.

95% of the time you don't need a combat monster.. but that other 5% can be a doozy.

Silver Crusade 2/5

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nosig wrote:


*stuff*
...I want to be Alexander....
*stuff*

AHA! I knew it!

Shadow Lodge 1/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:


I'm not just talking about the fighter class. The druid and battle oracle had no non-combat skills except 1 rank in knowledge nature.

Druid was raised by wolves. Survival, climb, swim, acrobatics and you're out of skillpoints.

oracles only get 2 sp per level.

Oracles get 4 but the point is made. With said druid, you don't put the points in swim and climb at second level, getting some knowledges or perception etc. You also raise (if you can) your con and put your favored class bonus into a skill sometimes. You bring your int up to 12 if you're playing a Sorcerer. Or be human.

You won't be a skill monkey, but there are strategies that make the points go further.
In PFS, never dump int.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
According to the GM many of the checks were only 12 or 15. So if anyone had had a point in several of the knowledges or linguistics, would have had at least a halfway decent chance of succeeding.
Right, but you'd have to know which knowledges or skills you needed in advance. if you have 2 points, there are 10 knowledge skills. Thats a 1 in 5 chance of getting one of your two knowledge skills. Then figure the 40% chance you have of making the dc 15 check and you're looking at an 8% chance of making a difference that way.

You ask a another PC to help you out with the mission. If you have GM with the right temperment and a good rational, suggest another way to accomplish the goal, be it a spell, class ability or what have you. They are supposed to reward creative solutions. Feel free to remind them of that. Unless they are a total jerk (and I've only had one), they're likely think what your doing is cool.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:


If the were willing to accept the results of uber spec (if no one has the skills and them's the breaks when you fail) then seems wierd to me but I guess ok if your having fun. But they were getting upset because it wasn't easier for them with their 'great' dps build. It didn't sound like they were having fun.

The result of a failed skill check is usually not that bad. Your fame usually outpaces your gold anyway, and saving yourself from one resurrection when the dice go bad, you played up, and have a bad group. will more tham make up for the failed missions.

95% of the time you don't need a combat monster.. but that other 5% can be a doozy.

True.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


Druid was raised by wolves. Survival, climb, swim, acrobatics and you're out of skillpoints.

oracles only get 2 sp per level.

But that's what we're talking about. Maybe it's not in social situations, but Survival, Climb, and Swim are all excellent skills for exploring, and pathfinders do a lot of that. You have a way to contribute, and that's what we're asking for.

Oracles only get 2 skills a level, but they already have sky high charisma. a i rank investment, plus 4 for Cha, +3 because you have a trait that makes it a class skill, and you're at a +8. That's actually useful, and you could shove it higher with Eagle's splendor or guidance.

If you're big sword fighter, at least show up with a grappling hook, rope, climber's kit, and a crowbar. Put a rank in swim and climb. Not only will it keep you alive, but you're strong enough to be decent at it.

And I don't believe for a minute that PFS adventures are a total mystery. You will have to do some combination of exploration, gathering information, and battle.

So, if your character can only participate in ONE of those activities, then you're handicapping your own fun by sitting there for 2/3 of the time.

2/5

I'm going to say that most of your issues are the locals. I don't really see any of your issues popping up in my area.

On the side of building generalists vs. specialists, I kind of agree with the side of some classes not being all that easy to generalize, especially early on in their career. I'll use my PFS character as an example. I play a level 2 Half Orc Barbarian. Currently, he is kind of one dimensional. He uses a Falchion and Power Attack and does a ton of damage. In attempts to keep him less than singularly focused on that role, I made him good at intimidation (for socialing) and took a trait to give him Knowledge: Dungeoneering as a class skill. I went so far as to put a rank into that knowledge skill with my favored class bonus. I've yet to use the skill once, but I'm happy I have it cause it makes the character more real to me. Intimidation I've not yet used out of combat because the parties I've been with have wanted to try a diplomatic approach over a threatening one (go go team Charisma...talking our way out of more fights than we could get into). For my other two skill points at first level, I put them in Acrobatics and Perception. Leveling up, my priorities were the same. I need to cover my most used skills before I can branch out and grab other things. Heck, at 3rd when I pick up my first Oracle level, I'll have to skip a rank in Perception (which everyone says you have to max out or you fail :P ) so that I can get a rank in Know: Religion (gotta start my pre reqs for Rage Prophet ya know). And Barbarians and Oracles get 4 skill ranks per level. A Cleric or Fighter gets 2 and there isn't a huge incentive to put a lot of your valuable attribute points into INT for those two classes.

When I started him, before my first scenario I couldn't afford to buy anything to help with healing with buying a 2handed weapon and the best armor I could afford. That almost cost me the character because in my first PFS game I had a Bard (who didn't take CLW as his spell), a Sorcerer and a Rogue, all level 1 without previous scenarios applied to them. The first fight almost had me unconscious and the second one knocked me out. I limped on (we managed to weasel some CLW off an NPC to save me) fighting defensively with a salvaged buckler, but he wasn't playing to his optimal strengths, which is big damage NAO (my GM choked a bit on his coke when he saw me roll 2 1s and say 14 damage during the first fight). It was necessary though because I had to be there for the team, though we had no resources to keep the forntliner standing. It was alright, we got by and the very first thing I did was buy a CLW with 2PP because someone explained to me that it was the best thing you could do for yourself in PFS. If someone hadn't told me, I probably would have not had one in the next scenario when I REALLY needed it. I probably would have bought a few potions with the money I had and limped on.

I feel like I'm a pretty knowledgeable player and I took some time to read a bit here before playing, but I have the luxury of free time that a lot of people may not have if they for example have 2 kids and a 60hr/wk job and they only get to do PFS stuff once or twice a month when their area has a game day. And/or if you're coming from home gaming and are used to the party having the internal balance where you only have to worry about upholding your role while the rest of the team does their role you're not going to be as prepared to be well rounded as needed in PFS.

As for faction missioning, there are times when it sucks but you just aren't going to be able to complete it. A lot of them is have this skill or fail, and sometimes that skill is Knowledge: Geography and your party has no Bards (true story). The funny thing to me is that in my only, thus far, failed faction mission, the GM seemed more upset for not getting the completion than I was over it, though it could of been because I would have been made blind and deaf if I had completed it :D

Liberty's Edge

Drogos wrote:
I'm going to say that most of your issues are the locals. I don't really see any of your issues popping up in my area ...

That seems to be the general consensus. Which I think is good news.

Drogos wrote:
... On the side of building generalists vs. specialists, I kind of agree with the side of some classes not being all that easy to generalize, especially early on in their career. ...

I understand that. And yet in your example you do have a couple of points in something even fairly early. You also bought a wand of CLW. You sound like the type that also might buy a potion of lesser restoration and a few vials of acid. May be a potion of disguise self or potion of glibness.

I'm talking about 4th to 6th level characters that have nothing except weapon, armor, cloak of resistance, and maybe a backup weapon. Not even a potion of cure light wounds. They are just assuming it is someone elses responsibility and that there will be someone else present with the capability and willingness to use it up on them.

Drogos wrote:
... As for faction missioning, there are times when it sucks but you just aren't going to be able to complete it. A lot of them is have this skill or fail, and sometimes that skill is Knowledge: Geography and your party has no Bards (true story). ...

Perfectly reasonable attitude. After 15+ sessions, if you make a build with little to no skills you should probably expect that you will have troubles with faction missions. These same players seem quite upset that they couldn't complete their faction mission. Even though their build gave them no chance for almost any mission except hoping someone else can complete it for them.

Drogos wrote:
... though it could of been because I would have been made blind and deaf if I had completed it :D

Wow, that is messed up. And would have been funny as all get out!

2/5

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:

I understand that. And yet in your example you do have a couple of points in something even fairly early. You also bought a wand of CLW. You sound like the type that also might buy a potion of lesser restoration and a few vials of acid. May be a potion of disguise self or potion of glibness.

I'm talking about 4th to 6th level characters that have nothing except weapon, armor, cloak of resistance, and maybe a backup weapon. Not even a potion of cure light wounds. They are just assuming it is someone elses responsibility and that there will be someone else present with the capability and willingness to use it up on them.

It's true that I did hamper some of my potential power to pick up a skill for background reasons. But I'm not sure I would make that same decision if I were playing a Fighter or Cleric. Giving up that extra HP or racial variant for an extra skill point doesn't immediately strike one in the face as the obvious choice, especially when you haven't played PFS before.

As for your particular players, I have no clue how they made it past level 2...and I'm assuming they did First Steps to get there. It could just that the majority of your playerbase is okay with them passing the buck when it comes to being self sufficient. If that's the case, then it's a local culture issue. The only fix to that type of play is to make the character suffer in play for poor choices like that. I know that when I pick up my Oracle lvl, I'm going to be using my wand on me primarily. If someone else wants to be healed to full, they best have brought their own wand. If they don't, well, I won't let them die, but I don't have to ensure they are topped off at the cost of my equipment. I'll suggest they pony up 2 PP there and then to get their own CLW wand that I'll happily only use on them unless they give me permission otherwise. One of your mandates as a Pathfinder is cooperation, not servitude, which is what I would call burning your gold to save someone who is too lazy to do something about saving their own bacon. A couple times of sitting at less than full HP will make them think about doing something to make sure they have that covered. I'm not advocating being a jerk, but I think that street goes both ways. They need to be willing to meet you halfway down the street and not be a leech to the party members who thought about taking care of themselves.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
nosig wrote:
When I go out to the weekly game day, I have 3 to 5 games Prepped
I am going to say this again... I am so glad I don't live in St Louis, I would most likely quit PFS if I ever moved there... ;)

What?! Why?! St. Louis has some of the best GMs I have ever played with. I would take Brett Sweeny over most 4 and 5 stars any day. We also have a core of former Paragon judges back from LG/LC days. We have two weekly PFS nights and 1 game day. Our "PFS Game Days" are big enough to have prize support. I have been to other places and I will gladly take St. Louis. Are we perfect, far from it, but we will never turn a new person away and we have awesome judges and a great gaming community.

@Nosig, I think your exaggerating a bit. I have come prepped the past 2 weeks and haven't had any trouble with getting a table together. You might want to join the Facebook group, since you can post there and tell what your going to be playing. I have done that every time I have run something and there have been no problems.

@ the OP
Our PFS community totally goes in cycles, the current one is "where is the healer" we have like 7 clerics/life oracles that are level 6 and above.

The next is going to be "we need to have control" where wizards and witches will come out of the wood work like crazy.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Ill_Made_Knight wrote:
What?! Why?!

I am sure the people are great there, it has nothing to do with the players or GMs, but to do with the way you schedule your games... You don't...

Though I have run my small share of un-prepared PFS games I don't like doing it and if that became a common occurrence I just would not play or GM any more.

I know it works for you guys, but you that is not the Norm.

4/5

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
May be a potion of disguise self or potion of glibness.

Just want to point this out because I always forget, but don't think you can make potions for spells with a range of Personal.

1/5 Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover

redward wrote:
My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
May be a potion of disguise self or potion of glibness.
Just want to point this out because I always forget, but don't think you can make potions for spells with a range of Personal.

No potions yes. But you can have a wand.

4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:


3) In most campaigns, you know where the party is going. If your party decides to investigate the gnoll mountains , you load up on charm person and color spray. If you're going to Ghasty's haunted house of undead fun and excitement you ditch those spells.

In PFS your characters are often given no time to prepare. This cuts down on the usefulness of a wizards spell preparation method.

I want to rebut this point. Your character may not know what the mission is until you're going on it, but if you read the session blurb that's presented before going to the session, you have at least a rough idea of what you're going against. Ex.: Tide of Twilight tells you that you're going to be facing bestial men and probably druids and that it's outdoors. That's a lot of information to work with right there. Some missions, like ToT, have travel time in them, as well, so your character would reasonably know to prep certain things.

1/5

Agree on the blurb.

Nosig commonly reads the blurbs before every mission to the table (If he has a copy). It is very helpful. When a venture captain puts together a team of pathfinders to go on a mission, they probably don't just walk into the mess hall and grab the first 4-7 pathfinders they see. From a game point, this is not something that the table judge can do but the players can. They can read the blurb and decide to an extent which of their characters best fits the mission and the rest of the table.

Liberty's Edge

Hayato Ken wrote:
redward wrote:
My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
May be a potion of disguise self or potion of glibness.
Just want to point this out because I always forget, but don't think you can make potions for spells with a range of Personal.
No potions yes. But you can have a wand.

I'm 98% sure I have a potion of disguise self on my chronicle sheet from one of the events. I will check when home.

Liberty's Edge

Lab_Rat wrote:

Agree on the blurb.

Nosig commonly reads the blurbs before every mission to the table (If he has a copy). It is very helpful. When a venture captain puts together a team of pathfinders to go on a mission, they probably don't just walk into the mess hall and grab the first 4-7 pathfinders they see. From a game point, this is not something that the table judge can do but the players can. They can read the blurb and decide to an extent which of their characters best fits the mission and the rest of the table.

Maybe disagree on the blurb.

As far as I know, our local does not have any posted schedule that I can tell what scenarios will be available on Sundays.
I will check with a couple of the guys next time.

5/5 5/55/55/5

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:
redward wrote:
My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
May be a potion of disguise self or potion of glibness.
Just want to point this out because I always forget, but don't think you can make potions for spells with a range of Personal.
No potions yes. But you can have a wand.
I'm 98% sure I have a potion of disguise self on my chronicle sheet from one of the events. I will check when home.

Its an error. I think they officially said to change it to a scroll.

The Exchange 5/5

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:

Agree on the blurb.

Nosig commonly reads the blurbs before every mission to the table (If he has a copy). It is very helpful. When a venture captain puts together a team of pathfinders to go on a mission, they probably don't just walk into the mess hall and grab the first 4-7 pathfinders they see. From a game point, this is not something that the table judge can do but the players can. They can read the blurb and decide to an extent which of their characters best fits the mission and the rest of the table.

Maybe disagree on the blurb.

As far as I know, our local does not have any posted schedule that I can tell what scenarios will be available on Sundays.
I will check with a couple of the guys next time.

In St. Louis we normally don't work with a posted schedule - but I just bring a print-out of all the scenario blurbs (my wife printed seasons 0 thru 3 for me, still need to do season 4) so I just look it up before we even get a judge at out table. It does help to also decide on which scenario we want to play - as we have the flexability to just switch scenarios at the table before we start. If I don't have the print out, we often just look it up online. We do this at the table, before the judge arrives.

(for example, when we were going to play Heresy of Man 1, we had a cleric at the table that stated she would not play that due to the Blurb. So we switched scenarios, read the new blurb and continued. Worked fast and easy.)

4/5

nosig wrote:
My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:

Agree on the blurb.

Nosig commonly reads the blurbs before every mission to the table (If he has a copy). It is very helpful. When a venture captain puts together a team of pathfinders to go on a mission, they probably don't just walk into the mess hall and grab the first 4-7 pathfinders they see. From a game point, this is not something that the table judge can do but the players can. They can read the blurb and decide to an extent which of their characters best fits the mission and the rest of the table.

Maybe disagree on the blurb.

As far as I know, our local does not have any posted schedule that I can tell what scenarios will be available on Sundays.
I will check with a couple of the guys next time.

In St. Louis we normally don't work with a posted schedule - but I just bring a print-out of all the scenario blurbs (my wife printed seasons 0 thru 3 for me, still need to do season 4) so I just look it up before we even get a judge at out table. It does help to also decide on which scenario we want to play - as we have the flexability to just switch scenarios at the table before we start. If I don't have the print out, we often just look it up online. We do this at the table, before the judge arrives.

(for example, when we were going to play Heresy of Man 1, we had a cleric at the table that stated she would not play that due to the Blurb. So we switched scenarios, read the new blurb and continued. Worked fast and easy.)

The Minneapolis/St. Paul PFS crew works off of MeetUp and posts everything in advance, requires RSVP, etc. I suppose that would make a pretty major difference in terms of usage.

Dark Archive

BigNorseWolf wrote:
My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:


But are all three int, wis, and cha at 7.

It really doesn't matter. while IRL there's a vast difference between the class nerd and one of the more outgoing kids its not really reflected all that much in the game.

Lets compare Booger and Bowling ball

BoogerPicker: STR: 20 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 7 WIS: 11 CHA: 7
BowlingBall: STR: 16 DEX: 13 CON: 14 INT: 13 WIS: 12 CHA: 12

At level three with 3 ranks into diplomacy vs a dc of 20

Booger has a 10% chance of success (19 or 20)
Bowlingball has a 25% chance of success 16, 17 18 19 20

Not a really big difference. And thats IF you assume that Booger or Bowling need to be the ones making the roll, which is pretty rare. Compare that to how many times Boogerpicker swings his sword and the extra damage he does with it, not to mention how often his blows will cause the party to fail vs. how often the scenario ends because of diplomacy check.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. 1 in 4 chance of sucess instead of 1 in 10 chance of sucess is a pretty huge difference.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Victor Zajic wrote:
I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. 1 in 4 chance of sucess instead of 1 in 10 chance of sucess is a pretty huge difference.

Not when you factor in how often someone with only a 1 in 4 chance of success is going to be called in to make the roll.

Its a catch 22. You want to have your limited skillpoints in the skills you roll most often, but those are also the skills that your party members are most likely to pick up. Bowling ball is completely eclipsed out of the role of party face if there is a bard, cleric, sorcerer, rogue, or inquisitor in the party with even one rank in diplomacy (or even a sorcerer without a rank in diplomacy) If its random with 4 party members, its a 1 in 16 chance of making a difference vs 1 in 40 chance of making a difference (ie, it will happen once in your pfs career if you're lucky). More likely its a 1 in 100 chance vs a 1 in 200 chance.

Now for this, bowling ball has lost a whopping +2 to hit and +2 or 3 to damage.

There really are valid reasons why people are playing like this. The violence is inherent in the system.

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