Anonymity and Disguise


Pathfinder Online

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Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

There wouldn't really be a need for /anon since everyone would start at a base state of anonymous and the disguise mechanics would handle the function of re-instating an anonymous condition (even though there would be possibilities for people to see past the disguise)


My dislike od the system still stands. It make things far more complicated then they need to be. Don't get me wrong there are some amazing ideas here. But this is a lot of extra development work for something that mifht be a huge tuen off for a lot of players. That do not roleplay whixh is typically rhe majority player base of mmos.

Goblin Squad Member

ahem..
what exactly do we want to achieve with anonymity and disguises
Is the goal immersion/RP only, or an effect on game mechanics and AI behaviour?

Do we want to give criminals the ability to avoid NPC guard aggro by disguising as someone else?
Do we want situations where you are followed by someone but don't know who because you never learned their name?

If we just want the RP, how about:
name is always available, but /introduce reveals more information
-the formal introduction adds you to my info tab (think "friends tab")
-without the introduction i know only your name, with the introduction i know your settlement and kingdom, your title, maybe your highest achievement/merit badge, maybe a self-defined 'slogan'
-we could make the info not automatically update, but require /chat (or /gossip) commands

example:
before introduction, you know me only as Randomwalker
after introduction, you know me as: Master Randomwalker of Crafter's Cove, expert light armorer, slogan:"quality leather armor for sale"

If we want the ability to trick AI (and other players?) with disguise, how about:
predefined disguise kits
-the disguise kit changes your name to whatever the disguise kit says. An "echo wood bandit" kit is different from a "halfling tavern wench" kit.
-wearer doesn't innately know if wievers are tricked or not.
-chances for players and npc's to see through disguise depends on perception/knowledge/whatever, wearers disguise skills, quality of kit and modifiers for gender/race/size/etc.
-disguises are craftable consumable items
-some actions ("inspect", the disguised party changing gear, being attacked, committing crime, etc) should have a large chance of foiling the disguise

-bonus: illusions could work in very similar ways.

Goblin Squad Member

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randomwalker wrote:
what exactly do we want to achieve with anonymity and disguises

A very good question.

For my part, the answer is mostly "Immersion", with a smattering of "new and interesting gameplay dynamics".

I'd be okay with a Disguise Kit that changed your visible name. However, that still causes a lot of the problems people have already brought up. If you're going to have to deal with those problems, why do so for a half-measure?

Goblin Squad Member

maybe not clear enough on the Disguise Kits:

in addition to changing your visible name, they would also make AI treat you as displayed type/name, ie paladins attack innocents in "echo wood bandit" kit, but not criminal trespassers with "tavern wench" kit (this would make them good for PVE scouting).

and maybe also
-make you appear as NPC type on minimaps, hide your reputation etc.
-be illegal to use in player settlements...

this should be much easier to handle server side than the related stealth issue.

as for immersion.. i am able to recognize RL people by their looks better than i recognize MMO characters by their name. Hiding names makes UI look good but breaks my immersion by me often not having a clue if the guy i'm talking to is the same guy i talked to an hour ago. An /introduction system like i outlined above would let me check if this is someone i would recognize and when i last /chatted with him.

Goblin Squad Member

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have floating names or some other system to indicate characters you recognize.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have floating names or some other system to indicate characters you recognize.

I think every solution that has been suggested includes some way of making this happen.


Dakcenturi wrote:
I would be curious what other issues you might think of (I'm sure there are others) so we can try and address them.

If everyone is anon it makes it more difficult to find a char that sells stuff. As a crafter/merchant I'd like the option to advertise myself. (Snowbeard, Vendor: Wondrous Items) Anonymity does me no good. If I had to sell everything thru an AH then anon isn't such a big deal.

Ever tried to find/follow the leader in a raid when you can't see names? I've tried the turn off names option and it makes stuff really difficult. ('Course its hard to find/follow a leader when there's 49 blue names floatin around too) If PUGS were easy to get into then anon might not be so bad.

Pinosaur wrote:

so nameplates are not the only way to know who your enemy is.

They ruin stealth too.

There could be a mechanic for this. When someone goes stealth a floaty name should be part of the stealth - unseen by those who can't see you, seen by those who can. Same for invisibility. For wildshape the thing you have shaped into should be visible (if monsters have name plates at all) so your nameplate might say ent or wolf. If someone was detecting plants or animals around you then your name should show. But I am not a techie so I don't know if this is a feasible load or not.

Goblin Squad Member

Snowbeard wrote:
Dakcenturi wrote:
I would be curious what other issues you might think of (I'm sure there are others) so we can try and address them.
If everyone is anon it makes it more difficult to find a char that sells stuff. As a crafter/merchant I'd like the option to advertise myself. (Snowbeard, Vendor: Wondrous Items) Anonymity does me no good. If I had to sell everything thru an AH then anon isn't such a big deal.

This for me is actually a good thing. People who are trying to sell stuff...obviously want to sell stuff, so they will do thinks to promote their ability. Specifically, a good solution is have everyone trying to sell stuff gather at the same place at the same time...aka, a market. Then, we the customers can browse the market and we the customers can pit merchants against each other to find the best deals. Hawk your wares...this sounds like an awesome dynamic to me.

Snowbeard wrote:
Ever tried to find/follow the leader in a raid when you can't see names? I've tried the turn off names option and it makes stuff really difficult. ('Course its hard to find/follow a leader when there's 49 blue names floatin around too) If PUGS were easy to get into then anon might not be so bad.

Every suggestion for anonymity has a solution which enables people to either automatically exchange information which can then, if enabled, show as a nameplate, and/or have a way for players to enter information that will then be displayed as a nameplate. The point is that the nameplates show what you are told (or what you decide to put)...either true or false. This allows for previously unknown dynamics in social interactions in an MMO.

Goblin Squad Member

KitNyx wrote:
This for me is actually a good thing. People who are trying to sell stuff...obviously want to sell stuff, so they will do thinks to promote their ability. Specifically, a good solution is have everyone trying to sell stuff gather at the same place at the same time...aka, a market. Then, we the customers can browse the market and we the customers can pit merchants against each other to find the best deals. Hawk your wares...this sounds like an awesome dynamic to me.

Great idea!

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

@KitNyx Thanks for responding.

Yes, this isn't meant to completely get rid of nameplates. The intent is to not have nameplates as a default state for everyone. Then as people introduce themselves, group, write their own names for other people, or potentially become famous/infamous then there nameplate would be displayable to the appropriate parties (ie the ones they've grouped with, introduced themselves to, etc)

Goblin Squad Member

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Darsch wrote:

I love some of the ideas i have seen here, realy i do. but to make the game a total no names displayed what so ever is a big turn off to me.

I could care less if I can see your name, if we are role playing, I do not know your name until you say it. and then I have to take your word at it. That's good role play. To hide names for that reason is pointless, personally I would prefer my name displayed and soon as someone comes up to rp with me and the say "Hi, Darsch!" and I have never met them before, nor has any of my friends, I know then that they are poor rp companions and to avoid rp with them.

If names are not displayable to a client, how am I supposed to send a PM to the person to let them know I am guarding their husk? How am i supposed to identify that crafter I spoke to once that gave me an awesome deal and had to log out before I could get his name and vice verse?

how am I supposed to distinguish john doe in the forest running by chasing someone when I cast an aoe spell? how do I avoid accidentally attacking the wrong person?

No names creates just as many problems as it solves.

Now I do see disguises as a wonderful way for those that need to keep their names hidden as a good way to do that, incognito was a wonderful spell in UO that changed your name to something random, changed your shape, sex, and appearance.

I vote for a /anon option.

I have to ask.....How do you deal with this in real life? Or do you see floating names above everyone???

Goblin Squad Member

Could always make friends with the blank people so they have name tags.

Goblin Squad Member

I agree with this 100%. I want nameplates to display 1) if I choose them and 2) AFTER i have met someone. Meaning if I meet someone in disguise and I don't see through it, I take that name they gave me and that is ho w I know them. If I meet them later without the disguise on then they are "a new person" to me cause I know the disguise. If I meet them and add to friendslist or whatever, it would be a 2nd entry, though the server would know they are the same account just disguised.

I personnally want this because I love RP and this would add to that, and also due to my character's profession and choice of lifestyle, being a stealthy unknown type. Being an assassin means I don't want to be known except by my targets as I am about to end their life. And even then, they would only know my blade.....

Side note, about a wildshaped druid, if your in animal form, you should be labled as any other NPC animal of that type and if you stay that way and are killed, I think you revert to humaniod form but no flags or anything to the killer as they "didn't know" UNLESS they saw you shapeshift and killed you afterwards. Looting would then be dealth with as a moral decision. Looting would be like the thief tag, or maybe just a evil hit. The killing wouldn't becaus you could just be hunting and didn't know it was a druid. It happens. but the looting is a choice and choosing to do so would be evil. Just my thoughts on it.

Goblin Squad Member

..or if they saw your true form with truesight or similar.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
..or if they saw your true form with truesight or similar.

... what if the badger tells you its not really a badger ... I mean you know what lying things badgers can be ...

Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:
Being wrote:
..or if they saw your true form with truesight or similar.
... what if the badger tells you its not really a badger ... I mean you know what lying things badgers can be ...

You mean ferrets. Never trust a skinny innkeeper or a ferret my grandpappy used to say...

Goblin Squad Member

Would be nice if you could have like 10 presets for a disguise or alter self spells

Goblin Squad Member

What if disguise mimics npcs?

Instead of disguise giving you a different name plate, which would still mark you as a PC. Why not have disguise give you no name plate or one that matches the look and nomenclature of an NPC?

Part of the disguise would obviously include the clothing of that NPC type, so that you would blend into the crowd as desired.

I personally hope that we do not have to have the floating tags. The reasons are the same that have been discussed here already.

Plus, other MMOs have this already (TSW, and probably many others).

But the main reason is this...

Computer / Graphics Card Processing Resources. PFO is being designed to be the same as EvE's one server model. Imagine 2000 players in one town, all with name + company + flags floating over their heads! Talk about Lag Fest!!

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:


Computer / Graphics Card Processing Resources. PFO is being designed to be the same as EvE's one server model. Imagine 2000 players in one town, all with name + company + flags floating over their heads! Talk about Lag Fest!!

PFO is also essentially matching eve's world size. IE 133 square miles for 4500 players. Once settlements start getting made, the odds of 2,000 people being in the same square mile, let alone same city, should be unheard of.

As far as lag city... I don't beleive the names are a huge increase of lag. I'm no expert but 2,000 5 word tags, is a very small factor when trying to render 2,000 characters + armor + weapons etc...

Goblin Squad Member

In my experience with zergs you will gain a significant performance boosts just turning off all those names.

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:

PFO is also essentially matching eve's world size. IE 133 square miles for 4500 players. Once settlements start getting made, the odds of 2,000 people being in the same square mile, let alone same city, should be unheard of.

As far as lag city... I don't beleive the names are a huge increase of lag. I'm no expert but 2,000 5 word tags, is a very small factor when trying to render 2,000 characters + armor + weapons etc...

Impossible, to bold type... You can't have an idea of how large EVE Online is.

You are also only thinking of 4500 players in one square mile, but what will that ratio be when there are 100,000 players online at once, on one server?

If PFO is not thinking about lag pools, that are trade hubs, they should consider this.

They need to have auction houses, banks and mail boxes in every community, large and small. This is for the sole purpose of limiting lag. Forget about immersion for a moment, and recall the lag spins, rubber banding and crash to desk tops that made WoW nearly unplayable for its first 3 weeks after launch.

Goblin Squad Member

@ Bluddwolf I agree, in this case immersion may be secondary in comparison to the lag issues. We can always think of some "logical" explanation to that mail boxes etc being distributed all over the settlements.


Sunwader wrote:
Would be nice if you could have like 10 presets for a disguise or alter self spells

I think the player should provide his own disguise. Otherwise we'll soon have a list on the net that says beware of butchers with a bloodstained apron, an old lady with a silver cane, and 8 others.

Bluddwolf wrote:
Instead of disguise giving you a different name plate, which would still mark you as a PC. Why not have disguise give you no name plate or one that matches the look and nomenclature of an NPC?

I like the NPC tag, but assigning your own gives the player more control. If I'm carrying out a hit on the high priest I might want my name to read Brother Joe and wear brown robes so I fit in, rather than D'Lorian or town cryer.

And makes them have to research their victim. If I wear brown robes and the real Brothers are all in white, well, someone might get a little suspicious. But if I'm Brother Joe in white robes, well, a bit of research might be a good thing.
I have no idea how alter self could work though. Maybe some sort of click, paste, copy..?

Goblin Squad Member

Snowbeard wrote:
Sunwader wrote:
Would be nice if you could have like 10 presets for a disguise or alter self spells
I think the player should provide his own disguise. Otherwise we'll soon have a list on the net that says beware of butchers with a bloodstained apron, an old lady with a silver cane, and 8 others.

I'm pretty sure he means custom made preset disguises, so you don't have to make one up every time you disguise yourself.

Could be wrong, though.


Bluddwolf wrote:

What if disguise mimics npcs?

Instead of disguise giving you a different name plate, which would still mark you as a PC. Why not have disguise give you no name plate or one that matches the look and nomenclature of an NPC?

Part of the disguise would obviously include the clothing of that NPC type, so that you would blend into the crowd as desired.

I personally hope that we do not have to have the floating tags. The reasons are the same that have been discussed here already.

Unless NPCs are going to be a lot more impressive than I have ever seen in an MMO (which I'm not ruling out), then those disguises would be almost immediately seen through by PC just from observing their movements. Don't you think?

I like the idea of being able to set up a number of preset disguises to choose from, but I think that looking like an NPC would not be terribly effective, unfortunately.


The-Mage-King wrote:

I'm pretty sure he means custom made preset disguises, so you don't have to make one up every time you disguise yourself.

Could be wrong, though.

No, I think you are right and that is what he meant. And that is what I hope doesn't happen. I don't believe the AI can intuit what disguise is perfect for what I want or need to pull off my mission to assassinate your settlement's leader. 10 disguises, while manageable by the AI and not being too burdensome for the devs, is way too few. I have to fool you with my disguise, not just the server. By placing control in my hands not only am I responsible for how well I pull it off but it creates player generated content for me and others (crafters for the robes, sandles, rope belt, holy symbol, etc., a barber for the tonseur, etc) If the AI generates it for me, it takes away from player generated content and interaction. PFO's job is to give us the pen (tools) - it's our job to scribe the story (paper).

Pre-made disguises is theme park - this is a sandbox. If everything is done for you it's too easy. In a sandbox you need to use your imagination.

Two things people don't seem to get is that your skills are going to increase even if you aren't hacking and slashing, and that sandbox players have a responsibility to create content for each other. It's not PnP where you only level by killing things.

Could be wrong, though. :)

Goblin Squad Member

It will certainly be interesting if you could wander around looking like say an impoverished low level healer in robes to everyone without true seeing ... but actually be a full blown level 20 equivalent battle cleric in heavy armor.

Goblin Squad Member

Snowbeard wrote:
The-Mage-King wrote:

I'm pretty sure he means custom made preset disguises, so you don't have to make one up every time you disguise yourself.

Could be wrong, though.

No, I think you are right and that is what he meant. And that is what I hope doesn't happen. I don't believe the AI can intuit what disguise is perfect for what I want or need to pull off my mission to assassinate your settlement's leader. 10 disguises, while manageable by the AI and not being too burdensome for the devs, is way too few. I have to fool you with my disguise, not just the server. By placing control in my hands not only am I responsible for how well I pull it off but it creates player generated content for me and others (crafters for the robes, sandles, rope belt, holy symbol, etc., a barber for the tonseur, etc) If the AI generates it for me, it takes away from player generated content and interaction. PFO's job is to give us the pen (tools) - it's our job to scribe the story (paper).

Pre-made disguises is theme park - this is a sandbox. If everything is done for you it's too easy. In a sandbox you need to use your imagination.

Two things people don't seem to get is that your skills are going to increase even if you aren't hacking and slashing, and that sandbox players have a responsibility to create content for each other. It's not PnP where you only level by killing things.

Could be wrong, though. :)

...

Yeah, you're misinterpreting. I said custom made presets. So each player has a pool for their own custom disguises to be set in, so they can just click whatever they use to disguise, and not be forced to make a new one every time they use that ability.

Goblin Squad Member

The-Mage-King wrote:
Snowbeard wrote:
Sunwader wrote:
Would be nice if you could have like 10 presets for a disguise or alter self spells
I think the player should provide his own disguise. Otherwise we'll soon have a list on the net that says beware of butchers with a bloodstained apron, an old lady with a silver cane, and 8 others.

I'm pretty sure he means custom made preset disguises, so you don't have to make one up every time you disguise yourself.

Could be wrong, though.

Yeh, I would imagine that if you want to infiltrate a given settlement or work a diplomatic angle or maybe you need to present yourself in a special way to engage in business you will have like a preset look and present yourself as a given identity.

I.E. Hey I'm Gunner the dwarven blacksmith, or I'm shayna the elven priestess or whatever :)


The-Mage-King wrote:


Yeah, you're misinterpreting. I said custom made presets. So each player has a pool for their own custom disguises to be set in, so they can just click whatever they use to disguise, and not be forced to make a new one every time they use that ability.

My bad. I see how you and Sunwader meant it now. Sunwader just said presets in the first post and I got hung up there and...well anyway. The player makes (purchases) what they want to use for disguises and creates a list of disguises (identities). Player selects what disguise they want to use from the list. Makes sense to me and avoids suspicous behavior of running to the bank to swap outfits. Plus, could be an interesting way to slip into a crowd and make a getaway - Brother J darts around a corner, strips his robe and becomes Bob the butcher. Thanks for clarifying - I like the idea. There is a limit to "where" (pun intended) micromanagement becomes tedious.

I promise I'll stop writing in the wee hours of the night.

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

Yeah I think being able to package your disguises would be great. Maybe even have a notes section for disguises so you can log information about when you used it and who you used it for etc, so you could keep track of all your different disguises.

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

So with the latest blog they noted that alignment is going to be an identifier of players.

While only semi-related to the discussion here I wanted to bring this up as a point in this discussion. How should alignment identification be handled in regards to attempting to uphold anonymity and/or disguise?

Does the latest blog mean that there won't be ways to hide your alignment, or that everyone will know everyone's alignment at the start?

I still believe that functionality behind anonymity and disguise could provide meaningful value to the PFO experience and would love to see any thoughts the devs have on the above.

Goblin Squad Member

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IMO reading someone's alignment should flag someone as attacker or other flag. It is considered at least rude to go everywhere scanning people to know their alignment.

Goblin Squad Member

I agree with the concern of the last 2 posts. I am a bit concerned regarding my well liked in his community aristocrat with a leaning for poisoning a few number of people. Regardless of if i assasinate the target with a bounty on them or not, I will put up my assassin flag and possibly showing my evil alignment. Yet, how am I supposed to keep my poisonous activites from my community? Even if I only devote 5% of my time poisoning people, 45% crafting and selling and 50% socializing, the normal part of my life (95%) will suffer from people knowing about the assassin flag and the alignement showing.


Dakcenturi wrote:

While only semi-related to the discussion here I wanted to bring this up as a point in this discussion. How should alignment identification be handled in regards to attempting to uphold anonymity and/or disguise?

Does the latest blog mean that there won't be ways to hide your alignment, or that everyone will know everyone's alignment at the start?

I still believe that functionality behind anonymity and disguise could provide meaningful value to the PFO experience and would love to see any thoughts the devs have on the above.

Kinda depends on systems they employ - will soft skills like sense motive, knowledge (local) be in game and trainable? Will spells like know alignment be in? How long will it take to reset skill slots - If I can only reset skills every hour I might not want to use a slot for more info on my compadres.

I think it should cost something to scan someone's alignment. I kinda agree with LordD that getting checked is like being attacked, but it isn't considered such in PF guidebk. Definitely feels like being groped every time I get my credit history checked tho. So maybe it costs a rep point to do a body scan?

Goblin Squad Member

@ Andros

If I understood it correctly, the assassin flag will be the only one you can hide.

Goblin Squad Member

LordDaeron wrote:

@ Andros

If I understood it correctly, the assassin flag will be the only one you can hide.

Out of curiosity, where are you seeing that? I didn't get that from reading the blog.

Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:
LordDaeron wrote:

@ Andros

If I understood it correctly, the assassin flag will be the only one you can hide.

Out of curiosity, where are you seeing that? I didn't get that from reading the blog.

Sorry I missunderstood you will be able to hide yourself with bonus, what work almost as the same I guess (if you succeed the hide attempt of course.

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

@Andros Yeah this is my concern as well. A perfect example is in the Rise of the Runelords Adventure path Spoiler alert! If you plan to play or are in the process of playing RotRL and don't want a potential RP moment ruined skip the spoiler section

Spoiler:
In the second part of the adventure you come across Justice Ironbriar who is heading up a cult of murderers in Magnimar, who also happens to be a member of the cities Justice council.

If you can have someone be a prominent member of a community while actually doing bad things on the side in the actual Pathfinder game then I would hope it would also be possible to do so in PFO.

That is actually a pretty big plot point you commonly see where said important person of this great place or group is actually a really bad guy manipulating the system to his own ends.

Goblin Squad Member

@Andros, why would you be walking around with your assassin flag when not prepping for/on an assassination job?

Goblin Squad Member

@Dario, I got the impression that all of the long-term effects were intended to create incentives for players to have them on all the time, in order to be at the max-level buffs they offer.

Goblin Squad Member

It's only 10 hours for the max level buff, and resets if you get the Attacker flag (say, if the target has a guard). You only have to have it up for an hour to get the Rep bonus, and there's no mention of a minimum time at all for the primary benefit of severing respawn point connections.

If you want to be Hackfist the Notorious Assassin, you're going to walk around with the flag and get the maximum buff. If you want to stay under the radar and not be known as an Assassin, you're going to turn it off when you're not assassinating, and only flag an hour or two before the kill for the buff.

Edit for spelling, and also to add: It seems like "Long Term" really means anything lasting longer than a couple minutes at this point.

Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:
It's only 10 hours for the max level buff...

Exactly. You have to have the Flag active for 10 hours before you get the max buff. If you let it reset, you'll have to wait another 10 hours before you get the max buff again. Therefore, there's an incentive to leave it on all the time so you always have the max buff.

Goblin Squad Member

@Dario, sorry. I realize now that I was addressing the general question you seemed to be asking, rather than the specific case you were referencing from Andros's post.

Goblin Squad Member

Nah, in general, I think a lot of people *are* going to leave it on all or most of the time for the buff. =P He was just asking how he could be an assassin sometime without everyone knowing it.

Goblin Squad Member

Dario, actually, I was refering to having the assassin flag for an hour (or less!), and not for the bonus but to avoid the serious penalities. But the big problem is that the person I will kill will know that it was me who did it and my cover will be blown as soon as I raise the assasin flag and kill my first target. Unless I misunderstood the various blog posts and we can really assasinate someone without them knowing who did it after their death.


I'm not sure if you could ever kill and remain unknown... the whole part about bounties and death curses stated that when you are killed, all the offenders involved will show up on a list and you'll be able to set up a bounty/curse through that interface.

...Unless GW chooses to exempt bounties being collected from that mechanic. So for example: I take up a bounty to kill "John". I kill "John to satisfy the bounty. "John" can not put a bounty/curse on me for acting out the bounty.

^ This is a problem though, because I expect there to be some rather infamous bounty hunters in the game that should be the focus of some player's wrath. It would give the Champion-flaged players a good challenge to bounty hunt the bounty hunters I guess.

Goblin Squad Member

Andros Morino wrote:
Unless I misunderstood the various blog posts and we can really assasinate someone without them knowing who did it after their death.

Nope. Your victims will apparently always know who killed them.

From the blog:

Quote:
Assassins do have a signifier of their assassin flag, so their intent may be detected, but they also have a Stealth bonus so they can remain out of sight. Some folks have voiced concern that assassins will not be able to escape since they will be marked as an assassin, but that's what Stealth is for (and if you could hide the assassin flag after completing your kill, the guy you just killed could use chat, a vent server, etc., to tell everyone who killed him anyway).

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Which is exactly one of the reasons I proposed the use of disguises. So you can still place a bounty and still place a death curse but you don't know the actual player, only the alias/disguise they use when assassinating people.

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