Alas, another issue has arisen in my group in regards to the CL of scrolls.
It began when I was casting a Flaming Sphere from a scroll. I went to roll the 3d6 damage, and the fighter (who is normally a walking encyclopedia of rules in Pathfinder) said that since I was casting from a scroll it shouldn't do that much damage (alas, I didn't realize the Flaming Sphere's duration is the only CL-dependent part, and the damage is always 3d6, but that's just what happened) Either way, there was an issue brought up about what level scrolls are cast at.
Anyway, this discussion arose over what level I was casting the spell at from the scroll. The fighter was rather insistent that scrolls are always cast at the spell's lowest CL for my class, and don't take into account my current CL at all. That is, unless I elect to scribe a scroll at a higher CL and pay the extra gp for the level)
But I was under the impression that I always cast at my character's overall CL (since I'm not multi-classing) and that it would just cost me more to scribe the scrolls as per the Spell Lv * CL * 25gp rule. So, basically, if I'm a level 2 wizard, I would pay 50gp for a scroll of magic missile ( 1 * 2 * 25), but that the same scroll being scribed when I'm lv 5 would be 125gp, and that, when I pulled out the scroll, the number of missiles would be based on my current CL.
After looking over the scrolls page in the Core Rulebook, I can't really tell which way it goes. On one hand, it makes sense for a scroll made at lv 2 to be cast at lv 2, but paying more based on my CL and then casting them at their lowest CL doesn't make sense.
Then how does my character caster level get factored in? The rules are rather clear about it being based off the spell level and the Creator's Caster Level
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Spells cast from scrolls ignore your level, stats, feats and bonuses, etc.
Scrolls are normally made at minimum caster level to cast the spell. 3rd level wizard to cast a second level spell.*
That is also the caster level of the spell when cast from the scroll - whether you are first or 20th level.
Saving throw DC always uses the minimum necessary INT bonus to cast the spell on the scroll. To cast a second level spell you have to have an INT of 12, therefore saving throw DC is +1 (INT) + 2 (spell level) + 10 = 13.
All other effects such as range or duration are based of the scrolls caster level.
* You can get scrolls of spells of higher level than minimum but they cost a lot more.
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Then how does my character caster level get factored in? The rules are rather clear about it being based off the spell level and the Creator's Caster Level
When casting from a scroll, your caster level and relevant ability score is never factored in. Well, there's a feat and a wizard archetype that would, but normally no.
A scroll's effective ability score is always the minimum required to cast the spell, and the CL is always set at the time it is scribed (though usually the minimum necessary to cast).
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A scroll's effective ability score is always the minimum required to cast the spell, and the CL is always set at the time it is scribed (though usually the minimum necessary to cast).
Unless you are a 10th level scrollmaster.
Then am I reading the "The price of a scroll is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 25 gp" part wrong?
If my caster level doesn't matter, then why not say "level of the spell x the minimum level required to cast spell x 25gp" - it just seems like the rules are normally so thorough and clear (until you want to do weird stuff) that for something as common as a wizard scribing her own spells to be unclear is weird.
Mind you, I'm only talking about spells that I scribe myself. I keep track of scrolls we find or buy separately, and I know that those always get cast at the minium CL.
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It depends on who scribed the scroll.
In Pathfinder Society, it's always assumed to be the lowest level caster that could have cast that spell, with the lowest possible stat attribute.
If you scribe the scroll yourself, then it's based on your level and casting stat at the time you scribed it.
In a home game, it's up to your GM to decide what spellcaster was available to scribe the scroll for you when you purchased it.
Regardless of which of these is the source of your scroll, casting the scroll is always based on the caster level and casting stat that the scroll was created with, regardless of who later activates the scroll. I believe there are exceptions that let you override that, which is probably what Whale Cancer was referring to with the scrollmaster thing, but that doesn't come up often.
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Then am I reading the "The price of a scroll is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 25 gp" part wrong?
Instead of "the creator's caster level" it should probably say "the scroll's caster level". That's the level you use when casting the spell from the scroll. All scrolls on your character sheet should note the caster level of the scroll - if not noted, scrolls are assumed to be at minimum caster level.
Then am I reading the "The price of a scroll is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 25 gp" part wrong?Instead of "the creator's caster level" it should probably say "the scroll's caster level". That's the level you use when casting the spell from the scroll. All scrolls on your character sheet should note the caster level of the scroll - if not noted, scrolls are assumed to be at minimum caster level.
Casters and scrolls are totally different. I can't imagine they'd make a typo that far off from the intent and not have fixed it by now.
Also, I'm only talking about scrolls I scribe myself. So I know what caster level I was when I made them.
but you don't have to scribe them at your full caster level you can always choose to scribe your scroll of mage armor at caster level 1 to save money
Well yeah. I know that I can always scribe them at the minimum level. This entire issue was whether or not I had to, which, if anybody would have read what I initially said, was rather clear.
Sorry if I sound like a grumpy pants, but after two hours and six replies to the forum, I'd think that more than one person would have at least read the initial question and given a thorough answer.
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but you don't have to scribe them at your full caster level you can always choose to scribe your scroll of mage armor at caster level 1 to save moneyWell yeah. I know that I can always scribe them at the minimum level. This entire issue was whether or not I had to, which, if anybody would have read what I initially said, was rather clear.
Sorry if I sound like a grumpy pants, but after two hours and six replies to the forum, I'd think that more than one person would have at least read the initial question and given a thorough answer.
No. You do not have to scribe them at minimum CL. You can scribe them at a CL up to your maximum and down to the minimum need to cast the spell.
The very first response to this thread already said this, if not quite so explicitly.
The fighter was rather insistent that scrolls are always cast at the spell's lowest CL for my class, and don't take into account my current CL at all.
The fighter is partially right in this claim. Your current CL makes no difference when casting the scroll (unless you have specific abilities which create exceptions). What matter is the CL of the person who scribed the scroll.
Others have also already stated this.
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...there's a feat and a wizard archetype that would, but normally no.
What feat are you referring to?
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If the Flaming Sphere scroll was made by you, you could elect to give it a higher CL than the default. In this case, you would need to pay to scribe it at a higher level.
If you were level 10, and scribed the scroll, you could put it at CL 3 (assuming you're a wizard?), and it would cost 75 GP (spell level 2 * caster level 3 * 25 GP / 2 for scribing it). This would last for 3 rounds.
On the other hand, you could scribe a scroll at your full caster level or anywhere in between. As a level 10 scroll, it would cost 250 GP (spell level 2 * caster level 10 * 25 GP / 2 for scribing). This one would then last for 10 rounds, instead.
The assumed value for found scrolls is the minimum CL required to cast it. That's the default, but they can be made at different levels.
Hope that helps? Edit: I should say that I think this is accurate, at least.
Edit 2: As Howie pointed out, bad math.
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The CL of the person reading the scroll is always irrelevant. A scrolll's caster level is decided by the creator who made the scroll. The creator can opt to set the CL at anything from the minimum CL needed to cast the spell up to a maximum of the creator's CL. A scroll that is found or purchased follows the same limits. For simplicity, a found scroll is assumed to be at the minimum, but could be higher at the option of the GM.
Multiple responders have said this. I have not reviewed the CRB in composing this reply, but I do agree that the rules aren't particularly clear. In part, they are spread out in multiple places and the "always minimum" language is contradicted elsewhere. I don't have any "why" explanation other than it is an artifact of how the PF rules were derived from the 3.5 SRD; that process leaves a number of unclear or contradictory passages. This is one of them.
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If you were level 10, and scribed the scroll, you could put it at CL 3 (assuming you're a wizard?), and it would cost 37.5 GP (spell level 2 * caster level 3 * 25 GP / 2 for scribing it). This would last for 3 rounds.On the other hand, you could scribe a scroll at your full caster level or anywhere in between. As a level 10 scroll, it would cost 125 GP (spell level 2 * caster level 10 * 25 GP / 2 for scribing). This one would then last for 10 rounds.
Hope that helps? Edit: I should say that I think this is accurate, at least.
Your formulas are right, but your arithmetic is off.
2nd level flaming spree at CL3 has a value of 150gp and costs 75gp to scribe. At CL10, it has a value of 500gp and costs 250gp to scribe.
No. You do not have to scribe them at minimum CL. You can scribe them at a CL up to your maximum and down to the minimum need to cast the spell.
The very first response to this thread already said this, if not quite so explicitly.
Hence my preference for a thorough answer. Our Fighter/walking rulebook is rather adamant about his understanding of the rules regarding scrolls, and consequently saying "someone on a forum said so" isn't an adequate answer for me. I needed a ruling and reason to say that I am capable of scribing scrolls beyond their minimum level.
The fighter is partially right in this claim. Your current CL makes no difference when casting the scroll (unless you have specific abilities which create exceptions). What matter is the CL of the person who scribed the scroll.
Others have also already stated this.
And yes, others have now stated that more clearly (and with aforementioned reasonings).
Also, sorry to everybody else for me being a grumpy pants. This has just been an issue that's gone on for a few sessions and our GM is still very much learning the rules, so the fighter is usually the one to clarify things (and get me overruled), and thus, it's become something that's a bit taxing to deal with.
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Your formulas are right, but your arithmetic is off.
2nd level flaming spree at CL3 has a value of 150gp and costs 75gp to scribe. At CL10, it has a value of 500gp and costs 250gp to scribe.
Yep, just came back to change it after realizing I cut the price in half twice, not just once. My bad :P
Also:
I needed a ruling and reason to say that I am capable of scribing scrolls beyond their minimum level
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
Not exactly a direct statement saying they can be scribed past minimum level, but it's a good start for clarifying.
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Resurrecting this thread only because I've found the relevant quotes under staves and the Scrollmaster archetype that make this clearly the correct interpretation, but it makes you ask, "Why would anyone ever want a scroll?"
For spell levels 1-4, a wand at 15xSLxCL per charge is cheaper than the scroll's 25, does not require Read Magic, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
For spell levels 5+, a staff at 80xSLxCL per charge (retail price) is an expensive initial outlay, but is infinitely rechargeable and again doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
So it seems like scrolls are just a stopgap for low-level characters or characters who don't have a lot of time.
Are they intended to be "worse" than anything else?
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They are better than potions.
Single scrolls, or small quantity scrolls are better for spells that you don't need 50 castings of.
If you only need the spell on rare occasions, so it is not wqorth burning a spell slot for, but you really, really need it when you need it, it is worth a scroll or two of.
Some things can reduce or eliminate the need of a scroll, like wands, an arcane bond, or a staff, or even leaving a spell slot open for a prepared caster; there are still times when a scroll is not a bad choice.
A scroll can also give you access to a spell of a higher level than you can cast, and it is useful in conjunction with certain magic items for sp[ontaneous spellcasters, like a mnemonic vestment.
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I noticed everyone kept mentioning that the price is 25gp x cl x sl. But the core rule book says its 12.5 gp not 25gp. Just thought i would say something
This is the difference between creation cost and shop price.
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OK. I am a third level wizard, specialty school Conjuration. If I cast a Summon Monster spell, I get the bonus duration from my specialty school power. If I read a scroll of Summon Monster, I do not get the bonus, even if I scribed he scroll myself.
If I read a scroll of a spell that allows a saving throw, the save DC is computed based on the minimum INT needed to cast the spell, even if I scribed the scroll myself.
If I scribe a scroll of a cantrip or first-level spell, I can scribe it with a caster level of one, two or three. The higher the caster level, he more it costs to scribe the scroll. I do not have this option when I scribe a second-level scroll because a caster level of three is required.
Right?
Sorry about the thread necromancy, but this is my first wizard, and we're not playing PFS.
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If I scribe a scroll of a cantrip or first-level spell, I can scribe it with a caster level of one, two or three. The higher the caster level, he more it costs to scribe the scroll. I do not have this option when I scribe a second-level scroll because a caster level of three is required.
Right?
Sorry about the thread necromancy, but this is my first wizard, and we're not playing PFS.
Correct. You must use at least the minimum caster level for whatever scroll you or scribing.
Your second level scroll can be scribed at a minimum of 3(minimum to actually cast teh spell) or greater if you are higher then 3.
Ex: if you are a level 8 wizard, then you can scribe a scroll of a second level spell at caster level 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8, as you chose, and pay the corresponding value based on the craft formula.
First, I am sorry for raising this thread from the dead, but...
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If you scribe the scroll yourself, then it's based on your level and casting stat at the time you scribed it.
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How did you come to this conclusion? It would seem that most people interpret it as the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. As a druid with a ridiculous wisdom score I want this to be true but I'll have to justify it to the GM.
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First, I am sorry for raising this thread from the dead, but...
How did you come to this conclusion? It would seem that most people interpret it as the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. As a druid with a ridiculous wisdom score I want this to be true but I'll have to justify it to the GM....
If you scribe the scroll yourself, then it's based on your level and casting stat at the time you scribed it.
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Unfortunately, it's incorrect.
We start with the Magic Items section in the PRD:
Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers: Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
So for everything except staves, it's the minimum ability score.
Going back to the original post oh-so-long ago, you can scribe a scroll at any caster level you want up to your own; it's just assumed that if you find a scroll lying around in a loot hoard its caster level is the minimum required.
If I'm a 10th-level wizard, I can scribe a scroll of Fireball that does 5d6, 6d6, 7d6, ..., or anything up to 10d6. I just have to pay the cost of 12.5 x 3 x CL to scribe it.
But the save DC is always going to be 10 + 3 + 1 = 14.
it's incorrect, the effects of magic items always use minimum casting stat.