Eidolon vs. Control summoned Creature


Rules Questions


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Hello,

can a spellcaster with "control summoned creature" control the Eidolon of a Summoner?
By reading the rules this could be possible, but is this really intended to work with an Eidolon?

link to control summoned creature in prd

thx,
kalgani


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I would say, yes, it was intended to work with eidolons. This spell arrived after summoners and eidolons were added to the game.

The interesting question is what happens to a synthesist summoner who is hit with this.


But does it really makes sense?


I don't think the bio-suit of Synth counts as a creature, it lacks mental ability scores (creatures all have wis and cha scores), among other things. So it probably is not a valid target for the spell.


RAW, it seems that it would work; but that's a pretty big grey area for the RAI.

I'd actually interpret that it doesn't work against Eidolons, by the virtue of them being the (extremely big) exception to general "summoning" rules. However, if the Eidolon were to be called out via the Summon Eidolon spell (which then treats the Eidolon the same as a traditional summoned monster), then Control Summoned Creature would work fine. The inconsistent and nonspecific language of the written rules plagues my interpretation, though, so feel free to take me with a grain of salt on this one (but this is how I'd rule it in one of my games).

As for Synthesists, the Control spell would have no effect. While fused, the eidolon cannot be targeted separately from the summoner, and he is therefore not a valid target of the spell.

Silver Crusade

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Hmm, if it did work on a synth summoner though, I can already see the "Stop hitting yourself" jokes that would come out of that.


I would definitely allow it to work against an eidolon.
I would even be inclined to have it work against a synthesist.
The caster of the spell controls the synthesist until the synthesist breaks free or the spell ends. In his turn the synthesist would get to make the standard action to break free (this is the character struggling against the eidolon in which he is trapped) and if the synthesist doesn't break free, he takes his full turn under control of the caster (this is the eidolon being controlled by the caster of CSC).


Seems ok to me.. Devotion gives them a +4 to help with the will save and an opposed spellcraft check from the summoner as a standard action to undo it? Pretty robust defense mechanisms in place to make this action less devastating than it sounds. I don't know many summoners who aren't jacking their spellcraft through the roof. Properly geared an int based caster could get a decent edge against the summoner here. If the summoner thinks he's fighting a losing battle to keep the eidolon under control he can always dismiss it at will. Now that the eidolon is gone he's free to unleashe the hordes instead. Every gm's favorite.


If you use the summon eidolon spell it should work, but the class feature is not RAI for it to work against in my opinion.

As for the synthesis the two are one creature while merged and since the mental stats are from the summoner that is who is targeted. I guess you could say the summoner being merged gains the weaknesses of the eidolon though.


I'd even let it work against the synthesist's eidolon just from the simple standpoint that you're going up against the syntesist's will save which should be through the roof. I don't expect it to be successful but I'd welcome someone to try it. Certainly would be a funny balancing factor to the otherwise daunting nature of a synthesist, wouldn't it?


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In regards to the Synthesist... it gets weird.

Will it work on him? Yes, of course it will.

The tricky part is determining if it only gives control over the Eidolon suit, or over the summoner half as well.

I'm inclined to think, given there is no clear RAW answer here, that the RAI imply the entire synthesist is controlled. This line "He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist." implies that whatever is worse regarding types of creature is how things should be played out.

In this case, being a summoned creature is the worst thing he could be, thus, treat him like one. Now, that isn't precisely what that says... but it is as close to an answer I can locate anywhere.

But this spell most certainly works on your run of the mill Eidolon. An Eidolon is a summoned creature. It would be very, very hard to make a case for an eidolon to be not a summoned creature.

Liberty's Edge

This spell absolutely works against a summoner's eidolon:

Control Summoned Creature wrote:
Target one summoned creature
Summoner: Eidolon wrote:
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures...

All else being equal, the only difference between an eidolon summoned through the summoner's ritual and a summoned monster summoned from a summon monster spell is that 1) the eidolon doesn't go away at 0 hp, and 2) the eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.


It would work but on a synthesist, I would have the caster use move actions to direct a single limb for a single act or as a full-round concentrating actually orchestrate the movements to get a move and standard action worth out of the synthesist. Reason being the synthesist is basically just a mech suit. The summoner provides the mind behind the suit. I question if you wouldn't need a dominate person to move the synthesist at all given the line:

Quote:
The synthesist directs all of the eidolon’s actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.

Control summoned creature controls the eidolon and not the summoner and the summoner controls the eidolon.


HangarFlying wrote:

This spell absolutely works against a summoner's eidolon:

Control Summoned Creature wrote:
Target one summoned creature
Summoner: Eidolon wrote:
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures...
All else being equal, the only difference between an eidolon summoned through the summoner's ritual and a summoned monster summoned from a summon monster spell is that 1) the eidolon doesn't go away at 0 hp, and 2) the eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.

Agreed. Except in the ways specifically listed, an eidolon is just another summoned creature.


As for the synthesist, controlling the eidolon-suit would have no effect, as the fused pair act as one creature under the synthesist's direction. The eidolon-suit has no ability to take action itself, so the question of whether the spell works is moot.

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