Ok so I am looking to clarify some Magic Item Crafting rules for a game I am playing in. I know there is a book and a FAQ coming out in the near future that might better clarify these but I figured I would ask now since it on my mind.
1. Are there still body slot afinities like there were in 3.5? Example, does it cost more to enchant an effect on one Item Slot than it would another? I had just kind of assumed they were still around, making sure that crafters couldn't just have their way with items, but I can not find the rules on it anywhere.
2. This sentance here from the Magic Item Creation section.
Multiple Similar Abilities : For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
And this.
Multiple Different Abilities : Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
How does this rules apply when enchanting weapons? If at all. Example being I have a character who has Arcane Bond (Weapon) and want to add the spell like abilities of the weapons from the foes he defeats. He sells their weapon to generate golf and then spends his time enchanting his own with their ability. Do multiple spell like functions count as different, similar or just not apply at all.
3. Still on Weapon enchanting, though for arguments Armor would be just as curious, can you enchant effects into weapons that are normally on other prebuilt items from various books. Example being adding Resistance, or Dexterity to a weapon.
4. If an Ioun Stone costs 10,000g would it be reasonable, by the way the equasions work, that the same effect would cost 5,000g if it ocupied an Item Slot of some sort. Leading back into can you enchant it back into a weapon?
5. While I agree that some combinations of spells should never be enchanted (At will Cure Light Wounds for something like 2,000g) what is the line? It is fair to be able to shoot a Schorching Ray 3/Day but not many other effects, even when used along the equasions provided. Without making the entire formula off limits how can it be used by people who craft items? This one is vauge, sorry about that. Just something that bothers me both as a GM and Player.
The basis of these questions is characters like mine with Arcane Bond (Weapon) or just straight up have the Craft Arms and Armor feat. Is there any reason why they can't just load all of their enchants they want on the weapon to avoid paying the +50% cost for Multiple Different Abilities?
I realize there are some major risks to this tactic, after all you never know whenyou might encounter a Rust Monster, Sunder Bot, or similar weapon crunching enemies. The question is mostly if you can or not.
Thanks in advance for any help you have to offer, the Pathfinder Community has helped me out with countless rule clarifications in the past and I am sure this will be no exception.
I apolagize for my spelling errors, writing from a tablet device withoit spell check right now.
1. No
2. If it has a listed +X,000 gp or a +X enhancement equivalent, use that rather than the general formula
3. Probably
4. Probably
5. Which would you prefer - being given an imperfect formula to estimate homebrew magic item costs or being given no formula at all?
6. I don't see how adding non-sword-related magic to your sword gets you any sort of discount on the cost
Bearded Ben wrote: 1. No
2. If it has a listed +X,000 gp or a +X enhancement equivalent, use that rather than the general formula
3. Probably
4. Probably
5. Which would you prefer - being given an imperfect formula to estimate homebrew magic item costs or being given no formula at all?
6. I don't see how adding non-sword-related magic to your sword gets you any sort of discount on the cost
In reference to number 5, I probably shouldn't have bothered listing this one. I guess I was just hoping to hear some stories about how it can work and situations (spells) that need to avoided.
I also should have been more clear about the intent. It isn't that the crafter gets a discount when adding resistance to his weapon but the question of avoiding paying the penalty (+50%) when adding Multiple Different Abilities to a normally slotted item.
If the crafter with Craft Wonderous wanted to make a cloak with +1 Resistance AND +1 Deflection he would have to pay a 50% increase on the less expensive ability. Making the item cost 3,500g (2000g for the Deflection and 1000g (+50%)).
But the guy crafting a weapon doesn't have to pay the extra because it doesn't take an Item Slot from what I can read. I am hoping to determine the toughts of the community, determine if I have misread the rules, and come to a understanding that can be used in the many games me and my group runs.
So yeah... magical items are confusing and the formula is, at best a guesstimate, at worst utterly wrong. If you can find an item already doing something similar, you should use that price instead. Never try to reverse engineer or match up existing items to the purported formula because it doesn't always work and there's no good answer to why.
1. No
2. It is a weapon so you can only enchant it as if it was a weapon. Use the rules for enchanting weapons (as Ben said, use the +X,000 gold or +Y bonus equivalent cost)
3. Custom enchanting is up to the GM. On the one hand you can do anything, on the other it is only anything your GM will allow.
4. Ioun stones are a special class of magic item. You could argue that you could reverse engineer the price to allow for a slotted version but, again, the GM has a final say. Personally, I wouldn't let my players do it. But then again, I don't let them do much custom magic item work because it is so sticky and no one likes the "Because I, the GM, said so and stop arguing with me!" gambit.
5. Remember that with weapons you pay an increasingly higher cost to enchant it regardless of the enchantment's "base" cost.
A +1 weapon is 1000g to craft (all values here are half market value to account for crafting). Adding flaming to it, which is a +1 equivalent bonus power, is 3000g to craft. Adding holy (a +2 power) to your +1 flaming weapon is the difference between a +4 and a +2, or 12000g to craft.
In general, this also makes things confusing when you want to add non-weapon enchantments to a weapon because that would be craft wondrous item and that isn't craft arms and armor. In my mind, you can't make a +2 sword that shoots beams of light (sorry Link, no Master Sword for you). At the least, I'd slap on the "not the right slot" penalty for enchanting a weapon with wondrous item abilities.
MurphysParadox wrote:
3. Custom enchanting is up to the GM. On the one hand you can do anything, on the other it is only anything your GM will allow.
4. Ioun stones are a special class of magic item. You could argue that you could reverse engineer the price to allow for a slotted version but, again, the GM has a final say. Personally, I wouldn't let my players do it. But then again, I don't let them do much custom magic item work because it is so sticky and no one likes the "Because I, the GM, said so and stop arguing with me!" gambit.
In general, this also makes things confusing when you want to add non-weapon enchantments to a weapon because that would be craft wondrous item and that isn't craft arms and armor. In my mind, you can't make a +2 sword that shoots beams of light (sorry Link, no Master Sword for you). At the least, I'd slap on the "not the right slot" penalty for enchanting a weapon with wondrous item abilities.
Ok, but enchanting weapons with beams of light is described right out of the Core Rulebook.
Flame Tongue
Aura strong evocation; CL 12th
Slot none; Price 20,715 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This is a +1 flaming burst longsword . Once per day, the sword can blast forth a fiery ray at any target within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The ray deals 4d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor , scorching ray and fireball , flame blade , or flame strike ; Cost 10,515 gp
This weapon uses the formulas provided (more or less) to apply a once a day spell like ability to shoot the scorching ray. And no part of it seems to require Craft Wonderous, also I am somewhat confused. At the start you said there isn't body slots for specific bonus's anymore, so what would the tax be for applying a spell effect to a weapon?
This weapon is just one of the great many examples of pre written weapons that use very easy to determine formula to create. While yes in the end all crafting must be aproved by the GM, even crafting pre designed items from the core books, what is stopping someone from loading enchants (non enhancment, non weapon effects) onto their weapons using these rules?
Borleo wrote:
This weapon is just one of the great many examples of pre written weapons that use very easy to determine formula to create. While yes in the end all crafting must be aproved by the GM, even crafting pre designed items from the core books, what is stopping someone from loading enchants (non enhancment, non weapon effects) onto their weapons using these rules?
You answered your own question. Every GM that I have played with uses common sense to adjudicate these questions. If you are the GM talk to your player and explain that his item is not working the way you see things working in your world. Treat him with respect and find a way to help him tell his characters story without breaking your world. If you are a player and are upset about someone that appears to be power gaming and ruining your experience talk to your GM and maybe the other player. Again be respectful.
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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The GameMastery Guide expands on magic item creation and the cautions involved in applying the magic item rules.
I highly recommend it's purchase for this and many other things.
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Satchmo wrote:
You answered your own question. Every GM that I have played with uses common sense to adjudicate these questions. If you are the GM talk to your player and explain that his item is not working the way you see things working in your world. Treat him with respect and find a way to help him tell his characters story without breaking your world. If you are a player and are upset about someone that appears to be power gaming and ruining your experience talk to your GM and maybe the other player. Again be respectful.
Good advice to be sure, however in this paticuler case I am neither the player or the GM looking for a solution to a problem. Me and a friend are merely looking for a better understanding of the rules, he tends to be a very RAW kinda guy where as I tend to be a bit more liberal with my rulings.
Part of it is so both of us, as GMs, can better develope unique loot to give to the party. We want to make sure the items are not completly outisde of the RAW, and we want to have a understanding of the value of these items when we make them, helping us better tune the party to their Wealth by Level chart.
Part of it is also just the fun of brainstorming and debating the game, finding holes in the design, poking them, and seeing what others have thought of the same questions we have.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Borleo wrote:
Part of it is so both of us, as GMs, can better develope unique loot to give to the party. We want to make sure the items are not completly outisde of the RAW, and we want to have a understanding of the value of these items when we make them, helping us better tune the party to their Wealth by Level chart.
Part of it is also just the fun of brainstorming and debating the game, finding holes in the design, poking them, and seeing what others have thought of the same questions we have.
The real art of GMing Mastery is knowing that there comes a time when you set the charts and the RAW aside and develop the feel for how your game dynamics work. That's it not about what an item is, or how it's made, but what kind of splashes your stone makes when you toss it into the pond.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Have you read all the threads in the RPG Superstar section of the forum?
Round 1 is always a Wondrous Item, but an awful lot of the advice in those threads does cross over into all the other types of items for item creation.
Unfortunately, pricing is not a "by rule thou shall follow step by step" simple formula, it is part using the pricing table, part referring to the item tables and comparing costs against similarly powerful items.
May I suggest you take part in RPG Superstar next year and follow the threads this year, it will help an awful lot.
Ok, so me and my friend disucssed a few things and wanted to clarify some of the questions here.
1. Can you enchant a set of bracers with a deflection bonus? The cost being the same as the ring.
2. Can you enchant a weapon with a deflection bonus? Adding the cost of the deflection to that of the weapon?
These questions are mostly to help clarify what is and is not within the rules as being possible. There are countless examples of weapons with spell like abilities, so that seems fairly easy to determine, but when it comes to weapons (because they do not occupy a slot) the rules become much harder to understand the limits.
On one hand I do not see anything stating you can not (within game balance) enchant weapons with everything under the sun. But doing so does come with risk, sunder, rust, ooze, and simply not sleeping with your weapon in hand.
On the other hand it could make someone with a single craft feat (Arms and Armor) capable of enchanting their entire gear selection on a single item without any price increase.
It comes down to the question of do enchants have a feat requirement? Do you need Craft Rings to enchant Deflection, Wonderous to do Resistance, and so on?
My search fu is failing me today...
Looking at the table for creating a continuous use magic item based on a 1st level spell by a 1st level caster, should it be:
a) 1 (spell level) x 1 (caster level) x 2 (continuous) or is it:
b) 1 (spell level) x 1 (caster level) x 2 (continuous) x 4 (subtext 2 rounds/level duration)?
c) 1 (spell level) x 1 (caster level) x 4 (subtext 2 rounds/level duration)?
I have had people (with way too much time in the game) tell me it is a and others it is b and yet others, c...
Anyone have something that can be taken as canon rather than homebrew or I think?
I thought I saw a posting here several years back that it was c...
Help appreciated.
Based on the subtext of "If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half." it would be spell level x caster level x 2,000 x 4.
The math to discover the cost for your example would be 1x1x2,000 gold. So the cost would be 2,000 and then, as per the subtext, you multiply that cost by 4.
But that's not how their example works... Their example (Lantern of Revealing) is 30,000 gold. Spell required is Invisibility Purge, which is a 3rd level cleric spell, CL 5. So by their math, before taking duration multiplication into account, it would be 30,000 (3x5x2,000) and then, since Invisibility Purge is minute per level, it should be multiplied by 2... but it isn't.
So hey, it's totally understandable why anyone would assume A or B and I can easily see why someone would think C.
The poster child for Continuous magic items, and also why Continuous magic items are a bad idea, was the Bracers of Falcon's Aim.
4,000 gp for a Continuous (personal) 1st level spell.
1x1x2000 gp, multiplied by 2 for the 1min/level duration.
The subtext is in addition to the usual (CL x Spell Level x 2000) formula. So a Continuous first level spell (CL 1) with a duration of 2 rounds/level would have a market price of 8,000 gp.
Also, I believe the Lantern of Revealing is an Use-activated magic item, not a Continuous magic item.
*****
The important part about magic item creation is that the table are just guidelines. There are countless examples of magic items that doesn't follow these guidelines, and there are many magic items that do.
But if the spell you're trying to make Continuous has an effect that provides a bonus to AC, Attack, Damage, Saves, Ability Scores or Skills, then the absolute minimum price of that Continuous spell should be the price of that effect.
So far a split decision it would appear... any chance someone else (especially a developer) might weigh in?
It's spell level * catser level * 2,000 gp * subtext factor.
Keep in mind that existing items intentionally do not always follow these formulae. Magical effects that were deemed less powerful are generally priced lower (see lantern of revealing), while those that are more powerful are priced higher (see ring of invisibility). Formulae are the last reference one should use, and the result should be weighed carefully.
Just to be clear:
I fully agree with Blaphers. It is spell level * caster level * 2,000 gp * subtext factor
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