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When you purchase masterwork tools, what do you describe it looking like?
I imagine a pair of spectacles for Perception, or soft insoles for your boots when dealing with Stealth.
Just a few examples but sometimes I get a bit stuck when trying to come up with an object that makes sense when giving a +2 to that certain skill.
Typically an expensive indexed reference book of some kind for knowledge skills and spellcraft, protective gear for joints for acrobatics, shaded glasses or goggles for bluff, bracelets with tiny irregularly placed blades for escape artist, sound-muffling gloves for sleight of hand, etc.
UMD is a tough one to come up with unless you get some help from your GM, in my experience, since it's kinda vague what you're actually doing when you use UMD.
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Well I would think spectacles would have to be special made for that person, but for things like shoes I would think that there would be a special layer of supple leather along the bottom to pad your foot falls, for theives tools they would be smaller then normal possibly more hooks and stronger tension levers.
I think the big one that's difficult to come up with is Perform: Sing.
I've always liked the idea of like a Masterwork Tuning Fork or something that lets them find just the right pitch.
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Typically an expensive indexed reference book of some kind for knowledge skills and spellcraft, protective gear for joints for acrobatics, shaded glasses or goggles for bluff, bracelets with tiny irregularly placed blades for escape artist, sound-muffling gloves for sleight of hand, etc.
UMD is a tough one to come up with unless you get some help from your GM, in my experience, since it's kinda vague what you're actually doing when you use UMD.
I sometimes use a reference book for UMD that my character reads from time to time or even a diary that he's kept when watching other classes do what they do to try and imitate it.
I dunno, I think as long as it makes some sort of sense it should be allowed.
There's already tools for "non-standard" skills to be enhanced (nice clothing for Diplomacy, for example) so the precedent is there that it's not something that necessarily makes you better, it can also be something that puts you "on top of your game" (tuning fork, extremely well made instrument, more stealthy clothing, etc.) as it were, or changes people's perceptions of you for social skills,like a book of local customs for Diplomacy (or even Bluff), scary face paint/masks for Intimidate, and so on.
I think the big one that's difficult to come up with is Perform: Sing.
I've always liked the idea of like a Masterwork Tuning Fork or something that lets them find just the right pitch.
Since the tuning fork wasn't invented until the 1700s, any tuning fork would be pretty special. That's a great idea.
I would judge that UMD is more or less a pseudo-psionic method, kind of like ki powers and the like. As such, going with the crystal theme should be appropriate. So, a circlet with a gem of some sort?
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I always preferred tools to add a bonus to craft or possibly profession checks for the most part, exceptions to the rule being items already presented such as the alchemist’s lab, climber’s kit ect... that use clearly defined tools in their function.
Not that I'm against the idea of objects granting a +2 to skills that can't be augmented by "tools" in the strict sense but I prefer the suggestion of making them specific to a certain set of circumstances as is suggested in Ultimate equipment. For example a necklace of goblin fangs that grants a +2 UMD when emulating being a goblin, or a rare flower favored by a local faith that grants a +2 to diplomacy with the faithful.
cheeseweasel, what about mw tools for situational modifiers? Is 55 gp for forged documents that help with bluff checks in a specific city for a month too much to ask? What about a book that helps with knowledge arcana checks about dragons? Or a pole that helps with acrobatics checks to balance?
I think the big one that's difficult to come up with is Perform: Sing.
I've always liked the idea of like a Masterwork Tuning Fork or something that lets them find just the right pitch.
Sing is a simple one. Mr. Microphone
UMD could be a reference book, with "common" styles and other typical things used in creating magic items.
Others are more difficult, because what might help a Diplomacy check with Dwarves won't with Orcs... The same with other social skills. Although Psychic Paper just might work in most situations.
With the power of Imagination and a predisposition to allow what the player wants because that's the point of the item is.
Kindly realize that 'masterwork' does not mean 'easily transportable'.
I.e. masterwork tools for a Crafting profession, say, smithing, might include several dozen hammers, files, a forge, an anvil, tongs, molds, etc.
A masterwork set for stealth would probably be exactly what is used nowadays - camoflage clothing either unblack or patterned; lampblack facial paint or a hood; custom fit clothing (NOT ARMOR) with straps and tie downs and sheathes to keep things tight and minimize rubbing/knocking. I would probably have it not work while wearing any armor...time to play ninja, rogue-boy! (seriously, no real stealther would ever wear armor while trying to be a sneak).
A masterwork set does NOT have to work with armor, and doesn't even apply if the skill doesn't use tools (like say, Jumping). A tool to help jumping is called a Vaulting Pole or a teeter-totter with a helper for Aid Another, and it's 'masterwork' insofar as it takes some practice to use the bloody thing. A masterwork tool for swimming would likely be called a 'flotation vest', bouyancy belt, goggles and snorkel, and swim fins.
a masterwork tool for a knowledge check is also known as a 'library'. Masterwork does not need to be quick or convenient. The people who assume they can just carry around something for a +2 to a knowledge check on the spot just amuse me. "You delve into your private collection of carefully chosen tomes and lore for an hour of study. You get +2 on your Spellcraft check. Roll. Oh, you need it right now? Guess you're not using the tool."
Again, a masterwork tool does not have to be convenient. An Escape artist tool might require you to be almost nude and covered head to toe in fine, slippery oil. A +2 to Perception does not have to be a bonus IN COMBAT. It can be a microscope, a telescope, a chemical set to burn traces and enhance sets, shotgun microphones, etc.
===Aelryinth
cheeseweasel, what about mw tools for situational modifiers? Is 55 gp for forged documents that help with bluff checks in a specific city for a month too much to ask? What about a book that helps with knowledge arcana checks about dragons? Or a pole that helps with acrobatics checks to balance?
I would have such things possibly be smaller, but not cheaper.
==Aelryinth
The problem is that there simply skills in which that condition simply does not qualify. You can't get a masterwork throat, and you're not manipulating any other item when you're trying to UMD a magic item, but the best one is Diplomacy. There is simply no such thing as a masterwork tool for Diplomacy. There are certain things I'd say a situation would require if you did not want a negative, (Such as decent clothes for being at the Lord's court) but no gee biz wang mundane tool for making you more diplomatic (not that there isn't half a dozen ways to cheese that skill already))
Gotta love that perfume that doesn't exist, yep.
RAW text is something to be handled with moderation, otherwise we'd just do away with Judges, and replace them with steam powered Difference Engines.
Just because you can't think of something for each slot doesn't mean not everyone can. Like I said, it has to make sense, but there's no reason to say "No, you can't do that because I don't like it" every time somebody ants a Masterwork tool for some skill you don't want them to be able to boost.
I'm saying you should actually weigh how much sense the idea makes versus the sense the rest of this game makes and if they match you should allow it.
I'm also saying you shouldn't disallow things that are in the game just because you don't like them. That should be reserved for things that are truly ludicrous or unbalanced.
Yeah... this whole thing.
I'm willing to grant that I'm completely reactionary and living in the past, but there are a whole raft of skills that cannot benefit from "Masterwork Tools" in my games. There is no tool that will give you a bonus to Diplomacy. Ditto Bluff. Etc., etc.
This is an idea that got way out of hand, imo. Obviously, YMMV, and I've seen little but enthusiasm for what I consider cheese of the most ridiculous sort. So I suppose it's a thing I'll just have to ignore, as the game goes on.
[NB: None of this post is meant to heap opprobrium on anybody here; I just disagree with the idea that there's a +2 bonus tool for EVERY skill.]
The skills are all balanced assuming you can get a +2 for 50gp. It's part of the game.
If the descriptions bother you, then allow the players to buy training in a skill for 50gp that gives them a +2 or something. Don't deny them a bonus they're designed to be able to acquire.
If I dislike something there's usually a good reason for it. It's something that's either unbalanced, in bad taste, has insufficient logic behind it, or simply does not fit in the world I'm operating in.
And what I'm saying is that these tools that you don't like are not necessarily any of those things. Yes, you should keep an eye out for the "Magical Joke Book of +2 Diplomacy" or something silly, but I've given a few examples of fairly multi-purpose examples for Diplomacy boosting things and I'm sure others could do better.
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Yeah... this whole thing.
I'm willing to grant that I'm completely reactionary and living in the past, but there are a whole raft of skills that cannot benefit from "Masterwork Tools" in my games. There is no tool that will give you a bonus to Diplomacy. Ditto Bluff. Etc., etc.
This is an idea that got way out of hand, imo. Obviously, YMMV, and I've seen little but enthusiasm for what I consider cheese of the most ridiculous sort. So I suppose it's a thing I'll just have to ignore, as the game goes on.
[NB: None of this post is meant to heap opprobrium on anybody here; I just disagree with the idea that there's a +2 bonus tool for EVERY skill.]
The skills are all balanced assuming you can get a +2 for 50gp. It's part of the game.
If the descriptions bother you, then allow the players to buy training in a skill for 50gp that gives them a +2 or something. Don't deny them a bonus they're designed to be able to acquire.
I like that idea!
One time cost of 50gp per skill will grant a +2.
Ultimate Equipment, Masterwork Tool:
Several common items already count as masterwork tools for particular skills. These are the alchemist’s lab, climber’s kit, disguise kit, healer’s kit, masterwork musical instrument, and masterwork thieves’ tools. Therefore, there is no masterwork climber’s kit, masterwork healer’s kit, and so on—those items are already the best available for general checks with the relevant skill.
Some skills have no appropriate tool or masterwork tool— no nonmagical item exists that grants a bonus for all uses of that skill. For example, just because a certain perfume is favored by local nobles (granting a +2 circumstance bonus on Diplomacy checks to influence them) doesn’t mean that perfume has the same effect on a member of the thieves’ guild, a foreign berserker, or a medusa. Likewise, just because a fake beard woven by dwarves out of the beards of famous dwarves may grant a +2 circumstance bonus on Use Magic Device checks to emulate the dwarven race doesn’t mean the beard has any effect on using that skill to activate elven items or paladin items, or to decipher a written spell.
Individual GMs may want to allow masterwork tools for other skills at the listed cost. The circumstance bonus for such a tool should never be more than +2. The tool should either have a limited number of uses (such as the disguise and healer’s kits) or only apply to certain aspects of the skill (such as the balancing pole’s bonus on Acrobatics checks to traverse a narrow surface or the magnifying glass’s bonus on Appraise checks for detailed items).
I would say it is no great stretch to acquire something for 50 gp that would improve an expected skill check by +2, more or less whatever the skill involved.
I said "more or less". It means there are situations where that is not possible.
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Acrobatics : Specially designed weights, built for your body, that strap on in various locations (wrists, waist, neck, ankles) that provide a more correct 'center balance' to your body, for those who have bodies that aren't perfectly proportioned (arms longer than normal, legs longer than normal, etc). Or, MW staff for balance, etc.
Appraise : A small book with up to date notes on the current market values of various types of objects, and cheat sheats on how to appraise various types of materials.
Bluff : Makeup designed to hide tell-tale marks of lieing, colored lens glasses to hide the eyes to make it harder to tell where one is looking, special clothes that hide one's breath rate through bulkyness.
Climb : Attachments on the hands and shoes that give claws for gripping, a belt attachment that can be wrapped around trees for extra purchase, hammers pitons and ropes for rock climbing.
Craft : MW Tools, anvils, hammers, saws, chisels, scissors, awls, etc.
Diplomacy : Extra fancy clothes, body scents that induce calm and reason in those around you, pheremone extracts, makeup.
Disable Device : Masterwork lockpicks, spoons, stethescopes.
Disguise : High grade appliques, fake mustaches, wigs, fake breasts, fake belly's, makeup.
Escape Artist : Rigid plates next to your skin to help with keeping your chest expanded, metal bracelets around your wrists that have oil capsules inside that can be broken with the right twisting of the wrists, special wax for coating armor to make it extra slippery.
Fly : Small attachments at wrists, arms, and back that provide planing surfaces that make it easier to control one's movement (Ala Greatest American Hero).
Handle Animal : A small treat bag that contains preserved treats for various types of animals. A special pheremone extract that is pleasing to most animals.
Heal : A healing kit.
Intimidate : False teeth and makeup, warpaint, dismembered body parts strung around armor, armor appliques showing scary things.
Knowledge : Books, Cheat Sheets strapped inside of sheilds or on bracers.
Linguistics : Books, Cheat Sheets, MW Engraving tools, MW Writing Tools (for forgery).
Perception : Special glasses that polarize light, making it easier to notice motion, detail.
Perform : Masterwork Props, Clothes.
Profession : MW Tools, Jeweler's loupe, abbacus.
Ride : MW straps or reins, MW saddle, MW spurs or Whip.
Sense Motive : Special glasses that polarize light and make it easier to see beads of sweat, or pulsing veins.
Sleight of Hand : Silk Gloves that make it easier to slip in and out of people's pockets unseen, special weights that help balance the wrists for juggling.
Spellcraft : Special glasses that polarize light and make ti easier to see fine motions of a caster's hands, or read his lips at range to identify the spell. A book about magic items for using when Identifying.
Stealth : Special soft soled shoes, clothes designed to blend in to an area.
Survival : MW fishwire, fishing hooks, twine, flint and steel, a book on what is and is not edible in an area.
Swim : Cork inserts for clothes that make one more bouyant, web fingered gloves, fins, snorkles.
Use Magic Device : A small book with common activation phrases, a cheat sheet strapped to the inside of a shield or on a bracer with same.
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When you purchase masterwork tools, what do you describe it looking like?
I imagine a pair of spectacles for Perception, or soft insoles for your boots when dealing with Stealth.
Just a few examples but sometimes I get a bit stuck when trying to come up with an object that makes sense when giving a +2 to that certain skill.
I have used both of these as Masterwork 'Tools' for Diplomacy...
1. Masterwork Courtier's/Court Clothing
2. Notebook with extensive notes on court attendees...
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I've got a gnome Prankster bard who uses Perform (Comedy) with Versatile Performance for his intimidate checks to demoralize enemies. What would be an appropriate masterwork tool for this?
I know the juggler's kit in Ultimate Equipment gives a +1 on Perform (Comedy), but I'd assume that's only when giving a performance. So that will help with my day job checks in Pathfinder Society, but not with Versatile Performance to replace bluff and intimidate.
Any suggestions?
When you purchase masterwork tools, what do you describe it looking like?
I imagine a pair of spectacles for Perception, or soft insoles for your boots when dealing with Stealth.
Just a few examples but sometimes I get a bit stuck when trying to come up with an object that makes sense when giving a +2 to that certain skill.
Books for knowledges and spellcraft. Perfums/jewelry/clothing for diplomacy or bluff vs certain social classes. I've used as DM a veil for intimidate (a veil used by mercenaries in the campaign world, similar to the Aiel in Wheel of Time). I've used both dark cloaks and soft soils for stealth, grease for escape artist, etc
I have absolutely no problems with appropriate tools for appropriate situations. However you have yet to prove that there can be a single one widget does all in all situations for diplomacy.
In most cases, that's true for all widgets and skills. A soft soil gives you bonus to stealth when you try to stalk or move silently, but won't if you are stayin still. Spectacles can give you bonus to spot and search things, but won't work when you are trying to hear if there's somebody inside the closed room. This is explicitly said in the "masterwork tool" section of Ultimate equipment.
For diplomacy, a parfum can work and give you a bonus vs opposite sex. A military medal or commendation can give you a bonus vs military personnel. The letter of mark of a king can give you bonus towards that king's vassals, etc.
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When you purchase masterwork tools, what do you describe it looking like?
I imagine a pair of spectacles for Perception, or soft insoles for your boots when dealing with Stealth.
Just a few examples but sometimes I get a bit stuck when trying to come up with an object that makes sense when giving a +2 to that certain skill.
I have used both of these as Masterwork 'Tools' for Diplomacy...
1. Masterwork Courtier's/Court Clothing
2. Notebook with extensive notes on court attendees...1. The first is the minimum tool for Diplomacy at court and that's actually subsumed by Courtier's gear at 200 gold, so no you can't cheese it at 50.
2. The second would be more appropriate for a Knowledge Nobility skill roll rather than diplomacy.
Certainly not at 50, no. In this case, the outfits were in the 500+ range. And it's a -2 without it, this was above and beyond the normal cost of courtier's outfit, hence my calling it 'Masterwork', so therefore +2. It's the equivalent of No tools/tools/masterwork tools.
Edit: And yes, it's still somewhat situational. A sharp outfit will help you in court... not necessarily in talking your way out of having your face punched in at the local dive.
As for the second, I could see allowing either. I allowed diplomacy rather than forcing two rolls so that K:Nobility could comp the +2 to Diplomacy.