I've been contemplating bumping the firearm level up to "Commonplace" so one of my players could pick a Gunslinger and have advanced firearms if he crafts them. Of course, it would be wildly unfair if the player were the only one with access to guns, since they are commonplace after all, so I'm thinking of tweaking some encounters to have things at least on the level of musketeers with bayonets that they're fighting.
We're doing Carrion Crown, and I'm fairly set on this course of action if he goes through with playing a Gunslinger (and think it would be pretty fun for all involved actually), I'm just wondering when they should start appearing?
Basically the question is twofold:
How deadly are early firearms in the hands of "One and done" NPCs?
And how deadly are advanced firearms in the hands of the same?
What would be a good level to start introducing "Skeleton Firing Lines" and such? They're level 3 now, and I anticipate the Revolver being a thing around level 5 or 6, maybe 7 depending on how much of his money is pumped into it.
I don't want to eviscerate them, but I do think it would be a solid way to up the challenge slightly (it's a Gestalt campaign) without tweaking the encounters too hard, and it sounds fun.
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It really depends on your party. If you've got 5 Paladins and a Gunslinger in the party, they'll probably get mowed down in a hail of lead. If you've got party-members with scaling bonuses to Touch AC like monks, you'll likely see little difference in the difficulty of the encounter.
The upside to guns in the hands of NPC's is that they won't have all of the deeds and class abilities enhancing their damage that you might otherwise see in a PC gunslinger.
They are, however, still using larger die weapons with x4 criticals targeting touch AC, so the non-Gunslinger party members might be a bit perturbed at suddenly having their full plate and shields made useless in the face of rifle-wielding skeletons.
It's not going to be a hugely commonplace thing. I was thinking just wherever there was a ranged heavy encounter (...not that I've seen one so far) or a place that it would make sense for one, I would replace at least half the bows/crossbows with guns (likely muskets or blunderbusses).
And the party consists of 5 Gestalt characters: a Cleric/Alchemist (my GMPC healbot/backup skill monkey so they don't get screwed by bad Knowledge checks/artillery), a Bard/Summoner (skill monkey + beatstick), a Fighter/Druid (TWF with Raptor companion, beatstick/Support), an Armored Hulk Barbarian/Fighter (Tank), and a Fighter/Barbarian (Natural attack based with an Earthbreaker backup. Absolutely massive damage output, especially for level 3).
Gunslingers are balance as far as I am concerned when they only have access to early firearms because it's a hassle to get more than two attacks a round without multiple weapon on hand, and quick draw. Advanced firearms are only a problem because of their incredibly fast reload speed which allows multiple attack in a round with ease (all of which hit touch). That said, an advanced firearm in the hands of class not based around guns is not going to be that bad, as they're only doing base damages, or getting that many attacks a round. It's more of a nuisance than anything.
Keep the number of advanced firearms low, and the number of straight gunslinger enemies lower, and you shouldn't have a problem.
Eh, unless they have a way to add static damage a crit from even a d12 isn't that scary. A d12 is on average 6.5 damage, x4 that is 26 damage. While likely to drop a 3rd level PC, its not actually all that likely to kill them. A 5% chance with a normal crit range then they have to confirm. Also only the first range increment for non advanced firearms is the only one you get to use touch ac for. Even the musket that means 40 feet and closer, which is in charge range even for slowpokes.
So long as you don't put a guy on a ridge with an advanced long gun you are unlikely to devastate the party with the mechanical advantage a gun represents. Even then as long as the RoF isn't too high its still not a problem IMHO.
Now if you make NPCs that can fully exploit the mechanics of firearms... Its still just damage, and honestly its not that hard to negate the mechanics of firearms with a fog cloud (20 percent miss chance at worst, total concealment at best) or simply using cover intelligently (dropping prone is what? A free action? Good cover and prone is +8 AC vs ranged).
Guns aren't that deadly at all, even advanced ones. guns may target touch AC within enemy charge range, but they have huge misfire chances, and considering how expensive guns are, a magical advanced firearm is too expensive for laughable short range damage. it's like attacking with a 1handed reach weapon that does not threaten, can't be used for AoOs, provokes AoOs, can't be used to flank with and has a high chance of screwing over the wielder.
even if you let a gunslinger start with a pair of free advanced revolvers, they would still be underpowered, and likely still would be with fully automatic laser assault rifles. instead of being built to excel with guns, they are built to suck less with this inferior weapon.
the reasons why,
- to utilize the full benefit of their weapon, they have to be within enemy charge range
- the risk of misfire greatly outweighs the chance of a critical hit
- getting a good sources static damage requires a highly specific class feature of a highly specific class gained through 5 levels of toil or a boatload of money
- did i say enemy charge range? i meant monster reach weapon range.
- you have to abuse free actions like there is no tomorrow to be effective.
- guns and their ammunition are too overpriced, even if you craft them with the gunsmithing feat for 5% of the price.
- archers still outshine you with their adaptable composite bows, which are better and cheaper than your guns, plus they can poison their arrows, apply blanches, and so on.
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Gonna go ahead and dispute you Umbriere, especially on the advanced firearms.
1.) They attack Touch AC out to 5 range increments (100 feet)
2.) They only misfire on a 1, and are barely inconvenienced by it (what's a -2 to hit for something that attacks Touch AC?).
3.) Good point.
4.) I don't know of any monster with 100 ft reach, if you can point me to one I'd be happy to see it.
5.) Not sure how this is a downside, free actions are free.
6.) The most expensive gun is 7k gold, which is practically pocket change after a certain level. Ammunition ranges from 1 gp a pop to free (depending on if you have a Wizard).
7.) Better? Debatable. Cheaper? Certainly. Guns have special bullets that let you apply poisons and such though.
I'm not sure what your point here was, especially for a Gunslinger. I know bowmen who would KILL to apply Dex to damage and attack Touch AC without losing out on anything except a bit of cash.
@Everyone Else: Thanks.
Gonna go ahead and dispute you Umbriere, especially on the advanced firearms.
1.) They attack Touch AC out to 5 range increments (100 feet)
2.) They only misfire on a 1, and are barely inconvenienced by it (what's a -2 to hit for something that attacks Touch AC?).
3.) Good point.
4.) I don't know of any monster with 100 ft reach, if you can point me to one I'd be happy to see it.
5.) Not sure how this is a downside, free actions are free.
6.) The most expensive gun is 7k gold, which is practically pocket change after a certain level. Ammunition ranges from 1 gp a pop to free (depending on if you have a Wizard).
7.) Better? Debatable. Cheaper? Certainly. Guns have special bullets that let you apply poisons and such though.I'm not sure what your point here was, especially for a Gunslinger. I know bowmen who would KILL to apply Dex to damage and attack Touch AC without losing out on anything except a bit of cash.
@Everyone Else: Thanks.
1. 100 feet at a -8 to attack rolls. that is nearly giving your foe a the benefit of a free suit of full plate. nearly negating the advantage of ignoring armor
2. a misfire doesn't require a confirmation roll, unlike a critical hit, and -2 stacks with the -8 you are taking for an 100 foot range touch attack.4. i don't know any with an 100 foot reach, but many large and huge creatures may take a polearm for 20-30 foot reach, whilst charging you with their superior mobility. bows may not threaten, but they have a range increment of 110 feet without penalties
5. DMs, especially the ones i know, are very likely to watch free action abuse like a hawk, even counting the free actions you take in a round.
6. 7K gold is nearly the price of a +2 weapon. may not seem like much, but it will add up, and while it is 1.1 gold pieces to craft a single bullet and dose of black powder, it costs 6 to craft a paper catrige and 10 to craft a metal one. getting all your attacks costs you anywhere from 6 to 90 gold pieces per round on ammunition.
7. an archer is not only cheaper, but they have a far more forgiving range allowing them to deal more damage, and the strength dependency isn't an issue, it rewards switch hitters, whom most archers can easily become.
1.) Negating the advantage, yes, but what it does is merely put you on par with to-hit bonuses for archers when you factor out armor. A -10 to hit is still pretty damn nice when you only need to hit like a 12 or 14 at most usually.
2.) Best thing about Gunslinger is how you can just go "Lol nope gun's not broken" as either a move action (by spending Grit) or a Standard action (without), meaning the downside is only applicable for one combat at most.
4.) And they still have to attack regular AC. It balances out.
5.) I'm not sure where the "abuse" comes in either. At most, you're using a free action to reload, unless I'm missing something.
6.) And most people enchant their weapons to get a higher to-hit bonus, which is something that's not really a priority for a Gunslinger. Also, it's almost half that for a revolver.
7.) Why can't a Gunslinger be a switch hitter just as easily? Really all they need is at least a 12-14 in Wis and a decent Dex, they should have plenty of points to spare for Str, and as a full BaB class they should be packing a pretty good wallop in melee as well.
I think a Gunslinger (with Advanced firearms anyway) is a lot better than most non-dedicated archers (which is pretty much everyone but an Archery Combat Ranger).
But I'm derailing my own thread at this point, we could continue this discussion in some "Are Gunslingers any good?" thread if you wish. This thread was mostly about asking for a good level to start introducing firearms to NPCs and the general consensus seems to be "Early firearms shouldn't pose a huge problem to 3rd-4th level characters".
5. the free action abuse comes from dual wielding pistoleros who use weapon cords to get around lacking a third arm or a prehensile tail.
Weapon cords aren't free actions, they're Swift actions to retrieve. You only get one of those anyway.
I assume what you're referring to as "Drop the gun, reload one, drop the other, then pick the second up and reload it"?
But then you'd only get to fire one of them that round.
Or am I missing something? I WOULD like to know if there's anything super ridiculous to watch out for. I'm fairly liberal on interpretations of the rules but things that just don't make sense I'd like to know about.
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Id suggest doing a little play test alone or with players, roll an encounter involving advanced firearms and try and power game the hell out options to effect it. See how you feel about the effect in game at its worst and how much it might change otherwise difficult encounters. Or if guns are just as wide spread among the enemy how quickly being riddled with bullets might suck the fun out the game for PCs.
Of course how much of a game changer it is depends on ones PCs and if they are hardcore power gamers as some of mine tend to lean towards. Like any class gunslinger can and will be abused by min/max players.
However as for my own two cents the Gunslinger is more special the rarer guns are, and better balanced as well. Ive ran games and used advanced firearms as rewards, alien weapons, the remains of some lost culture, experimental weapons that sort of thing. I personally find that the best method and gives you some control over placement of what can be a serious game changer.
^That sounds pretty great Thalandar.
My PCs are not too terribly focused on powergaming more than making a fun concept, though I do have one that pushes the borderline just a bit (but I did tell him to push the limits to see how bad a Gestalt campaign would be skewed off-kilter).
I just think this would be a great way to shake things up a bit every now and then, and not even be necessarily something the PCs have to FIGHT on a regular basis, but just be something that's a part of the world in more heavily guarded areas or wealthier population centers(city watch carrying muskets or something).
Of course, being Commonplace, who knows when guns could pop up next? I'll probably introduce them in a safe environment first, have the enemy be something really easy to kill just to introduce them to the fact that guns are a thing for people other than the player.
PC wizard delivers point blank coup de grace to enemy wizard effectively blowing his head off. Entire enemy ship surrenders after brutal display. It was a great roleplaying and story moment.
Was that enemy wizard helpless? Sleeping?
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I am running Skull and Shakles with commonplace firearms (no advanced firearms). What I am seeing is they are great one shot weapons, touch ac is handy. Problems, the damage just isn't stacking up like it does for other weapons, so the players shot once, drop the weapon and engage with melee weapons.
What changes is NPC and player tactics. Everyone is interested in cover now, closing the distance quickly while avoiding exposure. This is easy in ship to ship combat.
Firearms have become more of an intimidation factor, especailly after the "incident". Invisible wizard stealthful approaches enemy wizard. Enemy wizard, and in fact all other npcs fail preception. PC wizard delivers point blank coup de grace to enemy wizard effectively blowing his head off. Entire enemy ship surrenders after brutal display. It was a great roleplaying and story moment.
That's how the older firearms were used in most cases anyway. You fired it off, hope you got lucky and then engaged in melee.
Firearms are not very good by default. Standard action reload times make them not good for the average NPC except as a one-shot weapon. In fact, without five levels of gunslinger and the Rapid Reload feat, you're probably better off with a bow. If it's flavor you're after, I recommend just using them as one-shot weapons for most NPCs, and mixing in a few gunslingers like any other class. Advanced firearms increase the danger to the PCs by introducing sniper situations, so don't include them in an encounter unless that is what the encounter is about.
P.S. Don't use double-barreled pistols. Ever.
it's interesting- these were very much what my houserules for crossbows looked like waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day.
@Dazaras, that's what I was figuring I was gonna do. Have them take a shot as a line (figured they'd all ready actions to fire as the PCs walked into view if they had warning) and then either drop the weapon and attack with claws, draw a sword, or whatever, or screw a bayonet into the gun to meet the charge.