Design Manager
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I keep trying to figure out how you reduce your reload to a free action for a Revolver and I just can't.
The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm).A Revolver is a one-handed firearm. Move action.
Did he tell you he could take it twice to reduce it to a free?
Because:
Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow or a new type of firearm.Now spending Grit he can, but spending Grit regularly isn't likely to be an option.
Advanced Firearms reload as a move action normally.
Yeah I deleted that when I saw it.
Also saw that it was one of those "1 Grit in pool" things.
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Design Manager
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I have never heard anyone complain about Gunslingers not dealing enough damage. Generally, the opposite is true, especially when you've allowed them the use of an Advanced Firearm.
Just be glad he's not using a pair of Double-Barrel Pistols and a Glove of Storing.
**EDIT**
Although I will acknowledge that it is possible to build a gunslinger who is fairly sub-par on damage. A non-archetyped gunslinger who doesn't use alchemical cartridges or advanced firearms will probably struggle to keep up in the damage department.
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I keep reading that people think gunslingers deal low damage.
I am currently running a game and if anything I find myself flustered at the amount of damage the gunslinger does.
Currently lvl 7, he is playing a hobgoblin and got 18 Dex plus bonus of +2 for a 20 dex.
He is using a revolver that I made him craft himself and he spent his gold to have it enchanted to a simple +1.
The party has a alchemist which makes all the alchemical junk.
He took the feats for rapid shot, point blank shot, Rapid reload and deadly Aim.
So right now he deals 1d8 +11 damage and hits on a touch attack.
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Let me brake it down even further
his to hit is
+7 BAB
+5 Dex
+1 Magic
-2 Deadly Aim
+1 Point Blank shot (if within 30')
-2 Rapid Shotso he has +10 attack and targets touch attack +9 costs a grit and targets touch when further then 30' (+5 for the 3rd attack)
Damage wise
1D8 Base
+5 Dex
+1 Magic
+4 Deadly Aim
+1 Point Blank within 30'and gets to shoot 3 times because of rapid shot. With Rapid reload he reloads as a free action so reloading don't slow him down.
Basically because he hits touch Ac he never misses (hasn't rolled a 1 yet though I will laugh when he finally does)
He deals 3D8 + 33 damage (-3 if further then 30' from target)(max of 57)
The only time he does not out damage the barbarian is against the few rare creatures with good touch AC.
The barbarian currently deals 1D12 +15 (while enraged) but often does not land both of his attacks.
so if both hits he deals 2d12 +30 while enraged (max of 54)
______________________________________________________What I can't figure out is how people think that the gunslinger does not keep up with damage. I mean the barbarian does insane damage and yet the gunslinger easily manages to consistently out damage him and at a 20' range with only a few less hp and close to the same AC
The problem here is that you let your player use a revolver. This means six shots before needing to reload, which is only a move action. The thing that normally keeps Gunslingers at bay is their action economy, which essentially is standard action to shoot, move action to reload, on and on and on.
Most GMs, and Pathfinder Society, don't allow advanced firearms, for this reason.
Yep, the revolver is a big part of this. If it were a normal pistol, his damage would be lower due to the hard gate of the action economy necessary.
As soon as you mentioned Revolvers, you're not in the same ballpark as the original gunslinger-damage arguments. Advanced Firearms will easily put you into the top tiers of damage.
I believe the damage discussions have been more about simple firearms, ala single-shot pistols and muskets. More often than not, when the gunslinger is allowed into a campaign where most of the other characters/npcs aren't using firearms, it's at the simple firearms level, not the advanced one.
And yeah, Rapid Reload takes the Reload action level one step down. Alchemical Cartridges take it down one further, but I'm bit hazy in my memory on how Advanced reloads and alchemical cartridges mix, or if they do at all.
As soon as you mentioned Revolvers, you're not in the same ballpark as the original gunslinger-damage arguments. Advanced Firearms will easily put you into the top tiers of damage.I believe the damage discussions have been more about simple firearms, ala single-shot pistols and muskets. More often than not, when the gunslinger is allowed into a campaign where most of the other characters/npcs aren't using firearms, it's at the simple firearms level, not the advanced one.
And yeah, Rapid Reload takes the Reload action level one step down. Alchemical Cartridges take it down one further, but I'm bit hazy in my memory on how Advanced reloads and alchemical cartridges mix, or if they do at all.
Advanced don't have alchemical cartridges, they all use metal cartridges. It's a move action to completely reload a revolver, so with the Rapid Reload feat it would be reduced to a free action.
An Advanced Firearms revolver is your problem here.
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Design Manager
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and
Prerequisite: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen).
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy crossbow). Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack of opportunity.
If you have selected this feat for hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.
Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, or a full-round action to reload a heavy crossbow.
Also, for reference on how it should interact:
Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)
I think that other description is an unofficial update from pfsrd.
The other description is from Ultimate Combat, where they updated the feat.
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Design Manager
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The other description is from Ultimate Combat, where they updated the feat.
Ah, so it is. That feat also contains this text though: Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, a standard action to reload a one-handed firearm, or a full-round action to load a heavy crossbow or a two-handed firearm.
One-handed Advanced Firearms take a move action, not a standard action to reload, so it should affect it accordingly. One would think.
This is more of the Developers expecting only the earlier Non-Advanced Firearms being available...
I am wondering why they didn't word it differently and just put a list of the steps it follows.
Didn't they also just take it from the Inner Sea World Guide?
That might also explain why it doesn't mention Advanced Firearms.
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actually him using the revolver is letting you get off easy.
If he had two douible barrel pistols at level 7 he would be getting off 8- 10 shots a round.
two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting
firing both barrels at once = -r to hit
two weapon fighting =-2 to hit
so he would be -6 more to hit--but still attacking touch ac which actually gets lower and lower as you go up--look at dragons
he can eventually take a gunslinger trait that allows him to shoot up to 40 feet away without using a grit point
the way you get 10 shots is
your attack is +7/+2
you get two more attacks for each of those for two wespon
you get one more attack for rapid shot
that is five attacks---and each one is two barrels
rapid reload plus alchemical cartridges makes reloading a free action.
fire all you attacks from main hand (which includes the rapid shot) your other pistol is hanging from a weapon cord so you can reload. that would be 6 attacks
then as a free action drop the main hand pistol onto its weapon cord and as a swift acttion recover your off hand pistol and ifre all of its double basrrel attacks for four more attacks.
you think 3 shots is nasty---he could be doing 10 with an early weapon. and if he is dwarf by level 8 he would never misfire if he had reliable pistols
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actually him using the revolver is letting you get off easy.
If he had two douible barrel pistols at level 7 he would be getting off 8- 10 shots a round.
Agreed. People were questioning right after Ultimate Combat's release why the double pistol is more powerful than the revolver.
But dual wielding double pistols before 13th level is pretty dangerous. If you doubleshot and your first shot misfires, the second still goes off with a 25% misfire chance and this time the pistol explodes (this has occured to me twice across 8 levels while only using double shot for standard actions and full-attack as a last resort. My pistolero doesn't dual wield). Even though using wrist cords to dual wield is legal in PFS, I have yet to see a dual wielding gunslinger (probably because players realize making 8 attack rolls at 7th level is obnoxious).
As for damage, a pistolero or musketeer can spew outrageous damage at close range.
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and I have seen quite a few dual double barrel pistol gunslingers--and yeah they are obnoxious. If you do not go before them on intiative--you will probably not get a chance to hit the monster.
once again--the GM has to make sure that the ammo is being kept track of. That will often cause a gunslinger to hesitate if every round costs him 60 gp
Revolver changes nothing except his misfire rate with a pistol, really. You can get a free action reload with the feat+alchemical cartridges(which you get with an alchemist. If Gunslingers couldn't get free action reloads they'd suck horribly.
And you may hate his damage now, but just wait til he gets the TWF feats.
I don't get why Gunslingers don't find a Way to use Dead Shot cheaper either through the Signature Deed Feat or something.
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they can---they can basically use dead shot or up close and deadly basically for free---but you have to be level 11 to use up close and deadly
level 11 gunslinger dwarf----12 attacks (not hasted and no rapid shot)
using signature deed on up close and deadly
within 20 feet
+1 point blank
-3 deadly aim
-4 double barrel
-2 two weapon fighting
+7 dex--if not more
+1 magic from pistol
+1 magic from bracers of falcon
bab main attacks are +11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1
each attack that hits is two shots
so +12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2 vs touch ac for 12 shots total--since each is double barrel
damage each
+1 pb
+1 for pistol
+7 for dex
+1 pistolero bonus damage
+6 deadly aim
for a total of 1d8 +16 for each shot that hits
and by using up close and deadly on each of those shots---the pistolero would do an additonal 3d6 for each shot that hit and still do half that for each that missed.
so if just half the shots hit (easy to do at +6 average vs touch ac ---then
1d8+16 times 6 equals an average of 27+96 or 123 damage---then we add on up close and deadly
average of 3d6 X6 for shots that hit is 63
half that for the ones that miss is 31 for another 94 points of damage
so 123 + 94 equals 217 points of damage---IF half of them miss touch ac--more likely closer to 2/3 will hit
and that is not figuring in any crits
Um what?
I was thinking Dead Shot to save on Ammo cost.
& Does Dead Shot work with TWF?
Revolver changes nothing except his misfire rate with a pistol, really. You can get a free action reload with the feat+alchemical cartridges(which you get with an alchemist. If Gunslingers couldn't get free action reloads they'd suck horribly.
And you may hate his damage now, but just wait til he gets the TWF feats.
Revolvers (or any Advanced Firearms) do not utilise Alchemical Cartidges, they use Metal Cartridges only. They allready have a reduced reload speed to compensate, and some of us think that Rapid Reload would allow a free action reload, while others disagree.
Doesn't the Favoured Class option only work on the Base Misfire NOT the Modified Misfire?
R.A.W. I think it is the first formula... But I think the Last one is the one I will use for home games.
Metal Cartridges don't state they reduce the time. They are just basic metal cartridges like what we use in Modern Times.
Do you even know what Alchemical Cartridges represent?
Metal Cartridges don't reduce the time needed to Reload.
Otherwise they would have just made Advanced Firearms load as Free Actions. Because you can't fire them without a Metal Cartridge. You also can't use them with a Musket or such.
Also: I have read the Firearm Rules enough to where I could have quoted that phrase. I also have worked in a Gunsmithing Shop.
the ONLY control on a gunslinger is to track his ammo use religiously. It cost 6 gp a chotfor alchemical and you need to make sure he accounts for every single alchemical cartridge he uses
Yupp.
And yes, three shots with 1d8+11 doesn't sound too bad to me... after calculating what our pistolero will do at that level.
That's correct. Advanced Firearms do target touch AC for five increments. Dead Eye is far less helpful with Advanced Firearms. (unless you love the long shots)
Yes, that effectively gives them touch AC out to 100 feet, but they take a cumulative -10 penalty to-hit for range (basically at that range negating the advantage attacking touch AC gives and putting them roughly on par with bows).
Adding Extra Feats isn't necessary. How does your Double Barrel change work with Vital Strike?
Metal Cartridges & Alchemical Cartridges couldn't stack regardless.
Metal Cartridges are Modern Rounds.
Alchemical Cartridges are Civil War era Packets (Which Ironically made the Rifled Muskets safer to fire).
There don't need to be any changes to the system. Though your Double Barrel Solution might work if it allows the 2d8 to advance under the Vital Strike Multiplier not [1d8*(VS Multiplier)]+1d8.
& Reloading a Firearm takes 2 Hands. Using that Rapid Reload is foolish. If anything I would create an items like Quickload Strips that reduce the loading to a Free Action.
The thing is Rapid Shot makes it easy for them to use a Bow as a Back-Up Weapon without losing their advantage.
And Reloading a Revolver will get so expensive it literally drains their GP like 10 Vampires on a worm.
I have experience with Advanced Firearms. I have even allowed Rapid Reload to decrease the Reloading time. They still can only get one round of Full-Firing. After that they must Juggle and use Cheese or fall down to a single weapon til they can get the free time to reload.
It isn't that powerful. Especially if they cost their full price. I mean it is what 12GP per shot? Maybe 6GP if you allow them to craft the Metal Cartridges.