Will Casters be required for magic item crafting?

[Ravenlute]

Traditionally, with few exceptions, a character needs to have spell casting ability to help create a magic item. Will this be the case in PFO as well?

Will the crafter need to be a caster or can they have someone else cast needed spells? Will some NPC's in the workshop be able to stand in?

[leperkhaun]

Im two ways about this. On one hand I would love to see anyone be able to craft anything, magical or otherwise.

On the other hand, i think it would be better for crafting to have the same requirements as pathfinder.

I would like to lean towards crafting like in the TT.

[Uthreth Baelcoressitas]

I hope not. That will mean that wizards will be even more popular than they already are. I imagine you could justify not being able to cast spells by saying that the act of infusing magic into an item is different than the act of manifesting a spell, and that someone who specializes in crafting learns this different form of "magic."

I hope there is a large variety of objects that crafters can create. I hate being cookie cutter, so the more variety the better.

[Kyndriha]

I hate cookie cutter too every other game i've played lets everyone craft everythyihng... I would love to see them stick true to their tabletop design it would set them apart from the other games out there.

[MicMan]

As far as I have understood the design goals it might be possible that crafting is undertaken by your own personal NPC (bot/slave/valued employee). This would mean that any and all classes can craft anything that they have the skill for (skill: "Handle Magic Wand crafting bot").

Could be that this bot thing only applies to gathering and selling though.

[Southraven]

There is an implication, although I don't think it's ever been said outright, that crafting skills will form their own 'paths'. So by selecting crafting abilities you are effectively multi-classing and taking the penalties of time associated with that.

I say this based on the wording of the Destiny's Twin reward in the Kickstarter

"As a special feature of Adventurer accounts, you'll be able to have two characters training skills at the same time! While one character is learning how to master the martial arts and gain renown as a warrior, your other character can be learning the intricacies of the crafting system and earning a name as an industrial powerhouse"

While I guess you could do this at once, the implication is that the 'crafting alt' would normally be a completely separate character

[Keign]

For the purposes of this game, and the open skill-base that it has, I would suggest that one would require:

1) A sufficient crafting level to create the item to be enchanted. You cannot enchant a sword of the highest quality as a novice weaponsmith.

2) A way to cast the spell (perhaps a scroll, or the ability to cast the spell yourself, or a wizard you could hire to cast the spell for you), including any needed material components.

3) A special skill to bind the casted magic to an item (or perhaps specific type of item - seperate abilities for weapons, then armor, then wands, etc.) This skill may easily scale with spell levels, so an enchanter of low level can only bind lower-level spells.

I would say that the spell needs to be cast, yes, absolutely, but I can see plenty of ways you should be able to get around that without actually learning to cast the spell yourself.

This is conjecture, but it makes sense to me.

[Valkenr]

Southraven wrote:

There is an implication, although I don't think it's ever been said outright, that crafting skills will form their own 'paths'. So by selecting crafting abilities you are effectively multi-classing and taking the penalties of time associated with that.

I say this based on the wording of the Destiny's Twin reward in the Kickstarter

"As a special feature of Adventurer accounts, you'll be able to have two characters training skills at the same time! While one character is learning how to master the martial arts and gain renown as a warrior, your other character can be learning the intricacies of the crafting system and earning a name as an industrial powerhouse"

While I guess you could do this at once, the implication is that the 'crafting alt' would normally be a completely separate character

I wouldn't read much more into that quote other than being able to train crafting skills without slowing down your development in other areas.

It won't be like most MMO's where you 'craft as you go' to get good at crafting you have to stop progress in combat. Having an alt lets you keep combat training going.

[Ryuka Tana]

"Honestly, I really hope spellcasting isn't necessary, I think it's one of the worst aspects of DnD/Pathfinder. In general, I think it detracts entirely from the idea of playing an 'NPC' style class. I want to see dedicated crafters who never feel the need to be anything else (even if there are also less dedicated crafters that choose to adventure)."

[Soldack Keldonson]

The better approach is for them to flesh out the skill system and make it fun. THEN look at how to use Pathfinder lore to fit the skill system. If you try to change the MMO design based on the pen and paper rules, you will have less of a MMO.

[Uthreth Baelcoressitas]

Soldack, what "MMO design" are you talking about? They're basically creating something new. The skill system is like EVE's only in the basic structure of it, besides that they're relying on Crowdforging to create an entirely new entity. It wouldn't make sense for them to start with any other MMO design.

[Kalmyel Stedwethren]

It has already been stated that you personally will not be crafting anything - you'll be getting abunch of NPCs to do it, and "manage" the process with your trained skills. If you personally aren't crafting, requiring you personally to be a spellcaster for magic items seems unnecessary.

[Imbicatus]

Crafting and Enchanting may be two seperate things. While crafing items and whatnot won't require and caster levels, enchanting might.

[Richter Bones]

Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:

It has already been stated that you personally will not be crafting anything - you'll be getting abunch of NPCs to do it, and "manage" the process with your trained skills. If you personally aren't crafting, requiring you personally to be a spellcaster for magic items seems unnecessary.

I don't see magic items being mass produced. While some aspects will be managed like a mining camp or a place that refines raw materials. Some items will just be so specialized that it will take the dedication of a character to make them.

I could see a type of enchanting skill tree that is separate from a casting tree. To get a certain spell enchanted into an item though you may have to pay for the services of a wizard to cast the spell on the item during production.

[Harad Navar]

From Your Pathfinder Online Character: "Monks—masters of ki power."

I hope monks will be able to craft items that involve ki. I would like to empower that Staff of Circles with ki to make the knock-back farther.

[Kalmyel Stedwethren]

@ Richter - don't think "mass produced", think "commissioned". Actually having your character involved in crafting is something I was pushing for, but the system as it stands is "fire up the NPCs and come back in a few hours". As much as I'd like to, I will not be crafting anything, just asking my private bevy of craft-slaves to do it for me.

[Dakcenturi]

I would be ok with non-magic users crafting magic items IF it did have some sort of component needed IE a scroll or magic item it could utilize the necessary spell from.

This would allow more crafting opportunities for a wider range of individuals while still providing a market for the spell casters to sell scrolls and the like.

One thing I think should solely be in the purview of magic crafters are things like spell books and maybe divine symbols.

[Dakcenturi]

Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:

@ Richter - don't think "mass produced", think "commissioned". Actually having your character involved in crafting is something I was pushing for, but the system as it stands is "fire up the NPCs and come back in a few hours". As much as I'd like to, I will not be crafting anything, just asking my private bevy of craft-slaves to do it for me.

Not completely true. The workers can run into *snags* where it stops production and you have to actively do something to get production going again. So while you could give the orders and leave, you have a better chance at things being more timely if you stay and see the process through.

I would hope they maybe also add in mechanics where you're continued input provides some sort of enhancement or something.

[Hark]

I'm kind of hoping that enchanting magical items is a part of caster classes, but doesn't actually require any advancement in the caster tree beyond just the enchantment skills and merits.

This would allow a dedicated crafter to get into enchantment without investing in non-crafting related abilities while not inhibiting the advancement of casters that feel that Enchantment is an important part of being a caster.

I personally want to max out Wizard as fast as I can, and since I feel that enchantment is an important part of a complete Wizard I don't want to have to detour through a crafting tree to pick up enchantment, or lose access to my Wizard class bonuses just because I have an Enchanting ability slotted.

[Fiendish]

Hark wrote:

I'm kind of hoping that enchanting magical items is a part of caster classes, but doesn't actually require any advancement in the caster tree beyond just the enchantment skills and merits.

This would allow a dedicated crafter to get into enchantment without investing in non-crafting related abilities while not inhibiting the advancement of casters that feel that Enchantment is an important part of being a caster.

I personally want to max out Wizard as fast as I can, and since I feel that enchantment is an important part of a complete Wizard I don't want to have to detour through a crafting tree to pick up enchantment, or lose access to my Wizard class bonuses just because I have an Enchanting ability slotted.

Well not sure how fast maxing your character will be as they've stated in the blog they are looking at 2+ real time years to see the first characters reach "level 20".

I think there should be several types of enchanting, possibly arcane enchanting being a part of the wizard skills that could be pursued but not the only means of enchanting to avoid everyone having a wizard.

[Hark]

Oh I know it will take 2 1/2 years. That is why I don't want to take a 6 month detour to learn hat I feel is an essential wizard skill. And yes I feel all primarily magic classes should have thier own specialized enchanting skills.

[Flexie]

I don't know how much R.A. Salvatore books are used in pathfinder lore (if at all), but I remember in one of the Icewind Dale books that Bruenor crafted a magic infused weapon Eagis-Fang with some diamond dust, a scroll and some other -probably very rare- components. Also it seems that the time in the moon cycle and some other things were very important.

Perhaps this is how the crafting of rare magical items should be, each rare magical item has it's own unique steps you need to perform and materials you need to gather.
For example lets say the legendary bow Sun Flayer (made up name) which is extra effective against creatures of the night due to it's infused pure light/holiness, requires the following steps to be created:
- A one year old willow (need wood lore) where the bow staff will be carved from, needs to be cut down on the dawn of the longest day of the year.
- The string needs to be made from the leg muscle of an ancient silver dragon, needs to be procured by either killing it in single honorable combat (impossible?), or willingly given when the dragon is passing on, by having done an act of extreme valor. It needs to be cured by oiling it with blessed ointment from a paladin/clerical order, and left to soak in for 3 moon cycles.
- The handle grip is made from a pristine piece of hide from a magical beast that prefers light over darkness.

Also to find out how to make this items you need to run across several pieces of information that are randomly found (never found in the same place), some of which are from ancient books in the game, others from tables you find in ancient ruins, or from bardic songs of legend, ...

You get the picture, very hard to get and takes a long time frame to create them. Perhaps this way we too will get that amazing sense of pride in the fact that we were able to create something unique, something only a couple people will ever get. Something that may feel like a life's work (while not actually taking up a life time of course). The odds that one player can make one item is very small, the odds that one player can make two items is near impossible.

I realize this is very idealistic and maybe a lot of people will not support this view, let alone the fact it is probably extremely hard to implement this with enough rare magical items and with each it's unique steps and materials. I just think this would be the crafting pinnacle of an MMO.

[Valcili]

the ability to craft Items I think will likely be something that anyone can do, and enchanting (or crafting magic items) as well is something anyone should be able to do. In a way it is already similar to E.V.E., you will need to first attain the skills to craft magic items just like a spell caster is required to have the feat to craft an item, then you need to have the resources to create the item. Similar to E.V.E. you need a facility to conduct your work in, just like in Pathfinder you'll need a facility to craft your magic items. lastly you need time to complete the work.
As all this will probably be the same in PFO it is safe to assume (since most charter companies will be making the towns, fort, and cities) that there will be specialist who will sell their services to those who want items crafted, or lease out space in their Facility to others to craft items of their own.

There is possible option: NPC and players,
1. Lab owners have NPC that to the crafting labor for the player. Services made available to others.
1.1: Skill tree required to manage NPCs.
1.1.1: More skills needed for multiple NPCs.
1.1.2: NPCs with certain crafting skills are required to be purchased for the lab.
1.1.3: More expensive NPCs can have more crafting skills (IE potions, wands, arms and armor, ETC)
1.1.4: Non magic crafting NPCs would be separate from magic crafting NPCs.
1.2: Since time is required to craft magic items, it is harder to manage NPCs vice doing it yourself thus taking longer to craft.
1.2.2: Skill tree could allow one to become a specialist craft manager to manage NPCs more efficiently improving crafting time. (Similar to an increased DC with accelerated item crafting in PF)
1.3: As with E.V.E. Blueprints can be used (but not required) craft magic items.
1.3.1: These would inform others of what resources are necessary to craft a certain item.
1.3.1.1: Initially Blueprints don't exist, but can be discovered though experimentation, then saved and traded.

Hark wrote:

Oh I know it will take 2 1/2 years. That is why I don't want to take a 6 month detour to learn hat I feel is an essential wizard skill. And yes I feel all primarily magic classes should have thier own specialized enchanting skills.

I don't think that having the wizard path have crafting in it would be effective, as wizards are not the only class with the ability to craft magic items, anyone with the ability to use magic has the potential to make magic items, since there technically is not going to be a class skill tree, you technically would not be taking a detour from the path of wizard. So no matter which path you choose for yourself, if you want to lean a crafting you're going to have to take time to train that skill and put others aside to do it, you'll just need to prioritize what important to you. If I had a ranger I wanted to learn to craft an item, should there be some craft skills in the ranger path, so that the wizard path doesn't have an advantage over him?

If time is an issue for you to reach level 20 as fast as possible, consider the "Twin Destiny" and train an ALT with the crafting skills parallel to your wizard. this will probably be the fastest way to gain crafting and a lvl 20 wizard. then once you his level 20 you can swap them and train your wizard in crafting and your talk in something else. I believe there will be many people do this exact thing, only they'll make their alt an crafting specialist and make that a primary business endeavor. Especially those in large successful charters.

[Hark]

I think every class should have some crafting skills for it. Every primarily casting class should have their own set of specialized enchantments that they can to craft. Clerics holy enchantments, Druids nature enchantments, Wizards arcane enchantments, etc. Rangers would probably get traps and snares for crafting. There would probably be some degree of overlap with crafting, but not enough that learning multiple crafting trees is a waste for example all enchantment trees might provide the bonus to hit and damage for weapons and AC for armor, but they provide different special abilities.

[Being]

Dakcenturi wrote:

Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:

@ Richter - don't think "mass produced", think "commissioned". Actually having your character involved in crafting is something I was pushing for, but the system as it stands is "fire up the NPCs and come back in a few hours". As much as I'd like to, I will not be crafting anything, just asking my private bevy of craft-slaves to do it for me.

Not completely true. The workers can run into *snags* where it stops production and you have to actively do something to get production going again. So while you could give the orders and leave, you have a better chance at things being more timely if you stay and see the process through.

I would hope they maybe also add in mechanics where you're continued input provides some sort of enhancement or something.

If memory serves Richter may have the right of it. At least I have been carrying around the impression that usually your NPC workers are producing normal items but the player character can step in at any time and produce a quality item per their crafting skill.

[Banecrow]

Keep it pure to how Pathfinder works!

Casters only to enchant. That means any type of caster btw can learn the skills, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer and Wizard for the core classes.

Only the PURE melee classes are left out. This is how it should be, enchanting an item is the ability to infuse it with magic. How can you infuse something with magic if you do not know how to do magic in the first place.

[Hobbun]

I truly hope not.

I plan to be a dedicated crafter. And one of the things that really has drawn PFO to me is the asssurances that crafting will be just as an important a path as playing a Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, etc.

If you need a caster to make magic items, you are already watering down the path of a crafter with him needing reliance on someone to actually craft any magic item. I can understand the reliance on someone in gathering the materials, as they can be in dangerous areas, but if you choose to be a crafter, you should be able to fully make items, even high end, if you decide to spend the time in going down that path.

[Hark]

That is why I proposed it as a caster class tree that doesn't have pre-reqs elsewhere in the caster tree. It allows dedicated crafters to dip in and grab enchantment abilities without needing to pick up a bunch of casting abilities too.

[Richter Bones]

I also don't want to have to be a cleric to be a dedicated healer with healing spells either.

I think the idea behind the skill system is that you can develop a character in whatever image you want.

If I want to devote my time to a healing tree, alchemy tree, and potion brewing tree then I have a character that can specialize in all types of healing.

[Hobbun]

Hark wrote:

That is why I proposed it as a caster class tree that doesn't have pre-reqs elsewhere in the caster tree. It allows dedicated crafters to dip in and grab enchantment abilities without needing to pick up a bunch of casting abilities too.

But 'dipping' into a caster class tree is requiring you to deviate from you crafter tree. That is something you shouldn't need to do. The crafter tree should include the crafting of not only mundane items, but also making the Bags of Holding, Belt of Giant Strength, magicai weapons/armors, etc.

Now of course, there will probably be different crafting tree paths (like making magical swords compared to magical armor), but the magical items 'should' be part of the crafter tree, not a caster tree.

Richter Bones wrote:

I also don't want to have to be a cleric to be a dedicated healer with healing spells either.

I think the idea behind the skill system is that you can develop a character in whatever image you want.

If I want to devote my time to a healing tree, alchemy tree, and potion brewing tree then I have a character that can specialize in all types of healing.

That is different.

From what has been said, crafters will be as equal as other classes (archetypes). From what you are saying, for a crafter to be able to use his tree to the fullest, he 'must' take a caster of some sort to enchant the item. If that is the case, then the crafter is not viewed equally as an archetype, but only a subset.

If it ends up playing out that way, I may need to re-evaulate my decision to play PFO. As I said above, one of the main aspects drawing me to PFO was the focus on the crafting is just as equal as an archtype.

[Richter Bones]

My point is that I don't want to have to be a cleric to be a healer. You don't want to be a caster to craft magical items. I am hoping that everything will have it's own independent skill tree.

If a crafted magical item requires a spell and you are unable to cast it yourself, then you should be able to contract it out.

[Being]

I'd say we should stay alert for more info on whether crafting will be as central to the design as other expressions of play.

[Banecrow]

I think people are missing the point here. Crafting something is a skill anyone can learn. Enchanting something is when you take an item that someone made (your self or someone else) and then adding magic too it.

Anyone can craft

Only those who can use magic can enchant.

These are two seperate things and they should be kept seperate. You cannot have everything and this game is Pathfinder Online remember. It is based off of how the table top game works.

Remember enchanters will still need people to make master work items for them to enchant. This will help promote an economey in the game where other peoples items will be needed by others.

[KitNyx]

Hark wrote:

Oh I know it will take 2 1/2 years. That is why I don't want to take a 6 month detour to learn hat I feel is an essential wizard skill. And yes I feel all primarily magic classes should have thier own specialized enchanting skills.

I completely disagree, while you are focusing on your magery, I hope I am able to spend all 2.5 years becoming a master enchanter. I hope crafting trees are separate archetype neutral areas one can choose to exclusively advance.

As for the OPs question. Since one can multiclass, having an archetype neutral enchanting tree in the "crafting area" means even a primarily fighter can advance in the tree, giving that fighter access to that use of magic...and the ability to enchant weapons (essentially making the character a very limited caster).

I also have no problem with "multiclassing" with one archetype and some crafting abilities not removing access to their archetype's capstone. But, I do think they should be exclusive training-wise. At any one time one should only be able to train one skill, no matter what archetype/class/role it is in.

[Richter Bones]

Not missing the point. The idea that we're talking about is that learning to enchant an item doesn't require you to be a full-fledged wizard, cleric, bard, etc..

[Banecrow]

Richter Bones wrote:

Not missing the point. The idea that we're talking about is that learning to enchant an item doesn't require you to be a full-fledged wizard, cleric, bard, etc..

Correct but it should require you invest some time learning some of the skills in order to be able to "unlock" the enchanting skill tree.

[KitNyx]

I think "training a level" in enchanting would be equivalent to training a limited type of wizardry, book learned magic manipulation. Since anyone can train anything, the question then really should be, should a non-caster archetype training enchanting loose access to their capstone?

Personally I think that is about as absurd as saying non-melee (STR) based archetypes training blacksmithing loose access to their capstones.

[Aelryinth]

Keep in mind that the whole 'rare components' aspect of making magical items is part and parcel of the gold cost.

i.e. there is a whole and massive subindustry out there providing rare and weird components for use in magical items. The cost of acquiring those items is the GP cost of the magic item.

Forcing the maker to go out and collect rare components makes no sense when he could hire someone else to do and spend his own time more productively...and there will be lots of people willing to do the tasks, because it would pay extremely well (ever wonder why magic items are expensive?)

==Aelryinth

[Hobbun]

Banecrow wrote:

Richter Bones wrote:

Not missing the point. The idea that we're talking about is that learning to enchant an item doesn't require you to be a full-fledged wizard, cleric, bard, etc..

Correct but it should require you invest some time learning some of the skills in order to be able to "unlock" the enchanting skill tree.

Then why not make that ‘enchanting tree’ part of the crafter tree, at least in regards to enchanting items. Obviously a Wizard will have his enchantment spells, which would not be part of a crafter tree.

[Banecrow]

Hobbun wrote:

Banecrow wrote:

Richter Bones wrote:

Not missing the point. The idea that we're talking about is that learning to enchant an item doesn't require you to be a full-fledged wizard, cleric, bard, etc..

Correct but it should require you invest some time learning some of the skills in order to be able to "unlock" the enchanting skill tree.

Then why not make that ‘enchanting tree’ part of the crafter tree, at least in regards to enchanting items. Obviously a Wizard will have his enchantment spells, which would not be part of a crafter tree.

Because enchanting an item is NOT crafting. It is taking a finished product and then adding magic too it.

[Hobbun]

Banecrow wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

Banecrow wrote:

Richter Bones wrote:

Not missing the point. The idea that we're talking about is that learning to enchant an item doesn't require you to be a full-fledged wizard, cleric, bard, etc..

Correct but it should require you invest some time learning some of the skills in order to be able to "unlock" the enchanting skill tree.

Then why not make that ‘enchanting tree’ part of the crafter tree, at least in regards to enchanting items. Obviously a Wizard will have his enchantment spells, which would not be part of a crafter tree.

Because enchanting an item is NOT crafting. It is taking a finished product and then adding magic too it.

And I disagree. The enchantment process is part of the process of making a completed magic item, which I feel a crafter should be able to do.

Please, let’s get away from the traditional “if it’s enchanting, it HAS to be a mage.” I am more looking along the lines of gameplay than what has been done before.

[Richter Bones]

I would think the crafting tree would not be one, but many different trees. It may or may not have a centralized trunk, but for the most part people will probably focus on one crafting tree before moving on to the next. Some items will probably require the expertise from several trees. (i.e. armorsmithing, blacksmithing, weaponsmithing, glass blowing, engineering, carpentry, weaving, leatherworking, bowing, carving, butchering, fletching, fermenting, alchemy, brewing, herding, farming, cobbling, masonry, and enchanting just to name a few.)

[Banecrow]

Hobbun wrote:

And I disagree. The enchantment process is part of the process of making a completed magic item, which I feel a crafter should be able to do.

Please, let’s get away from the traditional “if it’s enchanting, it HAS to be a mage.” I am more looking along the lines of gameplay than what has been done before.

I never said it had to be a mage, there are quite a few classes that can learn the feats needed to enchant items.

Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer and Wizard

From the core classes. Arcane OR divine magic works, they just need some magic in order to enchant something.

The only classes that cannot enchant are the barbarian, fighter, monk and rogue. You have more classes that CAN learn to do it than those that cannot. 7 that can and only 4 that cannot. (and to be honest I think with some rogue talents that give them access to magic they might be able to learn some enchanting also if they take the right path)

There are plenty of options avialable for players who want to do enchanting.

[Hobbun]

Oh, I agree with that. I am hoping that it will have a centralized trunk, but would understand if it is not set up that way.

I am going to attempt to be an all-around crafter as much as I can, but realize I am not going to be able to craft everything. But I do feel that all the crafting trees should have access to making magic items on their own (for their appropriate trees).

[Imbicatus]

I also think it will be interesting to see how specialized one can get in crafting similar types of items. In the real world, you may have a woodwooker who is skilled and able to make many different types items from chairs to frames to cabinents. But a cabinent made by someone who specializes in cabinets will be better than the generalist.

I wonder if we will have the same ability to go broad with weapon making to make functional weapons from muliple groups but to make masterwork swords.

[Hobbun]

Banecrow wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

And I disagree. The enchantment process is part of the process of making a completed magic item, which I feel a crafter should be able to do.

Please, let’s get away from the traditional “if it’s enchanting, it HAS to be a mage.” I am more looking along the lines of gameplay than what has been done before.

I never said it had to be a mage, there are quite a few classes that can learn the feats needed to enchant items.

Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer and Wizard

From the core classes. Arcane OR divine magic works, they just need some magic in order to enchant something.

The only classes that cannot enchant are the barbarian, fighter, monk and rogue. You have more classes that CAN learn to do it than those that cannot. 7 that can and only 4 that cannot. (and to be honest I think with some rogue talents that give them access to magic they might be able to learn some enchanting also if they take the right path)

There are plenty of options avialable for players who want to do enchanting.

Mage was just an example, if you wish, you can substitute that with ‘caster archetype’.

My point is the job of the crafter is to create items, and I mean create as in fully (and not counting gathering resources), magical abilities and all.

If you remove the option of making magical items for crafters, then they just become the middle step in getting that powerful item. “Thank you for your masterworked sword, but I will go to ‘x’ caster now to finish it.”

Maybe that’s how it works in Pathfinder PP, but as Ryan has said more than once, not everything is going to transfer over to PFO from the PP version. I think this is one of those areas that shouldn’t as well.

It seems everyone feels that crafter should be just a side profession where anyone can take it, it is not one of the important careers. It even has said it should be a neutral tree so anyone can take it without penalty of losing your capstone. Why should crafter be that throwaway skill tree(s)?

From what I have read, crafter is supposed to be just as important as any archetype. I am still hoping that is the case, but if it’s like anything what people are hoping for in this thread, then I will have my doubts.

It has been said that crafting will produce the most powerful items in the game. But if you are only able to create mundane items, I don’t see that happening.

[Banecrow]

Also something else to remember.

Crafting has its own skills, Craft Leatherworker, Craft Armorer etc. Each is it's own skill and even in table top if you roll a 1 on a craft check you make some progress towards making your items.

With enchanting you use the Spellcraft skill. There is not craft roll in making the item, the item is already made. The roll you make is for forcing the magic into the item in a way it will take. If you fail the roll then not only is there no progress, you do not pass go and you do not collect your $200. Fail the roll and you just wasted all the money and items used in trying to enchant it. There is no oh I was distracted I will try to finish this project tomorrow, you just wasted all those materials as the magic fails.

[Hobbun]

Yes, I understand how the tabletop version works. But again, that doesn’t necessarily mean PFO will work that way.

[IronVanguard]

Wait, isn't there a feat that handles this anyways?
Master Craftsman
Well, Master Craftsman allows for some ways to bypass it, at least.

[Hark]

I think crafting is the kind of job that should take several people to make. Each person builds or works on a different part. In this case Enchanter is just a different craftsman working on a different part of the item creation process.

But I fail to see how the Enchantment trees being a caster skill with no pre-reqs would at all interfere with dedicated craftsmen learning enchantments for their items.