Hey Community
I'm once again in need of help, and the community is always fantastic.
So I have gotten a chance to read the first part of the RotRL adventure path in detail while skimming the remaining parts. However currently I'm having an issue with what player options, and character creation rules should be available. My group has a long history of players suffering from as I like to call it "archetype bloat". Regardless of the game being played, setting, theme, etc they like to apply archetypes almost for no other reason other then "it's there so why not." These decisions compounded with the fact that many of these characters are only skin deep leads to the creation of sub optimal characters. They usually play rocket tag(the practice of having nothing but offensively minded characters, with no healing, buff, and such), and as such can't make it past the 3rd to 5th levels to which they complain about not getting into higher level play.
For example in my last home brew setting I gave the players the option of choosing what part of the world they wanted to start in. I informed them of the threats and conflicts going on and what the theme of each was, then gave them a movie reference to further cement the idea. They choose a desert region, which was the ancient lands of a long dead empire. The area was largely populated by nomadic gnomes, however undead were beginning to crawl out of the sands and roam the dunes for some mysterious purpose. The game was going to be a undead centric very classic pulp adventure kind of game. The theme was a mixture of "Indiana Jones" and "The Mummy". I made sure they were fully informed of what fighting undead was like and advised them on some pro-versus undead choices. However the party I got was interesting...if not dysfunctional. It included a Halfling Summoner with one of the best accent I've ever heard, a combat medic Monk of the Four Winds, a Human Invulnerable Barbarian, a pacifist Merfolk Oracle of the Wind, and a Tengu Sandman Bard. I again informed some of them of the inherent weaknesses in their characters but they choose to continue anyways. The party wiped on the first dungeon encounter versus two mummies when 3 party members were 5th level and the other two 3rd. I designed the encounter as a straight fight and not something they could cheese a victory out of. In hindsight this encounter may have been impossible, but at the time I was hoping to put some fear in the players and force them to realize they had to buckle down.
Now I'm fine with party wipes, I'm not okay with unhappy players and boy did I have some unhappy players. My summoner player didn't realize the summoner isn't an offensive caster and was miffed at a 0-level cantrip being the only damaging spell he had. My oracle made my other players unhappy as he was a huge liability, and he opted to not take a single useful spell other then cure light wounds and spent his time creating water on enemies and casting sanctuary on himself. My monk player was completely invalidated as the use of cure light wounds undermined his selection of feats,traits, etc. My bard didn't get to use any of his class features ever. The only player whom didn't have any issue was the barbarian(whom is important for later, we'll can him "The Player"). Now after this experience I got a great deal of lamenting from the players,about both the difficulty of the encounter and/or the sub optimal class options they had taken. While no one blamed me for their choices they were upset at the fact they were useless or at the least not what they were hoping for. I got so much of this, that I questioned my everything available ruling for content. At the time the only rules I had was no laptop for players and only content form a book someone owns a print copy of, as computers have a distracting nature for my players.
Flash forward to the present and I'm going to run RotRL. I want to avoid what happened before and also have a party that can live up to the epic high fantasy feel of the adventure path. I also want players to feel part of a truly epic story and be excited about gaming because their invested in their characters, not because they want to play some more grand theft auto pathfinder edition where they can just have some crazy antics and wreck up the place. I'm looking for Lord of the Ring, Game of Thrones, level seriousness and fun. I'm not a hard knocks Gm, but I don't want to run another Monty Python the holy grail kind of game. It's also looking like I'm going to have about 3-4 brand new players whom have never played pathfinder before, so I want to avoid the "option flood" that can discourage and confuse new players.So I came up with a list of restriction that I felt were fair. I've never run the adventure before so this is very blind leading the blind.I only have options from the core, inner sea guide, and advanced players guide as far as player content goes, and still have my need a hard copy rule in place.
-All core classes
-All base classes(apg classes)
-All feats
-All spells
-traits open(4 a piece,this equal two bonus feats)
-Hero points
-No alternative racail features
-No favored racail options
-No Archetypes
-No Multiclassing
-No Prestiage Classes
-All equipment
-All bonus class feature options(rage powers, rogue talents, ranger combat styles etc)
So I give this to my players are I get a "Awwwww thats dumb" kind of reaction from some of the players. I explains my reasons as being to provide an environment in which no class has any more options then a another, and that I'm trying to insure there are no "wrong choices". I also explain I'm looking for leveling to be quick and simple, and to avoid builds and dipping. I also inform them of my desire to have a serious and intense game. This is at a very impromptu meetup and only has a few of the group there. Two of my players(The summoner and the monk from the previous game. These guys are two of my closet friends and are really great to game with.They always try to step up their game and surprise me) move on from the issue and even look forward to the seriousness of the game, but one has been rather discouraged by the restriction. Now I don't feel "bad" about the restrictions persay, although I do want to know if I'm being fair or being overzealous. I don't want to solve a problem with a wrecking ball when I could solve it with a hammer. But I'm having trouble with helpping this player find new character options, and he's being difficult. He's the type of person whom will be stubborn just because someone is pushing. He's also a player whom gets all if not most of his inspiration from video games and manga, and he's been playing Diablo 3 lately. This is also the same person whom played the barbarian in the previous game who didn't have anything bite him in the butt. While brainstorming characters at this meetup he comes to me and...
The Player:"so I've got a great idea for a witchdoctor character."
Me:"oh, do tell."
The Player:"Well he's an herbalist who..well did you ever play WoW and start picking herbs and then end up on the otherside of the world and not know how you got there."
Me:"Umm, no..but okay...I guess"
The Player:" ya thats how I figured he'd join the party and I figured out his name too. Doctor Zom b machker, he's gonna dress himself up in a nice suit and carry himself like a real doctor"
Me: O_O
The Player:" I was going to use the gravewalker archetype but that restricted, but I could make them a alchemist instead"
Me:"Well the character isn't up to the level of seriousness I was looking for but let's look at the races and regions and see if we can find something that works"
Two hours and a name change later we have a Ulfen witch who fled Irrisen as a young boy. Orphaned after his parent died trying to protect him from being claimed by a witch coven. He selected a snow weasel as his familiar and an animal patron. Largely a recluse he tries to not reveal much about himself as he's fearful of what would happen should news of his whereabouts reach the witch coven and those who pursue him. The player is for the most part happy and I feel much better having avoided the "Doctor Zom b Machker" incident. All is going well until two hours after I get home I receive a message saying he's reconsidered and now wants to change his patron to plague as "if i was going to do anything with animals I'd be a druid" and "plague fits the witch doctor theme more", I explain the inherent difference between the witch and the druid and that the patron only determines bonus spells. I also comment on how witch doctor is only a different term for shaman or medicine man, but that falls on deft ears. The player however is very insistent that he rather be a hermit recluse whom makes undead and that he largely want the character to now be ,for lack of a better term, on drugs. I explain that this won't work and ask why he's so insistent on this "witchdoctor" idea and if there is anything else he's considered. He replies that the witchdoctor idea is the only idea he has that could "fit" in the restriction, as his two other ideas a multiclassed martial artist monk savage skald bard, and some kind of farmer boy. As it stands now this player has no character, and the future looks grim as far as possibilities. I personal dislike joke characters as their existence is justified only by something the player finds witty and only as long as they find the joke funny. Once the joke has run out the player stops having fun with the character and usually becomes bored at the table.
So my questions are
A)Am I being unreasonable in both my restrictions and with dealing with The Player. I want to make it so my player characters "fit" the adventure path and have been advised on the usefulness of Varisia, Birthplace of Legends supplements usefulness for such. But even more I want people to have fun with a serious game, I want it to be immersive and exciting. The very reason I picked up the RotRL adventure was because of the reviews of its challenging nature and epic quality content. I'm looking for something similar to the shackles AP players guide, where it advises archetypes and other options so that players are flavorful, optimal, and fun. How can I get the best of all three worlds here?
B) How would you deal/dealt with my "Zom b Machker" player. How should I go about being both stern but also fair and encouraging?
Thanks
P.s. Thank you for being patient and reading this. I truly appreciate it.
How about being an oracle of bones? And if he wants to be a junkie, take the wasting curse and show him pictures of meth addicts.
As far as the hermit thing goes, what gets him into adventure? Prophecy, maybe? An all-consuming greed grows and even the stones feel it. Suggest maybe that he's part of a Varisian clan and his hermitage is a wagon that usually parks apart from the rest of the clan... who are all in Sandpoint for the Swallowtail Festival.
How about being an oracle of bones? And if he wants to be a junkie, take the wasting curse and show him pictures of meth addicts.
As far as the hermit thing goes, what gets him into adventure? Prophecy, maybe? An all-consuming greed grows and even the stones feel it. Suggest maybe that he's part of a Varisian clan and his hermitage is a wagon that usually parks apart from the rest of the clan... who are all in Sandpoint for the Swallowtail Festival.
He looked at the oracle but didn't seem interested. I may have a hard time selling it to him. What get's them into adventuring is one of the biggest questions I ask my players, and they know it. He has yet to come up with an answer. I do like the Varisian clan in Sandpoint idea, as I have another player who's a Varisian. I'll past this idea on to the both of them. It's a very simple way to have them at the festival. Thanks
Concerning your restrictions: Not allowing non-core races and archetypes is fine. 4 traits very generous. The only thing I personally would feel a bit overly restricting is the complete lack of multiclassing and prestige classes. RotRL goes into high levels (levels 16-17) and those are the games that really make multiclass and prestige class characters interesting (and in most cases playable).
That being said: YOU are the GM. Yes, your party should have a say in rule choices but since the "everything is allowed" approach didn't work out at all, I think using some restrictions is totally fair. After all, each of them must only manage a single character, but you must manage the whole campaign.
I also don't think there are many character concepts that can't work with the core classes. Even less if you add the base classes. That which doctor could be any spellcasting class: wizard (necromancer), sorcerer, cleric, oracle, witch... Even bard would work perfectly fine if you reflavor his abilities as "blessing from beyond", with helpful spirits and what have you.
"The player" needs to seperate his roleplaying and the rules. There are VERY few (if any) character concepts that absolutely require a certain archetype to work.
You are the DM. Set the game up how you see it running. If the players don't want to get onboard with that, then I would ask someone else to DM. By caving too much, you will end up not having a good time and feel like you wasted all of your prep time.
Moreover, how you setup the campaign at the very beginning is one of the most important points.
Your restrictions are fine. I would add a 15 pt buy as well.
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What get's them into adventuring is one of the biggest questions I ask my players, and they know it. He has yet to come up with an answer.
THIS is the most important point in my view. How does he want to benefit from the time he will spend playing with your group ? What does he want his character to be good at ? Why does he want to play this or that character ? What does he expects his characters to bring him ?
Also, which role does he want to play in combat ? How does he see his character acting in a combat encounter ? In a social encounter ? In a mystery/riddle encounter ?
As long as both he and you have no concept of the character he will be happy playing, it is no use going further into the creation of his character.
And if you cannot find it together, start playing without him (or give him a pregen that fills a vacant spot in the party). Maybe that will help him define and explain his concept faster.
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I'd simply remind your player(s) that YOU want to have fun as well and that running a character as such will detract from your enjoyment of the game. Comic relief is fine, over the top ridiculousness is not.
I've placed restrictions such as yours in the past (1) and have had player's tell me I'm a horrible DM for doing so as it destroyed the character concept they showed up with. My response to them was simply, "I think you're a horrible player if the best you can come up with is one concept." Doesn't solve the problem, but he got the point.
Stick to your guns, and put the onus on him as to whether he decides to ante up and "play well with others".
-Vaz
(1) Me: Ok guys, I'm running a low magic setting. No starting casters. The game will feature barren landscapes and ancient civilizations.
Player: I want to play a Shaman specializing in water spells, who has the Right to Hospitality and is a gypsy fortune teller.
Me: Maybe you didn't hear me. No starting spellcasters.
Player: Why not? Its the only thing I want to play.
...
I haven't had nearly as 'extreme case' of this problem as you have, but I have very creative players and their ideas are often pretty specific.
It seems to me like your players are consistently building character concepts in a vacuum. That is to say, they are looking at archetypes and classes and thinking up interesting combinations, and then bringing that to the table. They aren't looking at your setting or your campaign, or your theme, and using any of that in their creation.
What you might do is 'frontload' a little more information about the campaign, setting, and theme by giving them some more information about the region and its people. You might mention the archetypes and classes that are 'unusual', but native to the area. Once they see what is already there, maybe they will find something they are excited about.
For example, the region around Sandpoint has Shoanti barbarians, cyphermages in Riddleport, Varisian Harrowers, etc. There's stuff like the Varisian bravo (cad fighter) and Fortune-teller (tattoed sorceror) and the Shoanti Outider (mounted barbarian) and Totem Shaman (animal totem druid). There's feats like Thunder and Fang and Deadly dealer to fight with the Earthbreaker and Klar (or with a Harrow deck!), as well as exotic weapons like the bladed scarf. There are the Golemworks and Stone of the Seers in Magnimar, as well as the Hellknights.
Maybe giving them an idea of the 'weirdness' that is appropriate to Sandpoint and Varisia will help channel their creative urges productively.
I'm not sure you need a lot of creation restrictions, as much as you need each person to tone down the 'unusual' choices they made. For instance, you might allow everyone a little flexibility, but not a lot on any character.
For instance, you might define 'normal' for choices (here's just an example):
Normal Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Half-Elf
Normal Classes: Fighter, Cleric, Druid, Rogue, Wizard, Ranger
Normal Archetypes: only the base archetype
Normal Ethnicity: Chelaxian, Shoanti, Varisian
Normal Alignment: Good
Then you could say that people can have 'weird' choices, but limit them to one or two. The weird choices are any non-'normal' ones. If you give out two 'weird' choices, someone could play a Half-Orc barbarian, but they would have to be good, and only take the basic archetype, and their human half would have to be Chelaxian, Shoanti, or Varisian. Or someone could play a human fighter, but pick an archetype and be from Andoran.
I think a lot of the time, troublesome characters are just too many unusual choices all rolled up into one. The other thing is a real sense of belonging to the location.
On the other hand, someone trying to play a character named 'Zom B Mahker' in a serious campaign is deliberately trolling you, or otherwise unwilling to compromise to be part of a group.
I'd like to thank you fine folks for your comments and suggestions in dealing with this issue. I've gotten a chance to browse the Vasiria, Birth of Legends supplement. I very much like the idea behind roles, and the character suggestions it gives. Characters invested in the world work much better for a serious game. With that in mind, I may revise my restriction to further help my players define themselves in the world. I had intended to use the classic rolling method but point buy would insure strengths & weaknesses in characters.
Books
-Core
-Advanced Player Guide
-Varisa, Birthplace of Legends
-Ultimate Magic
-Ultimate Combat
-Inner Sea World Guide
My revised list would be
-All Races, but human being limited to (Chelaxain, Varisian, and Shoantian)
-All core classes
-All base classes(APG classes)
-Magi
-All feats
-All spells
-Two traits
-Hero points
-No alternative racial features
-No favored racial options
-All roles in Varisian, Birthplace of Legends and their corresponding archetypes and prestige classes(This would create a long list of flavorful options however to use said options I'd require a player to "buy into" the role, in a all or nothing fashion),however no archetypes allow outside the use of roles.
-Multiclassing
-Additional prestige Classes of Hellknight,all in the core other then pathfinder chronicler(Id like to save the pathfinder society for a shattered stars game),and all in the APG.
-All equipment
-All bonus class feature options(rage powers, rogue talents, ranger combat styles etc)
-One class of Arcane(Wizard,Sorcerer,etc), Piety(Cleric,Druid,etc), Brawn(Fighter,barbarian), & Guile(Rogue,Alchemist,etc) types required in the party as to promote a balance.
-15 point buy
-No Evil
-Character must desire to be a hero for some reason (Fame, Power, Glory, etc)
Thoughts, comments, concerns? Personally I find all of the options presented in Birthplace of legends to be pretty exciting and flavorful. Their also deeply connected to the world. As such I want to include them as options for my players.
Thanks
It seems to me like your players are consistently building character concepts in a vacuum. That is to say, they are looking at archetypes and classes and thinking up interesting combinations, and then bringing that to the table. They aren't looking at your setting or your campaign, or your theme, and using any of that in their creation.
What you might do is 'frontload' a little more information about the campaign, setting, and theme by giving them some more information about the region and its people. You might mention the archetypes and classes that are 'unusual', but native to the area. Once they see what is already there, maybe they will find something they are excited about.
This is the same conclusion I came to, they're coming up with charecter rosters and then just picking one when we go to sit down at the table. However what makes this even more frustrating is I'm a very involved Gm. I like to keep my players informed about all the character relevant information at all times. I sit down and work with my players one-on-one with each character in some fashion, and characters are usually fleshed out over the course of several weeks. However some fault is mine in that I used to run things in a kind of "The player is always right" fashion. I would try to fit character idea into the game in some fashion or another. Learning to say "No" has been wonderful, but I realize hearing it isn't something they may be use to. I'm hoping the inclusion of the Birthplace of Legends supplement will help them see what's there to be excited about.
For example, the region around Sandpoint has Shoanti barbarians, cyphermages in Riddleport, Varisian Harrowers, etc. There's stuff like the Varisian bravo (cad fighter) and Fortune-teller (tattoed sorceror) and the Shoanti Outider (mounted barbarian) and Totem Shaman (animal totem druid). There's feats like Thunder and Fang and Deadly dealer to fight with the Earthbreaker and Klar (or with a Harrow deck!), as well as exotic weapons like the bladed scarf. There are the Golemworks and Stone of the Seers in Magnimar, as well as the Hellknights.
Maybe giving them an idea of the 'weirdness' that is appropriate to Sandpoint and Varisia will help channel their creative urges productively.
I'm not sure you need a lot of creation restrictions, as much as you need each person to tone down the 'unusual' choices they made. For instance, you might allow everyone a little flexibility, but not a lot on any character.
For instance, you might define 'normal' for choices (here's just an example):
Normal Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Half-Elf
Normal Classes: Fighter, Cleric, Druid, Rogue, Wizard, Ranger
Normal Archetypes: only the base archetype
Normal Ethnicity: Chelaxian,...
This is a great idea and something I will use both now as well as in the future. I've never nailed norms down in this fashion, but I like how it works. Thanks
Suggestions:
I'd go for 20 pt buy. Can't hurt/. It gets deadly pretty quickly.
Human (Tien) should be allowed. One could be a retainer for the Kaijutsu household.
Further, some could be outlanders on the run.
But from your above example, it seems that teh palyers made characters without consulting each other.
They should discuss their concepts and roles with each other and then come up with a reason they're in Sandpoint.
Now, importantly: take note of character backgrounds and use them. You're on the run? Look who eventually shows up. You grandparents were killed by Alamon Scarnetti 42 years go? Well, that caused a mess that needs fixing today.
Origins:
No more than two should play outlanders (outside Varisia), and one should be a local boy (Sandpoint). The idea is that they want/need to stay.Pun Names:
You can't stop this. But they need to less juvenile than Zom B Maker. Our group's fighter is Procktar Sylax (Proctor-silex), which sounds Chelish, Our musket master (on the run from people in Alkenstar) translates to "Lion of the thunderous roar" (in bad arabic).You should at least insist that pun names be good puns!
And I agree with the above. You're not going to really get a serious game with the people who are used to, and don't want one. But you can blend a humourus game with serious consequences. (Look up the webcomic: "Looking for Group" or even Order of the Stick). You are NOT going to get Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings is storytelling, where the author dictates everything. This is a cooperative game, where all you can do is lay things out and manage repercussions dues to player action/inaction.
A greater deal of communication is definitely needed between the players. I agree with your idea of origins, expect I'd rather not have outsiders. As far as pun names go they have their place at the table. I agree with them having to be good puns, but also not something that will quickly wear out it's welcome. I've had a player role a dumb gnome barbarian whose first memory was waking up in a cannon, and thus named himself Cannon. The joke was amusing but never got in the way.
The funny thing is I've spoken to my other two players, and they are rather happy the game is more serious and are even looking forward to it. I agree that you can't force a group of 4-5 people to do something they don't want to, and in the end the game is about fun for all. But I've advertised the level of seriousness I'm hoping to run. You are correct that I'm not just going to get Lord of the Rings because I'm gm. I apologize if I've made that impression. I'm looking for Lord of the Ring as a SHARED vision for the game. That is also not to say their won't be jokes at the table, as there should be. The key thing is while there should be jokes at the table, the table should not be a joke. I realize now I should inform all my possible players of this fact and make sure that if they do play they're down with that.
I'd like to thank you fine folks for your comments and suggestions in dealing with this issue. I've gotten a chance to browse the Vasiria, Birth of Legends supplement. I very much like the idea behind roles, and the character suggestions it gives. Characters invested in the world work much better for a serious game. With that in mind, I may revise my restriction to further help my players define themselves in the world. I had intended to use the classic rolling method but point buy would insure strengths & weaknesses in characters.
Books
-Core
-Advanced Player Guide
-Varisa, Birthplace of Legends
-Ultimate Magic
-Ultimate Combat
-Inner Sea World GuideMy revised list would be
-All Races, but human being limited to (Chelaxain, Varisian, and Shoantian)
-All core classes
-All base classes(APG classes)
-Magi
-All feats
-All spells
-Two traits
-Hero points
-No alternative racial features
-No favored racial options
-All roles in Varisian, Birthplace of Legends and their corresponding archetypes and prestige classes(This would create a long list of flavorful options however to use said options I'd require a player to "buy into" the role, in a all or nothing fashion),however no archetypes allow outside the use of roles.
-Multiclassing
-Additional prestige Classes of Hellknight,all in the core other then pathfinder chronicler(Id like to save the pathfinder society for a shattered stars game),and all in the APG.
-All equipment
-All bonus class feature options(rage powers, rogue talents, ranger combat styles etc)
-One class of Arcane(Wizard,Sorcerer,etc), Piety(Cleric,Druid,etc), Brawn(Fighter,barbarian), & Guile(Rogue,Alchemist,etc) types required in the party as to promote a balance.
-15 point buy
-No Evil
-Character must desire to be a hero for some reason (Fame, Power, Glory, etc)Thoughts, comments, concerns? Personally I find all of the options presented in Birthplace of legends to be pretty exciting and flavorful. Their also deeply connected to the world. As such I want to...
Just wanted more feedback on this semi-new character list. Thanks
wow the new list is more difficult to follow whats allowed and whats not.
If it were me, Id prefer a more simple restricted list, if you were going to restrict anything.
You're allowing Magus, so there is my fist character pick.
Followed by:
Inquisitor,
Cleric
Ranger
Fighter
I take that back, rise of the rune lords? Dwarf Horselord Ranger, as long as I can take the feats from APG im set.
After that, magus.
i'd also play a rogue if there wasnt one. So many favored enemies for a good ole dawrf to have in the AP cant pass that UP!
but TBH. Can't make up your mind on a character. Play a fighter. Done.
I'm looking for something similar to the shackles AP players guide, where it advises archetypes and other options so that players are flavorful, optimal, and fun.
The RotRL Player's Guide for the Anniversary edition only gives half a page of "Character Tips", plus one page or so of campaign traits. Maybe that could be blended somehow with the 3.5 RotRL Player's Guide, which has four pages of character advice (for 3.5, so no APG classes, and no archetypes).
... And my mind boggled at the player who thought that it was a good idea to play a merfolk character in the middle of a desert. WTF?!?!? Was he/she even listening?!?
I'm looking for something similar to the shackles AP players guide, where it advises archetypes and other options so that players are flavorful, optimal, and fun.The RotRL Player's Guide for the Anniversary edition only gives half a page of "Character Tips", plus one page or so of campaign traits. Maybe that could be blended somehow with the 3.5 RotRL Player's Guide, which has four pages of character advice (for 3.5, so no APG classes, and no archetypes).
... And my mind boggled at the player who thought that it was a good idea to play a merfolk character in the middle of a desert. WTF?!?!? Was he/she even listening?!?
Ya it's pretty mind blowing, but I've since not welcomed them back. At the moment players are pretty excited about paizo's "roles" inclusion. Does anyone have any experience with Birthplace of Legends supplement? How effective was it in creating theme, and providing a world view for players?
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I would add one thing, having run RotRL once and looking to do so again. Since you're including character restrictions, I would have your characters find some reason to care about the town of Sandpoint. The adventure hooks are much easier when you have characters that care about something or someone in Sandpoint and are willing to work to protect it.
The first time through, my group was not well invested in the town and it was work to keep them on task. When I run the AP next time I'm going to make the Sandpoint connection mandatory, as well as requiring one of the characters to be interested in Thassilonian lore.
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I'd like to thank you fine folks for your comments and suggestions in dealing with this issue. I've gotten a chance to browse the Vasiria, Birth of Legends supplement. I very much like the idea behind roles, and the character suggestions it gives. Characters invested in the world work much better for a serious game. With that in mind, I may revise my restriction to further help my players define themselves in the world. I had intended to use the classic rolling method but point buy would insure strengths & weaknesses in characters.
Books
-Core
-Advanced Player Guide
-Varisa, Birthplace of Legends
-Ultimate Magic
-Ultimate Combat
-Inner Sea World GuideMy revised list would be
-All Races, but human being limited to (Chelaxain, Varisian, and Shoantian)
-All core classes
-All base classes(APG classes)
-Magi
-All feats
-All spells
-Two traits
-Hero points
-No alternative racial features
-No favored racial options
-All roles in Varisian, Birthplace of Legends and their corresponding archetypes and prestige classes(This would create a long list of flavorful options however to use said options I'd require a player to "buy into" the role, in a all or nothing fashion),however no archetypes allow outside the use of roles.
-Multiclassing
-Additional prestige Classes of Hellknight,all in the core other then pathfinder chronicler(Id like to save the pathfinder society for a shattered stars game),and all in the APG.
-All equipment
-All bonus class feature options(rage powers, rogue talents, ranger combat styles etc)
-One class of Arcane(Wizard,Sorcerer,etc), Piety(Cleric,Druid,etc), Brawn(Fighter,barbarian), & Guile(Rogue,Alchemist,etc) types required in the party as to promote a balance.
-15 point buy
-No Evil
-Character must desire to be a hero for some reason (Fame, Power, Glory, etc)Thoughts, comments, concerns?
I would add Ulfen and Taldan to the human ethnities, as both ethnities have Varisisa as one of their favored regions (and I think the non-ethnic Varisian was described as a Cheliaxian/Ulfen mix somewhere). The same would go for the Tian, but I see them as a little more exotic - still, maybe a good choice for a more exotic character.
I would add one thing, having run RotRL once and looking to do so again. Since you're including character restrictions, I would have your characters find some reason to care about the town of Sandpoint. The adventure hooks are much easier when you have characters that care about something or someone in Sandpoint and are willing to work to protect it.
The first time through, my group was not well invested in the town and it was work to keep them on task. When I run the AP next time I'm going to make the Sandpoint connection mandatory, as well as requiring one of the characters to be interested in Thassilonian lore.
As of right now, one of my players is really interested in the Cyphermages so I'm sure that will help. Thanks for the suggestion on investment in Sandpoint. I was going to have them be invested in Varisia in some fashion, but your right they should have some vested interest in Sandpoint.
I would add Ulfen and Taldan to the human ethnities, as both ethnities have Varisisa as one of their favored regions (and I think the non-ethnic Varisian was described as a Cheliaxian/Ulfen mix somewhere). The same would go for the Tian, but I see them as a little more exotic - still, maybe a good choice for a more exotic character.
I decided to included all three as they all have Varisia as a favored region. I figure however it must be a little hard for both Tains and Taldan to get into Varisia "easily," so I made a concession about Outlanders similar to what darkwarriorkarg suggested. I'm hoping to have the players call Varisia home in one place or another, but a bit of an exotic flare wouldn't be bad.
I'm actually just nearing the end of book 1 with a group of mostly new players, so I do have some good feedback I hope. Here is a list of rules that I gave my players:
- Core races are all allowed
- If you want to be anything outside core races you need to have a really good backstory as to why you are here and I need to approve it
- All core/base classes allowed
- Newer players are encouraged to pick martial characters or spontaneous casters. These usually require less pick up and play knowledge. Fighter, rogue, barbarian, sorcerer, and oracle are what I would define as the "easiest"
- If you are playing a class with more complex rules (vancian casting is something my group has real difficulty learning, animal companions, melee combat in general) you are required to *learn your class* and be ready to go at game time
- You could say that archetypes are only allowed with character background to match (I for example played an elven Spire Magus, who was in fact, from the Mordant Spire)
- If they're mostly new players dont let them play the magus. They are SUPER rules intensive; it will be a lot of work for both you and the player unless they are willing to learn it inside and out
- Give them 20 point buy. Maybe even 25. RotRL has been a TPK-fest for me and my 5 players.
In regards to player immersion... The first thing I did with my group, who are ALL new to golarion (minus one player), was whip out the poster map of Varisia. I explained to them in brief detail each of the major places, ethnicities, and history of the region. If the players have noooo idea where they are from in terms of the world, they are less likely to care. "Well I'm Ulfen, that means I'm a viking. I run and punch him in the face." <- That doesn't really cut it after a certain point. So give them extra resources that they can read up where they came from (lots of info on Sandpoint + Magnimar out there, where I encouraged my party to be from).
Require each of your party members to have a trait from the RotRL players guide (anniversary edition). It will give them a reason to be at the swallowtail festival.
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Not really specific advice about your campaign, but something to help with your players. Run a side campaign or one shot where anything goes. Bad pun names. 3.5 feats. Goblin ninja. Let your players use this side adventure as a chance to burn the crazy out of their system, so you can run a more serious adventure. I'd suggest grabbing a paizo module and run it as is. Go soft on them if they don't have all the tradional roles covered (or throw in a DMNPC to cover the holes, like a cleric for healing).
This worked wonders for my group and helped some of the wilder players (i.e., the goblin ninja) buckle down and get serious for the main game. Which is RoRL, BTW. We're in endgame now. They are assaulting the spire of Xin-Shalast, and have pulled down nearly every defender down on their head in one mass battle. It's hectic, but fun.
In the end, just try to have fun! It's the most important thing for everyone!
I'm actually just nearing the end of book 1 with a group of mostly new players, so I do have some good feedback I hope. Here is a list of rules that I gave my players:
- Core races are all allowed
- If you want to be anything outside core races you need to have a really good backstory as to why you are here and I need to approve it
- All core/base classes allowed
- Newer players are encouraged to pick martial characters or spontaneous casters. These usually require less pick up and play knowledge. Fighter, rogue, barbarian, sorcerer, and oracle are what I would define as the "easiest"
- If you are playing a class with more complex rules (vancian casting is something my group has real difficulty learning, animal companions, melee combat in general) you are required to *learn your class* and be ready to go at game time
- You could say that archetypes are only allowed with character background to match (I for example played an elven Spire Magus, who was in fact, from the Mordant Spire)
- If they're mostly new players dont let them play the magus. They are SUPER rules intensive; it will be a lot of work for both you and the player unless they are willing to learn it inside and out
- Give them 20 point buy. Maybe even 25. RotRL has been a TPK-fest for me and my 5 players.In regards to player immersion... The first thing I did with my group, who are ALL new to golarion (minus one player), was whip out the poster map of Varisia. I explained to them in brief detail each of the major places, ethnicities, and history of the region. If the players have noooo idea where they are from in terms of the world, they are less likely to care. "Well I'm Ulfen, that means I'm a viking. I run and punch him in the face." <- That doesn't really cut it after a certain point. So give them extra resources that they can read up where they came from (lots of info on Sandpoint + Magnimar out there, where I encouraged my party to be from).
Require each of your party members to have a trait from the RotRL players...
This is all fantastic, thanks for the tips. I've heard RotRL is a TPK-fest often so ya 20points would be better. Considering I'm using hero points I'm worried about 25 point buy however. Again awesome stuff.
p.s. It's kinda weird we have the same Avatar haha
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I decided to included all three as they all have Varisia as a favored region. I figure however it must be a little hard for both Tains and Taldan to get into Varisia "easily," so I made a concession about Outlanders similar to what darkwarriorkarg suggested. I'm hoping to have the players call Varisia home in one place or another, but a bit of an exotic flare wouldn't be bad.
I would add Ulfen and Taldan to the human ethnities, as both ethnities have Varisisa as one of their favored regions (and I think the non-ethnic Varisian was described as a Cheliaxian/Ulfen mix somewhere). The same would go for the Tian, but I see them as a little more exotic - still, maybe a good choice for a more exotic character.
Regarding the Taldans:
Taldor ruled over much of the inner sea region, once, including Cheliax. The population of Cheliax probably includes a fair number of ethnic 'Taldans', so does the 'Cheliaxian' population of Varisia. Remeber: the different human 'races' represent ethnicities, not nationalities.
I decided to included all three as they all have Varisia as a favored region. I figure however it must be a little hard for both Tains and Taldan to get into Varisia "easily," so I made a concession about Outlanders similar to what darkwarriorkarg suggested. I'm hoping to have the players call Varisia home in one place or another, but a bit of an exotic flare wouldn't be bad.
I would add Ulfen and Taldan to the human ethnities, as both ethnities have Varisisa as one of their favored regions (and I think the non-ethnic Varisian was described as a Cheliaxian/Ulfen mix somewhere). The same would go for the Tian, but I see them as a little more exotic - still, maybe a good choice for a more exotic character.Regarding the Taldans:
Taldor ruled over much of the inner sea region, once, including Cheliax. The population of Cheliax probably includes a fair number of ethnic 'Taldans', so does the 'Cheliaxian' population of Varisia. Remeber: the different human 'races' represent ethnicities, not nationalities.
Good point, thanks for the reminder.