CTO, Goblinworks
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We don't want bots, and we'll do what we can to avoid them. Very sophisticated bots can be hard to detect though, and they've been getting more and more advanced.
Our first strategy will making the game systems interesting/complicated enough that it isn't very easy to bot. This should cut down on the number of simple bots to deal with. After that, we'll work on detecting them wherever we can. It will probably always be a battle though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd really rather not see the game limit how much time I can spend online. I'm an adult, if I get a long weekend and want to have a gaming marathon, let me. It is not the job of the game, or of Goblinworks to monitor my health.
I think longer online times can be monitored with unobtrusive pop-ups that confirm you are a human, like those captcha things or "which animal is this a picture of?" If the pop-up is not answered, the account is auto-logged off and the very first thing that pops up when you re-log-in with that account, 15 minutes after that log-in is another one. That way, the owner of the bot will have to at least spend some time dealing with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd really rather not see the game limit how much time I can spend online. I'm an adult, if I get a long weekend and want to have a gaming marathon, let me. It is not the job of the game, or of Goblinworks to monitor my health.I think longer online times can be monitored with unobtrusive pop-ups that confirm you are a human, like those captcha things or "which animal is this a picture of?" If the pop-up is not answered, the account is auto-logged off and the very first thing that pops up when you re-log-in with that account, 15 minutes after that log-in is another one. That way, the owner of the bot will have to at least spend some time dealing with it.
I also agree id rather the game not limit my time online, I work heavily for 5 days and tend to game heavily for 2. Also I welcome bots, They will feel the sweet sweet sting of my arrow, or my partners blade in their guts
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd really rather not see the game limit how much time I can spend online. I'm an adult, if I get a long weekend and want to have a gaming marathon, let me. It is not the job of the game, or of Goblinworks to monitor my health.I think longer online times can be monitored with unobtrusive pop-ups that confirm you are a human, like those captcha things or "which animal is this a picture of?" If the pop-up is not answered, the account is auto-logged off and the very first thing that pops up when you re-log-in with that account, 15 minutes after that log-in is another one. That way, the owner of the bot will have to at least spend some time dealing with it.
Yeah, I'd rather not have it pop up every fifteen minutes asking me "Are you sure you're a human?" That sounds like a good way to get me killed in a fight.
It sounds like Mark's got the right idea. Deal with the bots as best you can, but accept that you won't get them all, and don't ruin the player experience trying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If/when you detect them, don't kick or ban them, put recurring bounties on their head. Bots die, profit is to be made, everyone wins.
This would be a good idea. A bonus to everyone who reports / takes actions against someone who is later discovered to be a bot by GMs.
My other input would be make it hard to effectively bot on a new/unpaid account. If one trial account harvests 1/10th-1/20th what someone who has owned the game few weeks does because effective harvesting requires a subscription and training then it will be hard for bots to become effective resource farmers.
Add authentication keys so they can't hack accounts and your problem is pretty-much solved. I think part of the purchase cost of this game should be an authentication key that you must activate within a month of game purchase.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If/when you detect them, don't kick or ban them, put recurring bounties on their head. Bots die, profit is to be made, everyone wins.This would be a good idea. A bonus to everyone who reports / takes actions against someone who is later discovered to be a bot by GMs.
My other input would be make it hard to effectively bot on a new/unpaid account. If one trial account harvests 1/10th-1/20th what someone who has owned the game few weeks does because effective harvesting requires a subscription and training then it will be hard for bots to become effective resource farmers.
Add authentication keys so they can't hack accounts and your problem is pretty-much solved. I think part of the purchase cost of this game should be an authentication key that you must activate within a month of game purchase.
Seems like they have it in mind already (I Heard It through the Grapevine blog post)
Right off the bat, we're hearing a lot of reports that GuildWars 2 players are having their accounts hacked. It is unlikely this is due to poor security on ArenaNet's part; it seems a near certainty that these folks have had their usernames and passwords exposed by keyloggers covertly installed on their computers, probably while buying gold for another MMO from a third-party vendor at some point in the past. Many (most?) players use the same username and password on all their MMO accounts, so once a bad guy has information from any one game, that user's accounts on all other games are potentially compromised.
One solution to this problem is the use of authenticators. An authenticator generates a randomized code that must be input to log into an account along with a password. Without the authenticator code, the account is inaccessible. (In security circles this is called "two-factor security.") The first generation of this technology was a little gizmo that consisted of an LCD screen and a button. Push the button, and the gizmo displays the generated code on the LCD.
Blizzard has been offering these for a while as an add-on to account security. But one downside is that always need your little gizmo when you want to play—if you leave it at a friend's house, you can't log in. And the gizmos aren't free; either the publisher pays for it or you do, but someone has to pay.
Better news is that there's a whole new level of tech coming out now for doing authenticator-style security over your cell phone. Blizzard itself has produced an authenticator app for the iPhone so that you can stop using the gizmo and just use your iPhone instead. There are a couple of other techniques available, too, such as having an email sent to a predefined address, or having an SMS text message sent to a predefined mobile device. Google offers their own authenticator service for Android, iOS and Blackberry; if we decide not to make our own, we could leverage Google's technology. Either way, the cost should be close to zero.
Since we expect authenticators to be in widespread use by our launch, and since most people playing a game online have access to a place to receive an authenticator token, we think that two-factor security is a good way to quickly and easily solve a lot of account security concerns. Therefore, our current plan is to require authenticator use for every Pathfinder Online account from the day we launch the game.
I'm just hoping that the listed methods aren't the only options. Would be neat to have options for email-based, or calling. (Although on rereading and a "spelling error," I noticed SMS text message was there, and I'm good... Until my phone dies.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO seems already more resistant to botting than all MMOs that I know.
The fact that you don't do the chores yourself but instead let NPCs do it means that you are effectively already "botting".
For example if you want to mine you need to setup a mining camp and the mining will be done by bots. You need to defend the camp, which can be quite hard for a real bot to do.
The only bots that are likely still be useful are the market bots (automatic buying and selling).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The bounty system should include some sort of human sensing mechanic, think captcha or maybe something with the same sort of effect. That way, people can kill bots without hesitating and they won't get a bounty placed on them. Of course, the person could come back and manually do it.
Things like botting will typically get you a reputation in the game. Since this is such a social game, being ostracized will severely inhibit your ability to play. Perhaps a BOTTER flag could be placed on someone allowing them to be killed and looted without penalty. Of course, only a GM would be able to place this flag manually, otherwise there would be mistakes that would be unfortunate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Deleting accounts may not be reversible, whereas flags can be removed easily. I am 100% for solid and harsh crackdown on bots, but I'm against innocent people having their accounts deleted without warning. For example, if you get into combat and turn on auto attack and run to the bathroom and a GM happens to stop by and ask you if you're a bot and you don't respond, it would be bad if you came back to find your account deleted. If there's no auto attack, think of harvesting a node and that taking time. Or not anything in particular, but if it looks like you're doing something and just before the GM asks you a question you go AFK for whatever reason, it could lead to a misunderstanding. Add to that some people not speaking English very well or possibly being too young to understand that they should respond to a GM, or even someone who is drunk or otherwise under the influence of something and you open up lots of room for unfortunate account deletions to occur. At that point it would become more of a chore for GMs to verify bots because they would have to be 110% sure it was a bot and not something else. If it's something simple as a flag then if there's a mistake it's a simple thing to correct it. Maybe start with a flag and continue monitoring for possible account deletion later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We had one guy that was notorious for not paying attention. He was sitting on the couch near the table where we were playing and the DM says, "Theo, you're hit for 9 damage. How many hit points do you have left?" to which the response was to come over to the table, do some calculations and then declare in surprise, "I'm at negative 35. I think I'm dead." The problem was that in addition to not paying attention, he was in the habit of adding up the damage he took rather than subtracting it from his total. At some point he got lazy and just started writing down the damage without adding as he went, and it all fell apart.
Theo is in our current group and he's much better about paying attention, though he does sometimes fall asleep when the sessions get to 1am or later. We all love him and often make light of the night mentioned above. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The main cause of botting boils down to the simple fact that time is money. People either bot so that they can enjoy their actual play time, or they bot so that they can sell their gains to other people who want to spend their limited game time doing other things...
So the main reason for botting is boring and repetitive gameplay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the easiest way to deal with bots is simply cornering the market on sold goods. Allow players to buy X amount of gold/goods per week/month with real money from Goblin Works. Keep the price low enough that there isn't really a profit in it for 3rd parties, and ban accounts that buy from 3rd parties.The reason for the weekly/monthly limitation is to help keep the economy more stable.
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Perhaps I misunderstand you. You wish to completely eliminate economics from the game? No sales of crafted goods by players, since GW sells everything and then only for cash, and bans anyone else selling anything in the game?
Surely I have misinterpreted your intent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just playing Devil's Advocate...
Why is it bad to have a bot that follows you around and heals you, but okay to make your kid do it?
Answers that appeal to tautology (that is, saying a kid is better than a bot because a kid is better than a bot) don't count.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps...when it is not possible to eliminate something considered negative, it seems logical to design the system so it is no longer a negative. Maybe we should be asking what actions a PC could do while "unattended" and how those actions can be made to benefit the PC and the community/game as a whole; without of course removing the incentive to actually play the game.
Just simplify things by institutionalizing botting in a way that benefits the game...and maybe even creating tools for setting AI behaviours for your "unattended" characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe we should be asking what actions a PC could do while "unattended" and how those actions can be made to benefit the PC and the community/game as a whole...
This is one of the things at the root of my old request to keep PCs in the game world at all times, even when the player is logged off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe we should be asking what actions a PC could do while "unattended" and how those actions can be made to benefit the PC and the community/game as a whole...This is one of the things at the root of my old request to keep PCs in the game world at all times, even when the player is logged off.
That is exactly what I had in mind when I made the past. An idea that I think was already poo-pooed, but does not mean we cannot think of new ideas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe we should be asking what actions a PC could do while "unattended" and how those actions can be made to benefit the PC and the community/game as a whole...This is one of the things at the root of my old request to keep PCs in the game world at all times, even when the player is logged off.
Interesting idea. We could provide scripts by triggering a macro record button, perform the action then macro off. Name the script. Then do something else and record the script. Key to specific times and our character goes to the Inn for a meal and then at dusk goes to his room (ala EQ2: thousands of rooms has this Inn)to sleep the game night through.
String them together for your default logged out routine.
If your avatar is attacked, trigger a recorded defensive script.
Interesting way to keep an empty world populated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting indeed, but hardly possible. This game will have thousands upon thousands of characters as time goes by, many of them no longer played regularily (by being alts).
Providing precious resources to thes unplayed characters seems wasteful for the benefit this would provide.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just playing Devil's Advocate...
Why is it bad to have a bot that follows you around and heals you, but okay to make your kid do it?
Answers that appeal to tautology (that is, saying a kid is better than a bot because a kid is better than a bot) don't count.
One of those has a chance of meaningfull human interaction, the other doesn't.. and if you have a kid/wife willing to do this kind of stuff, good for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of those has a chance of meaningfull human interaction, the other doesn't...That's actually a very good response. So, how about a kid that doesn't interact with anyone - except a GM when absolutely necessary?
To me, this is just as bad as a bot, though in a different way. Both of them are having a detrimental effect on human-game interaction. Although in the case of your latest example Nihimon, I think the qualitative difference is that it's this poor kid who either doesn't know how to, or doesn't want to interact and is being made to who's being cheated, at least as much as you could say that other players are cheated by bots.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The differences are that a kid is a kid, a human being, and not a bot.
The value of a human is not only in their interaction but in who they are, what they experience and remember, and how they will express themselves and interact in the future. A child, so long as their participation is legal and not forbidden, is an asset now and into the future.
Some of my best moments in gaming have been with my kids online.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To expand on what Being mentioned when he said "interact in the future," I think a big difference is that a kid is processing and learning as he plays, whether it's a task nobody wants to do or not. This game is planned to run for 10+ years and maybe 15+ (EVE is already at the 10+ mark), so that kid will grow up and if he's still playing he'll be able to draw upon those experiences gained when he was "just as bad as a bot." A bot will never be able to do that, so I would have absolutely no problem with someone having their kid harvest or whatever for them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The differences are that a kid is a kid, a human being, and not a bot.
The value of a human is not only in their interaction but in who they are, what they experience and remember, and how they will express themselves and interact in the future. A child, so long as their participation is legal and not forbidden, is an asset now and into the future.
Some of my best moments in gaming have been with my kids online.
Interesting, so other than the kid is a kid tautology, sounds like you would support bots that you cannot tell are bots. Would you support the legality of "Turing certified bots"? Oh...But, then what about the population of human players that could not pass the Turing test?
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of those has a chance of meaningfull human interaction, the other doesn't...That's actually a very good response. So, how about a kid that doesn't interact with anyone - except a GM when absolutely necessary?
Seems like a pretty silent player to me. Maybe he has fun getting stuff done or doesn't want to RP with others for various reasons. Maybe he is just shy...
Of course, that doesn't mean, that this player doesn't enjoy the game.I once talked to a WOW player, and he told me that his wife actually enjoys flying arround and collecting herbs for him. To be honest, back when I played way to much (raiding 6 days per week, daily quests, heroics ... about 70 hours each week) that sounded pretty sweet. And of course I sometimes heard of truly demented individuals who actually enjoyed to fish in WOW....
To make our moral problem somewhat more tricky, what if the person your employ/abuse isn't a relative or the kid next door, what if you actually emply someone in, lets say china, to play for you? How is that better than a bot? The interaction will be limited, I once "talked" to one of them ingame.... but I could not read the curly asian writing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bots are scripted and can do whatever they're scripted to do 24x7 without taking a breather. This leads to market imbalances or unfair advantages in some other way.
They can also have 'perfect' combat sense (if scripted as such) which makes then much harder to PK or easier to get PKed by them. That is, they do not make mistakes, use skill synergies perfectly or throw up defenses to skills aimed at them without error and instantly.
Kids on the other hand are dumb* and don't do these things anywhere near as well.
*I'm a parent. I'm allowed to call kids dumb.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bots are scripted and can do whatever they're scripted to do 24x7 without taking a breather. This leads to market imbalances or unfair advantages in some other way.
They can also have 'perfect' combat sense (if scripted as such) which makes then much harder to PK or easier to get PKed by them. That is, they do not make mistakes, use skill synergies perfectly or throw up defenses to skills aimed at them without error and instantly.
Kids on the other hand are dumb* and don't do these things anywhere near as well.
*I'm a parent. I'm allowed to call kids dumb.
You have no idea. I've met kids that can do killer combos and have extremely good reflexes. It's generally true, but there ARE some out there that can embarrass adults.