What actions can you take while using whirlwind attack?


Rules Questions


I have been playing around with a reach weapon wielding fighter/cleric with the growth domain and whirlwind attack and found myself wondering if a can hit everyone with the normal 10' reach then swift action enlarge to get those at 15-20?

On a related note can you use quickdraw to hit everyone withing 5' of you then swop to a reach weapon as a free action to continue the attack? (I'm thinking no on this one as you are attacking with a new weapon not continuing a single attack.)

Liberty's Edge

Even with Quickdrawing a new weapon being a free action, if it comes after you've already finished your full-round whirlwind, you've already started and finished that whirlwind attack so you can't re-start it again simply because you now have a new weapon in hand.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As far as I know, you can't do anything that requires an action in the middle of another action.

You can whirlwind attack with a reach weapon and spiked armor or some other weapon that doesn't require hands.

You should be able to use things like Cleaving Finish that don't require any kind of action.

Liberty's Edge

Gjorbjond wrote:

As far as I know, you can't do anything that requires an action in the middle of another action.

You can whirlwind attack with a reach weapon and spiked armor or some other weapon that doesn't require hands.

You should be able to use things like Cleaving Finish that don't require any kind of action.

Gjorbjond: You can't use that feat with whirlwind.

Besides the 5' step action, usable at the start, middle, or end of the whirlwind, I can't think of another action you could do.


If you want to hit at reach and up close in a whirlwind, take a level dip of Monk (martial artist archetype or idyllkin aasimar if you need to be non lawful), and then you can hit reach with the weapon, and at 5ft with unarmed attacks (monk's robe if you're doing this, to up your unarmed damage).


mdt wrote:
If you want to hit at reach and up close in a whirlwind, take a level dip of Monk (martial artist archetype or idyllkin aasimar if you need to be non lawful), and then you can hit reach with the weapon, and at 5ft with unarmed attacks (monk's robe if you're doing this, to up your unarmed damage).

it is easier to just buy armor spikes.


I'm fairly certain my (and most other) gms would at the very least make you suffer two weapon fighting penalties for either the unarmed strike or armor spikes trick and -4 to hit seems a little harsh to me so i think i'll stick to a scary 2 hander and just use the enlarge swift action to AoE in a 10' radius (with a 5'step to add a few more targets).


Use a whip, enlarge person, and lunge to whirlwind attack out to 35'. Alternatively, use Combat Patrol to set up a 35' threaten radius with a 30' reach.


It's been stated repeatedly that if you're wielding two weapons, you can switch which one you're using with no penalty; the only time you incur the TWF penalties is if you're attempting to get an extra attack that way.

Also, free actions may be taken at any time during your turn, including during other actions.

Combat: Free Actions wrote:
You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.


After reading whirlwind I would rule none, not even a 5-foot step. While you can take free actions during other actions, and while you can take a 5-foot step between attacks, the whirlwind attack is only 1 attack.

Quote:
you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

It clearly states that they must be within reach. And as it is only one attack, I would not let you change weapons. While the dice is rolled many times, it is still only one attack.

The only other thing that I would allow you to do during 1 single attack is talk. You could take the 5-foot step before, after or in-between attacks, but that won't work here as there is only one attack.

Dark Archive

Oladon wrote:

It's been stated repeatedly that if you're wielding two weapons, you can switch which one you're using with no penalty; the only time you incur the TWF penalties is if you're attempting to get an extra attack that way.

Just to back you on this. here is the FAQ:

Quote:

Multiple Weapons, Iterative Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting (page 202): If I have iterative attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?

Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack. As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."

—Sean K Reynolds, 11/04/11


Quickdrawing a weapon in the middle of normal attacks would work, but not the whirlwind attack, as I stated above.


Thanks, Happler; I went looking but couldn't find it in a reasonable amount of time.

Komoda: You're misreading the skill. It's not one attack. It clearly says: "make one melee attack... against each opponent within reach."

That's however many attacks there are opponents... and they're within reach as soon as you draw your different-reach weapon.


Whirlwind Attack wrote:
You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.

Funny, I've never heard of a "single attack" that requires multiple attack rolls...


I hate English. So many things can mean two things.

I hate you more than anyone else.

Could mean:
No one hates you more than I do

or

I don't hate anyone more than I hate you.

You are probably right with your reading. I also thought it was strange but didn't catch as to why.

Dark Archive

It also does not state that it takes a "full-round action" (like Spring attack), but when you use the "full attack action". So we follow the rules for a full attack action unless specified otherwise by the feat.

Full Attack Action:
Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.

Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for until the start your next turn.

There are the rules for a Full-attack action.

  • Since there is no penalty with a Whirlwind attack, you can choose to move after the first attack hit (as per normal full-attack action rules) making it a standard action and move action (and giving up the rest of your attacks).

  • You can do a whirlwind attack while fighting defensively (since nothing says that you cannot).

  • The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

    There is nothing in the Whirlwind feat that changes any of the above.

    In fact, nothing states that you must attack all opponents in order clockwise or counter-clockwise. You could attack the one in front of you, the one behind you, and then the rest if you wished.


  • This is how i determine the TWF rules apply for armor spikes or unarmed strike to hit adjacent targets with whirlwind attack

    Are you using a second weapon?

    Yes my unarmed strike or armor spikes is a second weapon.

    Is it allowing attacks you normally would not get?

    Yes as i normally cannot attack adjacent targets with a reach weapon.

    Then you are Two Weapon fighting enjoy the -4 to hit.


    Bertious, that's wrong. It's not giving you "extra attacks".

    Dark Archive

    Bertious wrote:

    This is how i determine the TWF rules apply for armor spikes or unarmed strike to hit adjacent targets with whirlwind attack

    Are you using a second weapon?

    Yes my unarmed strike or armor spikes is a second weapon.

    Is it allowing attacks you normally would not get?

    Yes as i normally cannot attack adjacent targets with a reach weapon.

    Then you are Two Weapon fighting enjoy the -4 to hit.

    But they are not extra attacks past what your normal BaB will allow.

    This also makes it so that you cannot throw more then 2 daggers per round, no matter what your BaB, even with quick draw. As you cannot normally attack people at range with no weapon in hand.

    You are good to do as you wish, but realize that your ruling in this case is a house rule.


    I'm not trying to say thats RAW but i think most of those i play with would logic it out that way. Basicly if you have to use a second weapon to get the extra targets with whirlwind attack then it would suffer for the use of two weapons.

    As to the throwing daggers you need quickdraw to throw more than 2 and only need 1 hand for it you can also throw off hand daggers but the TWF rules fully apply then according to the twf rules that is.


    This is a forum about the official rules, not what makes sense to each person.


    you can always go down the tiger style feat chain and get tiger pounce,Benefit: While using the Tiger Style feat, you can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack rolls. Additionally, once per round as a swift action, you can move up to half your speed closer to a target you hit with an unarmed strike or made a successful combat maneuver against on this turn or your last turn.
    so now u can move around a bit.


    No, you can't take a swift action in the middle of a full attack.


    TBH the first line of TWF does not mention BaB it says

    TWF rules wrote:

    Two-Weapon Fighting

    If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

    If you look at that and consider my earlier questions i think the second weapon and extra attack certainly apply as you are getting extra whirlwind attacks due to a second weapon.

    Now if that is the case, and it certainly is, then surely the rest of the twf rules also apply.


    Bertious: Did you read the FAQ quoted above, written by Sean Reynolds? You aren't getting "extra attacks" in this case; if you're allowed 3 attacks, and you're holding two weapons, you can attack three people with any combination of those weapons. There are no penalties, and there's absolutely no dependence on reach.


    i know u cant make a swift action while attacking, what i meant is that it lets u move more then a 5 ft step before or after your whirlwind, just in case they try moving away, u can follow and still make whirlwind attacks


    How are attacks into areas you normally cannot attack not extra attacks? I don't want to seem overly argumentative but as i am the more liberally minded about the rules in my group i'll need a very strong arguement if i try and use these tactics.


    A fighter is holding a short sword in one hand and a long sword in the other. He can make three attacks per full attack, and they can be made with either weapon. Neither weapon is his "off-hand" or "main-hand", as he's not two-weapon fighting. He's just fighting. He can attack anyone within reach of either weapon.

    Now the fighter is holding a dorn-dergar in one hand and a long sword in the other. He can make three attacks per full attack, and they can be made with either weapon. Neither weapon is his "off-hand" or "main-hand", as he's not two-weapon fighting. He's just fighting. He can attack anyone within reach of either weapon.

    There is NO difference.


    That makes sense to me thanks Oladon. Sadly the damage inside the 10' zone will be alot less than the 15-20 foot zone but it's better than no damage.

    As to Michael thats a neat trick but would not work for my build as my swift actions are used to enlarge.


    With Whirlwind Attack, you're trading out your normal iterative attacks for a single attack against each foe within reach. So, regardless of how many iterative attacks you normally get, when you use Whirlwind Attack surrounded by, for example, 5 enemies, your normal number of attacks becomes either 1 spread over the 5 targets or 5 with each target getting 1 attack (depending on how you parse the language in the feat description). So, if you normally have 3 iteratives and you trade it out for a whirlwind against 5 enemies, it still isn't considered "extra attacks" because however many attacks Whirlwind gives you becomes your normal number. That having been said, TWF only permits you to make one extra attack with your off-hand weapon against a single target by default; Whirlwind does not change this. So I'd say the most reasonable interpretation is that, when using Whirlwind against 5 foes, you roll an attack against each of them and, in addition, can make single strikes with your off-hand using TWF. Presuming you have 3 off-hand strikes and are wielding a 1-h + light combo, you'd do 1 roll against each of 5 target at -2 and up to 3 rolls at -2, -7, and -14 to apply as you see fit. Or, to put it simply, only your main-hand attack benefits from Whirlwind, at the expense of your iteratives. Off-hand attacks do not Whirlwind and are still only used against individual targets normally.

    Silver Crusade

    Whirlwind Attack wrote:
    When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

    So, no TWF extra attack allowed when using Whirlwind Attack.

    Free Action wrote:
    You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.
    Swift Actions wrote:
    You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

    Yes, you can take a swift action in the middle of a full attack.


    With whirlwind attack, could you replace your attacks with trip attempts?


    Yup.


    PokeyCA wrote:
    Yup.

    Cool thanks

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

    Here is what my character, Grog, did.

    Wielding a Scyth, Power Attack, Lunge, Whirlwind.

    He also had Step Up and Strike after reaching 10th level.

    Keep in mind, Lunge gives you reach only when your attacking, once your turn is done you no longer have reach. The advantage is that you still have the adjacent squares as well as the 10' reach. (and Grog had a X4 weapon that he could up to X5 once a day)

    I was searching crits.


    Whirlwind attack: "make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach."

    You have to determine which foes are within your reach (and thus which ones you get to make an attack against) when you decide to use this feat. It isn't 'make an attack against anyone you can get within during during this round.'

    Basically, there is one moment for determining the valid targets. What happens during the whirlwind attack sequence might reduce the valid targets, but it won't add to them.


    Since there is a feat/ability that lets you take a 5ft step and continue to use whirlwind against targets that were not originally in reach, then normally you cannot do so.

    When you declare that you are starting a whirlwind attack, you set the total targets.

    You may make one attack against each target you threaten at that time.

    If you want to argue that you threaten with both IUS/Armor Spikes/etc. at 5' and your reach weapon at 10', I would allow it, because they are within reach.

    Also, technically, the TWF rules do not apply to this situation, as you are not TWF (which is it's own full round action, the Full-Attack Action, different from the full round action Whirlwind Attack).

    I would even let you 5ft step if you can an attack the people who were adjacent to you to start with using your reach weapon, since per the rules, "You can take a 5ft step anytime during your turn, even between attacks."

    That is the rules version, and since I primarily play PFS, I have to use that.

    I think personally though, that they never thought up a corner case like this when writing/describing the Whirlwind attack feat, and it was only ever considered by the designers to be one attack with one weapon against all the enemies that you threatened with that one weapon.


    Wow, there's a lot of assumptions and misinformation in this thread.

    1) You can take 5' steps, free, and swift actions in the middle of other actions.

    2) When using Whirlwind Attack, you give up your regular attacks (including bonus attacks from other sources, including TWF).
    However, this should only apply to attacks you could make as part of a full-attack action.
    If you can perform an additional attack as a swift action, for example, it should be unaffected.

    3) Whirlwind Attack is not a single attack: "...one melee attack...against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent." It says one attack against EACH opponent, not one attack total. BIG difference there.

    ----------------

    Okay, now for what is unclear:

    When is it determined whether a creature is within the Whirlwind Attackers' reach, and thus will receive an attack?

    Franky, the answer to this question is: it's not clear. Thus, expect table variation.


    Byakko, Cleave is similarly worded regarding who you can attack.

    The Cleave FAQ states you cannot take a 5' step and recheck who you can attack.

    Based on that you should not also be able to re-check who you can threaten after you start your whirlwind attack. It is checked once, at the beginning.

    CRB p119 Cleave wrote:
    As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach.
    CRB p137 Whirlwind Attack wrote:
    When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.


    Gauss wrote:

    Byakko, Cleave is similarly worded regarding who you can attack.

    The Cleave FAQ states you cannot take a 5' step and recheck who you can attack.

    Based on that you should not also be able to re-check who you can threaten after you start your whirlwind attack. It is checked once, at the beginning.

    CRB p119 Cleave wrote:
    As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach.
    CRB p137 Whirlwind Attack wrote:
    When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

    Interesting, nice find!

    I believe you are right and the Cleave FAQ is a reasonable precedent.

    However, this doesn't necessarily preclude being able to take 5' steps entirely (to reposition to reduce cover, to bring a reach weapon to bear, etc), but it does clarify that the valid targets are not rechecked after the attack is begun.

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