Long time thread reader here. First time post. Next Sunday my group will be starting a kingmaker game. My problem is I am torn as to what character I want to make. We regularly have 3 PCs. One is halforc inquisitor. The other will be a halforc druid. I was tempted to make many things but can't make up my mind as I usually gm. We are using all pathfinder and 25 point buy any suggestions. I kinda want to make a king but I like to shine in combat so I am iffy about bard. Paladin sounds good but I don't do lawful good well. And with cavalier I don't want to be stuck with mount. Any suggestions or ideas would be awesome. Especially if my gm says wtf are you playing.
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Halforc Oracle? Call him Halfor Acle.
Kingmaker is a GREAT AP for a mount. I would suggest a Ranger or a Cavalier.
But you guys don't have any arcane casting... So, a magus could work here too.
The other option is Rogue, plenty of flanky sneak attack fun!
well IF you were going for oracle, Half orc rage prophet... you guys could be the three stooges of kingmaker.... not to mention the rage prophet would kick tookis!
Not very familiar with Oracle any suggestions? Half orc would be humorous for whole party.
Half Orc heavens oracle with 19 cha would be sick and broken for at a minimum the first 2 modules. From then on you would be amazing, but not outright 'I win'. Awesome display. Read that ability.
Perhaps I am being special but could you translate awesome display to me.
Illusion(pattern) spells typically "see this flashy light... get fascinated/stunned/etc ." But the usually have hd caps. Color spray is an example... works really well on up to 4 hd creatures. With awesome display, it would work on up to 4+ Your cha mod creatures. Pretty handy.
If you want cavalier, there are a couple of archetypes from ultimate combat that trade outpunt: musketeer and standard bearer
Awesome Display lets you subtract your Charisma modifier from the effective hit dice of creatures affected by certain illusion spells. The practical effect of this is that your Color Spray will KO stuff with up to 6-7HD (more later on). This is very powerful, but remember that you'll need to get within 15 feet.
Another option might be a Master Summoner (Charisma based caster) who brings in monsters to flank with the party. Later on he'd be able to call in a lot of monsters with cool spell-like abilities including Cure Serious Wounds and Lightning Bolt.
That's my big problem everything sounds so good. Awesome display does seem pretty disgusting.
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School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (red, yellow, and blue powder or colored sand)
Range 15 ft.
Area cone-shaped burst
Duration instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
A vivid cone of clashing colors springs forth from your hand, causing creatures to become stunned, perhaps also blinded, and possibly knocking them unconscious. Each creature within the cone is affected according to its HD.
2 HD or less: The creature is unconscious, blinded, and stunned for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, and then stunned for 1 round. (Only living creatures are knocked unconscious.)
3 or 4 HD: The creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round.
5 or more HD: The creature is stunned for 1 round.
Sightless creatures are not affected by color spray. Source.
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Pretend you made something like this:
10 Str 10 Dex 14 Con 8 Int 10 Wis 20 Cha.
(No this is NOT an optimal array for anything EXCEPT a heavens Oracle. Cha is KING, see awesome Display.
At level 1, no Color Spray. It is a bonus spell, gained at level 2. Oh well. Focus on healing and being an all around moderately helpful character.
At level 2, you now have color spray! Yay!
You are attacked by one of the MANY trolls in the Greenbelt! Oh Noes!
TROLL:
AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 14; (+2 Dex, +5 natural, –1 size)
hp 63 (6d8+36); regeneration 5 (acid or fire)
Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +3
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Lets see. The troll's HD is 6, minus your charisma mod of 5. . . = 1
For purposes of your Color Spray, the troll is considered a 1 HD creature. Re: Awesome Display.
DC is 10+5 (Cha Mod)+1 (First Level) = 16
Troll's will save, as above, is +3. . . so you have a 60% to land the spell. Lets see what happens! (Note, If you were a Gnome, you would have a 65% chance, but lets roll with the half orc. . .)
Oh Noes! The troll failed!
We determined the troll counted as a 1 HD creature for purposes of your Color Spray, so lets see what happens to the troll!
2 HD or less: The creature is unconscious, blinded, and stunned for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, and then stunned for 1 round. (Only living creatures are knocked unconscious.)
rounds of unconsious, blind and stunned troll
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
So, you have 6 rounds of Coup de Grace's raining in, the troll has an effective AC of 16 -2 (loses dex bonus) -2 (Blind) -5 helplesse (dex goes to 0) = 8 AC, and you have +4 to hit... if you are not taking the free auto crit, auto confirm coup de grace. . .
Oh well, you didn't manage to kill him in 6 rounds for whatever reason. He is awake now!
Wait... That's ok. He is now Blind and Stunned for rounds while you make a leisurely escape, and then stunned for another round. No need to panic. Trolls are no big thing.
. . at level 2....
Now you are wondering: 'Looks awesome! But how does it scale?'
Well, I am glad you asked! At level 4, you should have amassed about 6,000 gp.
Buy a headband of charisma +2 for 4,000. and put your stat bump into Charisma as well.
Now you have effective Cha of 23 for -6 to the creatures HD. So anything with less than 8 HD ends up just like the troll above. Take Heightened Spell Meta Magic Feat at level 3.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
Now you can cast the Color Spray as a max level spell to increase the save DC as needed! Woot!
Level 7 and you should have over 20,000 gold, upgrade that headband!
Cha now 25, -7 to the HD
Level 8, Cha bump! Woot! Cha now 26, -8 to HD of monsters.
Sadly, from 8 on, you will see a diminishing returns on your Color Spray.
Oh well, good thing you are upgraded to the other wonderful pattern spells by then!
Huzzah Rainbow Pattern! (remember, it is -8 to the HD of EACH creature, not +8 to the HD the spell can handle...)
Pretend you get jumped by 10 level 10 barbarians. . . Rainbow Pattern!
Lets see... 100 HD of monsters, but we ignore 8 HD each or 80 HD total, yep. You can squeeze them all into one rainbow pattern. . .
Yeah, it scales just fine.
wow, I should prune that!
I second Half-Orc Rage Prophet.
EDIT: Arizhel, Spoilers are your friend.
Well WOW! Thanks for the readout. I sadly have not played many casters so they become a biti intimidating. What's cool about the rage prophet and do they combine well with heavens?
Arizhel, you didn't mention going Dual-Cursed, so if one of your targets rolls high on the save you can just make them reroll.
Why not Str9, Dex14, Con14, Int10, Wis8, Cha17+2 instead? I think that extra survivability might pay off better than that 1 point of Cha even though Cha is indeed king for this sort of gamebreaker. I'd call it a one-trick-pony, but every other spell known and feat can be used to create versatility to handle unsighted or illusion-immune enemies.
That said, the bonus feats from an Arcane Duelist bard certainly help them work in combat, and bards don't suck in a fight to start. Power attack, furious focus, and only moderate Cha needed if your spells are mostly buffage.
As said, Kingmaker is one of the only campaigns where a mounted cavalier can actually work.
I just cracked myself up thinking about other Cha classes and coming up with a Ninja or Mysterious Stranger for a king.
You lose your level 2 bonus spell if you go dual cursed, no more color spray! Nor worth it for the heavens build.
Gnome gets +1 to DC of Illusions.
Not really a one trick pony when you consider the heavens oracle is a full divine caster. Just has one AMAZING trick in addition to the full spontaneous divine casters elsewhere.
If you do Gnome, you can roll 8 str 14 dex 14 con 8 int 8 wis 20 cha for a DC of 17 on the Color Spray.
Take Spell Focus (Illusion) to bump the DC to 18. . .
Ahh, my bad, sorry.
I always make fun of gnomes to. What are some good curses for oracle? A gnome king seems funny to me and I'll be the little guy in the group.
Haunted is my favorite, the spell list is great.
Sounds totally cool. Earlier this evening the gm was talking the monsters up like we wouldn't have a chance on some rolls for random like the multiple troll one.
What are some other good illusion spells a gnome oracle has access to?
Haunted Spell List?
I like Lame personally...
it's character association, you like lame because you are.... oh well nevermind :)
it's character association, you like lame because you are.... oh well nevermind :)
Be glad I am not easily insulted. I actually have been told that if I injure my left knee again I will most likely be stuck on a Cane. Heck, Even if I don't apparently there is a chance by my 25th Birthday I will be on a Cane and then by 35 I will be in a wheel chair.
Clarification on above:
Pick one of the following languages: Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Ignan, Infernal, or Terran.
Whenever you are in combat, you can only speak and understand the selected language. This does not interfere with spellcasting, but it does apply to spells that are language dependent. You gain the selected language as a bonus language.
At 5th level, pick an additional language to speak in combat and add it to your list of known languages.
At 10th level, you can understand any spoken language, as if under the effects of tongues, even during combat.
At 15th level, you can speak and understand any language, but your speech is still restricted during combat.
So, it will not stop you from casting anything, but when you issue the command using the command spell, unless the target speaks celestial (for example) it will just stare at you looking all confused, and continue on as if you had done nothing.
Somehow an oracle of heavens babbling incomprehensibly in Celestial seems appropriate. . .
What are some other good illusion spells a gnome oracle has access to?
The bonus spells for the revelation!
color spray (2nd), hypnotic pattern (4th), daylight (6th), rainbow pattern (8th), overland flight (10th), chain lightning (12th), prismatic spray (14th), sunburst (16th), meteor swarm (18th)
Note: not all are illusion (overland flight, chain lightening, etc.
In addition, you get the classic divine caster illusion, Silence. There are a couple others, like Shadow Barbs, Visions of Hell, Symbol of Striking, Lunar Veil, and Visions of Lamashtu, but for the most part, the SoS ones are on the bonus spell list..
kingmaker, inquisitor & druid, 25 point buy, want to make a king, like to shine in combat
.
.Kingmaker is a fun adventure path. I'm currently playing it at 12th level, near the end of book #4. Compared to other adventures it has: short adventuring days, often just a single battle; downtime measured in months; perception rolls for exploration; outdoor adventuring, although there's an indoor setting here and there it's well under half of the time; creature types animal, fey, plant, and humanoid.
Inquisitor & Druid - Both are 3/4 BAB classes who are fairly good at melee, cast divine spells based on wisdom, and have Perception as a class skill. So, to round out the party and avoid stepping on toes, you might want to consider an arcane caster or full BAB class. (Rather than the oracle, who is also a 3/4 BAB divine caster.) Perception, tracking, and healing are covered; traps, social skills, and arcane magic are not.
25 point buy - You'll have plenty of points to make a very good version of any class you choose.
want to make a king - It takes two things to be king:
1) Consent of your fellow players
2) Probably a higher charisma score than your companions, or at least tied.
like to shine in combat - Any character with full BAB will shine in combat with these party members. Also, any full arcane caster will have plenty of meat-shields in front of him.
My top class suggestions:
- Magus
- Sorcerer
- Summoner
If you'd rather skip the spellcasting, a 14 charisma and a melee class with enough skill points to keep max ranks in diplomacy:
- Barbarian
- Ranger
- Cavalier
Master summoner... even though its lame, it just fits best. You are the rogue, the arcane caster, the trap finder, the melee brute, the battlefield controller, the spell-toolbox via summons and umd and you are king due to getting diplomacy with a trait.
Wasum has a nice suggestion.
Though if you want to be King:
Cavalier, Lore Warden(Fighter), or Tactician(Fighter). Best leaders I have found.
But a Sorcerer could be nice in your group.
Those are some interesting archetypes. I never looked at those before. I guess my problem is I like a lot of classes.
Your party needs someone focused on charisma. More then any other ap you really do need a face in kingmaker (in my opinion). You are founding a kingdom. You HAVE to deal effectively with npcs in a diplomatic fashion. Keep in mind this most likely means you are making a 'king' or baron or leader or what have you for your kingdom. Charisma and social skills are really important. I'd honestly say a bard built for combat as well as social skills (maybe arcane duelist) would be a good choice. Kingmaker doesnt have alot of traps, and between a bard, inquisitor and druid, you have most skills covered without the need for a 'rogue'.
Summoner might also be a good choice, because its also charisma based, and with a small party they eidolon provides a solid action economy boost (theoretically along side the druids animal companion to be the 'front liners' of the party).
I have contemplated perhaps a Drow bard. The gm of course does not want us to be evil. I do like the thought of typical Drow weapons and sleep style poison. I would need to come up with good back story for why I am good and found the charter and of course went to take care of it. Any possibility of this making sense or being a good idea?
An Elven woman underwent the transition to Drow while pregnant, and gave birth to a perfectly innocent Drow child.
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There are some albino drow.
Paladin and bard are also effective, high Cha PCs.
Try a build which marries a first level Dawnflower Dervish bard who multi-classes with paladin. With Dex determining attack and damage with the scimitar, high skills, arcane casting and great charisma, this could be ideal!
The exact mix of bard/paladin levels is up to you, so long as your first character level is as a bard. As a spontaneous caster it's easy for someone who isn't used to spellcasters to get your head round the few spells that they know. You may only ever have that single bard level if you want; the rest could be paladin if you want, or you could enter the Duelist PrC if you want!
If you like the Heavens Oracle but also want to take advantage of the chance to play a mounted PC in Kingmaker you might consider taking just 1 level of Oracle to get Misfortune and Awesome Display (via feat) and then switch over to Sorcerer to get Color Spray and an animal companion from the Sylvan variant of the Fey bloodline. Take the Boon Companion feat and you'll have a full power melee pet just like a Druid.
If you go bard/paladin I'd suggest taking 4 levels of paladin with the Oath of Vengeance so that you can convert Lay on Hands into Smite Evil. Warrior of the Holy Light is cool too since it grants some bonuses which stack with Inspire Courage. The Greater Mercy feat is nice since it increases the healing you get for LoH by +1d6.
I'd fear master summoner falling behind in a group like this - high point buy and small party size tends to overtly favor real front liners vs. summoned ones (and I speak from experience).
Well, he could just kill both his allies and run the AP alone if he feels like doing so - I dont think thats an issue:P
If you want a mount (which is good in kingmaker) nature Oracle gets a mount, too. While not every GM allows it some races can even get an oracle mount higher than their own level through favored class bonuses.
The nature oracle can get cha to AC instead of dex so less MAD than most classes.
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There are some albino drow.
Paladin and bard are also effective, high Cha PCs.
Try a build which marries a first level Dawnflower Dervish bard who multi-classes with paladin. With Dex determining attack and damage with the scimitar, high skills, arcane casting and great charisma, this could be ideal!
The exact mix of bard/paladin levels is up to you, so long as your first character level is as a bard. As a spontaneous caster it's easy for someone who isn't used to spellcasters to get your head round the few spells that they know. You may only ever have that single bard level if you want; the rest could be paladin if you want, or you could enter the Duelist PrC if you want!
A halfling can do bard/paladin really well; take the Fleet Of Foot alternate race ability that gives them a base move rate of 30-feet.
The paladin's bonded mount will shine in Kingmaker. Probably literally.
1/2 Orc Oracle of Battle
Favored Class Options
Oracle: Add one spell known from the oracle spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the oracle can cast.
With the Eldritch Heritage chain take the Ork Blood line
Bloodline Powers: You are heir to the bestial power of the great orc warlords of the past. You feel their rage in your blood, and must take care lest the urge to despoil and destroy consumes you.
Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Fearless (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain a +4 bonus on saving throws made against fear and a +1 natural armor bonus. At 9th level, you lose your light sensitivity, gain immunity to fear, and your natural armor bonus increases to +2.
Strength of the Beast (Ex): At 9th level, you gain a +2 inherent bonus to your Strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 13th level, and to +6 at 17th level.
Power of Giants (Sp): At 15th level, you may grow to Large size as a standard action. At this size you gain a +6 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You may return to your normal size as a standard action. You may remain in this size for up to 1 minute per character level per day; this duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.
Optimistic Gambler trait
You’ve always seemed to have trouble keeping money. Worse, you always seem to have debts looming over your head. When you heard about the “Cheat the Devil and Take His Gold” gambling tournament, you felt in your gut that your luck was about to change. You’ve always been optimistic, in fact, and even though right now is one of those rare times where you don’t owe anyone any money (you just paid off a recent loan from local moneylender Lymas Smeed), you know that’ll change soon enough. Better to start amassing money now when you’re at one of those rare windfall times! You’ve set aside a gold coin for the entrance fee, and look forward to making it big—you can feel it in your bones! This time’s gonna be the big one! Your boundless optimism, even in the face of crushing situations, has always bolstered your spirit.
Benefit Effects that grant you morale bonuses persist 1d4 rounds longer than they normally would as a result.
Spells Savage Maw
School transmutation; Level antipaladin 1, cleric 2, druid 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level (D), special (see below)
Your teeth extend and sharpen, transforming your mouth into a maw of razor-sharp fangs. You gain a bite attack that deals 1d4 points of damage plus your Strength modifier. If you confirm a critical hit with this attack, it also deals 1 point of bleed damage. If you already have a bite attack, your bite deals 2 points of bleed damage on a critical hit. You are considered proficient with this attack. If used as part of a full-attack action, the bite is considered a secondary attack, is made at your full base attack bonus –5, and adds half your Strength modifier to its damage.
You can end this spell before its normal duration by making a bestial roar as a swift action. When you do, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes within a 30-foot radius that can hear the roar.
Work with Inquistor and take teamwork feats
Leadership is must have in this AP
The idea of the oracle of battle looks pretty cool. What are some good teamwork feats? He did want to do like a dynamic duo. Also what book is the gambling trait in? I'll have to look closer into those abilities.
All team work feats see SRD
Lookout* — Act in surprise round if ally can act
Outflank* Base attack bonus +4 Gain +4 bonus on attack rolls when flanking
Paired Opportunists* — +4 bonus on attacks of opportunity
Precise Strike* Dex 13, base attack bonus +1 Deal +1d6 points of precision damage with melee attacks
Swap Places* — Switch places with an adjacent ally
Back to Back Perception 3 ranks Gain a +2 to AC against flanking opponents
Improved Back to Back Back to Back, Perception 5 ranks Grant adjacent ally +2 to AC against flanking opponents
Broken Wing Gambit* Bluff 5 ranks Grant opponent bonus to hit you, but opponent's attack provokes attacks of opportunity
Combat Medic Heal 5 ranks May take 10 and not provoke attacks of opportunity when using Heal
— You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving through spaces adjacent to allies
Feint Partner* Bluff 1 rank When ally successfully feints, opponent loses Dex bonus against your next attack
Improved Feint Partner* Combat Reflexes, Feint Partner, base attack bonus +6 When ally successfully feints, you gain attack of opportunity against opponent
Pack Attack base attack bonus +1 Ally's attack allows you to take a 5-foot step
Seize the Moment Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical When ally confirms a critical threat, you gain an attack of opportunity
Shake It Off — Gain +1 to all saving throws per adjacent ally
Stealth Synergy — Take the highest roll made by you and your allies on Stealth checks
Tandem Trip — When you make a trip against an opponent threatened by any ally, roll twice and take the higher result
Target of Opportunity Point-Blank Shot, base attack bonus +6 When an ally hits with a ranged attack, you may make an attack as an immediate action
Optimistic Gambler trait is from
Pathfinder Companion: Second Darkness Player's Guide.
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You may want to consider a race with either dark vision or low light vision more than other campaigns. We often slept with no light hoping not to attract anyone at night and i often had to piss away a standard action to get light of one form or another, sometimes provoking as I did such because without light, I could not tell I was already in the reach of the attacker. Same goes for standing up from sleeping. Same goes for light armor classes. I recently began book two and we have consistently been attacked at night. I end up in chain shirt pajammers instead of the heavy armor I am supposed to be wearing in a fight. Sleeping in light armor has no ill effect but sleeping in medium or heavy armor leaves you with fatigue the next day. Lesser Restoration can cure the Fatigue but it can be an expensive resource, especially for a low lever party. A wand made by a ranger/paladin as a 1st level spell is technically within the rules but you should always check with the DM that he is ok with it. I sometimes DM and say too many ranger/paladin wand/potion/scroll makers who sell on the open market are hunted down and killed(business is buiness)thus, finding their cheap versions are exceedingly rare. Even if your DM says it is ok, you need someone to activate it. My group has repeatedly been stood up by the player who is supposed to be our healer. If your Druid and Oracle are killed, will the players continue to play a class that could activate such gear?
OK here goes. I think I will try out the half orc oracle. I like the idea of the heritage feats making me more orc. I have talked with the gm for the upcoming game and will be taking the bastard trait as a comic "OMG, he slept with that."
I guess my question now is what order would be most appropriate for feats? Also any suggestions on how the group can shore up our weaknesses being all melee divine casters?
I think my stats will be Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 16 before racial which I contemplate putting to charisma for when we create kingdom. Any other pointers for this would also be welcome.
level/ Feat
1 Skill Focus Surival
3 Eldritch Heritage
Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier
5 Out Flank Team Work
7 leadership get raging 1/2 ork Barbarian Cohort
9 Vital Strike
11 Improved Eldritch Heritage
Strength of the Beast (Ex): At 11th level, you gain a +2 inherent bonus to your Strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 15th level, and to +6 at 19th level.
13 Improved Eldritch Heirage agian for other power
gain immunity to fear, and your natural armor bonus increases to +2.
15 Quicken Spell like abilty (Touch of Rage)
17 Greater Eldritch Heirage for
Power of Giants (Sp): At 15th level, you may grow to Large size as a standard action. At this size you gain a +6 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You may return to your normal size as a standard action. You may remain in this size for up to 1 minute per character level per day; this duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.
19 extra Revelation
At level 19 your stuff is as follows: STR 28 DEX 10 CON 18
Natural Armor +2 all with out Items or spells
Optimistic Gambler trait is key in this build note the norm is 2 traits to start with.
You’ve always seemed to have trouble keeping money. Worse, you always seem to have debts looming over your head. When you heard about the “Cheat the Devil and Take His Gold” gambling tournament, you felt in your gut that your luck was about to change. You’ve always been optimistic, in fact, and even though right now is one of those rare times where you don’t owe anyone any money (you just paid off a recent loan from local moneylender Lymas Smeed), you know that’ll change soon enough. Better to start amassing money now when you’re at one of those rare windfall times! You’ve set aside a gold coin for the entrance fee, and look forward to making it big—you can feel it in your bones! This time’s gonna be the big one! Your boundless optimism, even in the face of crushing situations, has always bolstered your spirit.
Benefit Effects that grant you morale bonuses persist 1d4 rounds longer than they normally would as a result.
Level 1 and 2 suck in this build but it just get better as you go.