Hi guys, just wanted to come on and ask how you do the optional Hero Point rule at your tables. If you don't use it that's fine, but I'd like contributions in the form of (in that case) how you would use it; not really looking for how many people do or don't.
-Do you use the rules as written or add in your own things?
It always felt a little strange to me that hero points had set uses in RAW. I always saw them as an abstract way of allowing the players to kind of tell me how the narrative would/should shift in that one moment to make the story more compelling. So far it's worked pretty well. I had a player use the "cheat death" option when he got nailed by a Slay Living, although I ruled that he was at zero and unconscious with secondary aesthetic things (his hair turned white). In that case it worked out. The opening shot of an evil cleric was intimidating, (un)lucky rolls still worked, and the player got to save himself from the task of making a new character at level 8 and rejoining a campaign in progress (which just sucks). But this brings me to my next question...
-Playing, have you seen any players abusing the system you have?
I haven't seen this so far, but it looks like something that could be exploited. "Guys, save your hero points for the boss and we'll just use them to finish it quicker." That's kind of my issue with a RAW instead of suggested RAI approach; you give written rules to a player and some will stretch them however they can to break it.
The reason I'm asking, mainly, is that I've been using the system for a while, and normally my players forget about it like a familiar until they get caught in a situation where it's really going to come in handy, which has worked so far. But now one of my players is making a character that's essentially based on luck or a heroic destiny, using the human racial feats from Advanced Race Guide and the Heroic racial trait on an Order of the Shield Cavalier with the Standard Bearer archetype. He's actually pretty cool, storywise
Basically, the player's idea is a character that does the craziest, riskiest thing he possibly can in any given situation and uses hero points and other luck feats to come out on top; barely. He wants to spend hero points to do crazy things to get hero points back. The thing is, the RAW for hero points states that you can't get a hero point from an action in which you had to use a hero point. So.
-Should I let this player (with an addendum to the Heroic racial trait) essentially use hero points to gain hero points?
It seems like there's a reason this was included in the RAW, but I also feel like this player would play the character pretty well given this opportunity. He's one of those that doesn't care if his guy lives or dies, so long as he gets to do something sweet. If I let him, he might take over and rush in and be a party-cohesion menace--he might not--and if he has ready access to hero points at all times this could be exacerbated. On the other hand he could play it cool and just do it when it's going to yield the most epicness.
What do you guys think? And thanks for reading the wall of text!
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As a GM, the Hero Point system is my favorite mechanic in Pathfinder! I absolutely love it, and always implement it into my games. I pretty much use the rules as written, except:
* I don't normally allow the feats/spells/magic items that grant extra Hero Points. That stuff deflates the value and significance of Hero Points! They aren't meant to be flung around willy nilly... in my opinion, they work best when used sort of as a "get out of jail free card".
* I omit the "Bonus" and "Reroll" rules of the Using Hero Points section and simply rule that you can use a Hero Point to take 10 on ANY d20 roll with the added +8 luck bonus. I do this because Hero Points are meant to be exciting and to give the player an edge! How deflating would it be to use a Hero Point only to roll a 1? To me this significantly cuts the intended value of Hero Points. With my change using them is always guaranteed to help, just like all the other listed uses.
* I rule that if a character uses 2 to Cheat Death, they automatically have 0 HP and stabilize, regardless of how deep they currently are in the negatives (as long as their corpse is mainly intact)
* I broaden the spectrum a bit by ruling an "allow" or "disallow" use of Hero Points on a case-by-case basis. For example, my players have asked before if they could spend a Hero Point to move without provoking an attack of opportunity from the big bad boss, and I allow it.
I don't mind my players having the extra Ace up their sleeve because I tend to make challenging encounters anyway. :) It's a fantastic way to add excitement and heroic moments to the game (and it generally makes your players happy). At the same time, since they're such a limited and precious resource, it adds an element of strategy by encouraging players to manage them carefully. The mechanic is GENIUS, especially the 3 point limit rule. It makes 4E's Action Point system look like the Hero Point system's younger, weaker, lazier brother.
I haven't seen this so far, but it looks like something that could be exploited. "Guys, save your hero points for the boss and we'll just use them to finish it quicker." That's kind of my issue with a RAW instead of suggested RAI approach; you give written rules to a player and some will stretch them however they can to break it.
The reason I'm asking, mainly, is that I've been using the system for a while, and normally my players forget about it like a familiar until they get caught in a situation where it's really going to come in handy, which has worked so far. But now one of my players is making a character that's essentially based on luck or a heroic destiny, using the human racial feats from Advanced Race Guide and the Heroic racial trait on an Order of the Shield Cavalier with the Standard Bearer archetype. He's actually pretty cool, storywise
As long as you make sure Hero Points are a very limited and hard-to-come-by resource like I do, I say that your example is fine! If the players want to coordinate and blow them all on the boss, I say go for it! They might regret it later, though, if they die and have no Hero Points to cheat death. :)
This is why I don't allow traits, feats, spells, etc. that have anything to do with Hero Points. It virtually eliminates potential abuse, it really amplifies the spirit of Hero Points being a precious/limited resource, and it encourages players to manage them carefully (like the coordinated boss attack example you mentioned!).
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I make a point to remind my players of their Hero Points! Their faces usually brighten or they at least smirk when I teasingly bring it up. "Remember, you can use a Hero Point to get another standard action if you want!" or "You know, you could use a Hero Point for basically a guaranteed hit if you're really intimidated by this thing's AC." You can just see their wheels turning, considering that meat dangling before them, as they silently thank my reminder with a smile. =)
I love hero points too! I think they are an awesome tool for rewarding characters.
Something I do with HeroPoints is using them as "Limit Breakers". As a reward I usually let the PCs learn powerful techniques or get powerful items which consume HeroPoints to be used/activated. This are a little bit overpowered so they feel great about having them, and since they consume HeroPoints are not really "That overpowered" from the DM standpoint,They love them, since their uniqueness turn them into their signature-moves easily.
I use them, but my players don't :p There's a lot to remember, so they don't often think of them when they should.
Since my campaign is not about heroes, I made a variant called Pirate Points.
It's pretty much the same except you get the points for audacity, stylish but unforgivable nastiness or otherwise being a magnificent bastard.
I don't hand out points for out of character services or behaviour because I don't like that kind of mechanic. I think in and out of character conduct should be separate and I hate the idea of the game putting the GM in charge of anything in the real world.
Since it's pirates, I make exceptions if players give the group rum, ships or genuine treasure maps. So far nobody has taken me up on that.
I use them, but my players don't.
I had the same experience, but in a campaign before PF. I made up some simple rules and passed out poker chips to the players. Nobody used them and they were forgotten. Weird.
I use them on a more limited scale: Players can spend one to force a re-roll or they can spend 5 to cancel a death (no resurrection/raise/etc in my game).
Generally I give 3 Hero Points at the start if they show up for the campaign with a complete character sheet and backstory. 1 more each time they level up.
Some players hoard them in fear of dying. Other players piss them away on silly re-rolls and then b%$&~ & moan when their character dies.
I posted in an older thread, so I'll just link it.
I use hero points quite a bit. I like it because I really dont use XP anymore. And when I want to reward things I want my players do, I give out hero points (in addition to the normal ways they can retrieve them). I have also implemented something similar to the fate system with hero points which I really like, though its still experimental.
Basically each character has 2 'aspects'. These aspects are things that complicate their lives, but can also provide them with some benefit. Something like a barbarian having 'uncage the beast'. He is hot tempered, and sometimes goes off without forethought.
So what do we do with these aspects? Well during play, when the dm things the situation seems appropriate the dm 'invokes' the aspect. This means the player has the choice of allowing the aspect to complicate their life. Say some noble scions are mouthing off the the barbarian in a tavern. Its probably not a good idea to beat them half to death, but the dm invokes the aspect 'uncage the beast'. The barbarian can choose to ignore the aspect and act 'wisely'. Or he can go with the aspect, and describe how the aspect complicates his life (in this case he beats the tar out of the noble brats). The player gets a hero point for it, but of course he now has to deal with the city watch, or what have you after a bar fight.
The idea here is similar to traits, you have mechanical benefits for flavor and roleplay, but here you actually give the dm a way to hang a carrot in front of the player to do something 'interesting'. And the player wont feel railroaded because he can choose to ignore it or if he does get into the 'mess' he gets a tangible reward for it.
When I use aspects by the way i dont use the cap on the amount of hero points a player can have, and sometimes allow creative additions around aspects (players being able to do things they normally couldnt but that apply to their aspects).
Edit:
Just realized i didnt make my actual point. Namely that you might want to think about adding 'aspects' to your hero point system. Giving each player the option of using them ofcourse. This way, both you and the player you mention in your post (a player can self invoke an aspect if the dm agrees with it) you could have the player take an apect like 'recklessly heroic'. And where the player has the opportunity to do such an action you can invoke the aspect, and if he goes after it you can give him a hero point, whether he uses an point in the action or not.
Our group has used a GM-granted incentive system for years prior to Pathfinder, and we basically use the same thing in Pathfinder.
The options listed in the GM's Guide for hero points are, imho, way too powerful and most of them favor spellcasters over martial classes, which just further imbalances the game in spellcasters' favor.
In 4e "action points" are more or less the same thing, and in playing 4e using action points creates silly situations that blow verisimiltude so far out of the water that I simply couldn't take 4e seriously as a role playing game.
What we do is award players "coupons" for special bonuses or options during game play. They can cash in a coupon at any time for the given result. The vast majority of bonuses are a +2 circumstance bonus on an attack, save or skill check, or a one round damage boost. The bonus can be taken after a roll, and usually is.
On occasion we might grant a +10 movement bonus for one round, or a DC boost to a spell or things like that.
As a player I tend to forget about the coupons unless the GM or another player reminds me. Which is fine with me, I tend to get caught up in playing my character and I tend to view things like this as being fundamentally meta-gaming activities.
I've often considered using them, and may in my next campaign, as I imagine my Gestalt Savage Tide/Serpent's Skull 3.5+PF mashup will be a bit deadlier than my current mostly-vanilla PF slightly-homebrewed Kingmaker is at the moment. I've been trying to keep the rules in this current game as basic as possible to get some new players in on the basics of the system before throwing around too many curve balls.
One of my players is in another group that uses "Roleplay Points" that work similarly in concept but very differently in execution; I have to admit most of my hesitancy for using the system comes from a one-shot he ran with them, where the handing out of the points felt very arbitrary and GM-favoritism based. If I do use Hero Points in a future game, I'll likely be a lot stricter on when I give them out, just to avoid this feeling.
I've always played with some form of "Hero Points" since I started in 3e D&D (I was only six...) because my dad would kind of randomly say, "Ok, you can use a hero point!" if I got stuck or scared that my guy would die or get his butt kicked or something. So to me it's just been a part of the game, and my players have enjoyed having it as part of theirs.
Really, I only ask because I wanted to get a feel for how other DMs play with the system. Especially with this player wanting to base his character pretty much off of the system I don't want it to turn into a, "Oh, the cavalier is off being the heroic center of attention again because he gets to reroll everything a billion times and can't die," or have him hog all the glory.
At the same time though it seems like a really, really cool character concept, especially since I've been considering throwing in a sort of "hero opportunity" every other encounter or so, something that I write in to the campaign that gives the players some kind of reason to do something crazy in addition to a combat or skill challenge or whatever.
It is nice to see other people using the system though! And I agree with the spells that do things with Hero Points. My players don't know about them, so I just pretend they don't exist... But it is weird how often players will forget about something as nutty as getting to take an extra Standard action, act out of turn, cast a higher level spell... They only remember things like that when they're about to die. Weird.