Hi y'all,
I have a problem in my group that's spoiling the fun of being a GM. The group consists of 5 players, we've played together in weekly games for 15 years or so. Experienced guys and girls that plays very well together.
The Jade Regent is our first campaign with Pathfinder rules, but we've completed Shackled City, Legacy of Fire and RotR - so they're experienced with the AP format and style. Right now, they're 5th level. It's a great campaign and I believe that they're all having fun.
The primary front fighters are a Oread druid/monk and a summoners Eidolon, and they have both been investing heavily into- and are both being buffed by their fellow players - to a degree where their AC's are hovering around AC 30 after about a round of fighting/buffing. The Eidolon dishes out quite a lot of damage and hitting quite often (claw, claw, bite - pounce, 10ft reach) but the Oread doesn't do that much damage. If someone questions the math, then there's a thread here with someone in the same situation.
Last time, I came to realize that I - as a GM - basically was sitting behind the screen hoping for 20's in order to hit the frontline fighters. Doing that for a whole night isn't much fun. Realizing that you’ve done it for several sessions and most likely will be doing it for the rest of the campaign is even less fun.
So during our last session, I told them that I was not having much fun, and asked them to tone the AC down. And I was met with some sympathy, but also arguments that "a high AC is all I got" and "it's fully legal within the rules" and "it's better that we buff each other than if we weren't" and "oh, but it's not getting much higher now".
While I really want to be sympathetic to a party that’s playing their characters smart, I simply cannot ignore that I’m not having fun.
Yeah - there's the occasional surprise attack which catches the party flatfooted or unbuffed. Or situations, where it's possible to get around the frontline fighters and deal damage to the characters behind the frontline and wreck some havoc. Some grabbling here, some touch attacks there... Obliviously Aid Another, Trip and other circumstantial bonuses can be brought into play.
It's not that I mind that some encounters are pushovers. The players should definitely occasionally feel that they're on top of their game. But the overall picture is that too many combats are pushovers - with the monsters not having any means of hitting their opponents (other than natural 20's).
And it's not like I don't know how to manage high-AC fights or set up a custom encounter to challenge such players either - but I really don't have the prep time to go thru' every- or at least most of the encounters to tailor and customize them to fit these two players obscene AC optimizations. On. Level. Friggin'. Five!
Ideally, I would like to run the encounters in the AP as-is (concentrating my limited prep time on the campaign story).
So what's a time-strapped, frustrated GM to do? Add an unexplainable +6 BAB bonus to all the monsters? Any thoughts from fellow GM’s?
/ Henning
It's an AP. It's going to be fairly easy on the PCs. If you don't want to add things or at least tweak encounters, you are up the creek without a paddle.
You would have to take away player options to tone down the party's AC. No one is going to like that solution.
Edit: Or use the variant Armor as DR system in ultimate combat. However, your AC optimized players are (probably) going to hate their AC being taken away from them.
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Well first and foremost, you have to recognize that the AP as-is is NOT designed for an optimized party. Heck its not even really designed for having morethen one solid front line character. It is designed for an average party of 4 on a 15 point buy. If you want to run an adventure as is and not have a bunch of pushover encounters, your party cant optimize, simple as that. You have a couple options.
1 talk to your players again and explain that you dont have the prep time to make these encounters challenging, and if they dont tone down the AC optimization, the game will likely stop. Offer them the change to rebuild, exchanging some AC abilities for offensive or utility abilities.
2. Find time for simple prep, say giving every creature in the adventure the advanced template AND/OR adding more of some of the creatures to every encounter to flank and aid another (thus increasing to hit in a simple way). Encounters will be harder, but against an optimized party thats ok. Note: XP would become a problem here since the party would level faster then the adventure expects, You need to either adjust xp amounts you give out, or do like alot of dms do and dont really use xp, just level the players where the adventure says they should level.
3. Find time to really adjust encounters. Get some touch attacks in there as well as area effects (think alchemists and casters slinging fireballs).
4. Tough it out and try to find joy in the story instead of the encounters (maybe even deliberately removing a lot of fights.
5. Go passive aggressive about it and have every enemy have just drank a potion of barkskin, mage armor, shield, and sheild of faith just before the players showed up.
I think the best thing you can do is discuss it further with you players. The most important thing is to make sure that they get where you're comming from.
You could adjust the attack bonuses or make more specified encounters, but i'm not sure I'd like that as a player. You can ask them what they think about buffing the monsters. Maybe they can make some changes to make "more ballanced" characters (not just taking AC down but also make something else better.)
I sounds like they are open to options, maybe you could try out diferent things.
I'm sorry I don't have any actual solutions.
Adventurers getting too big for their britches? Have to agree about running an AP. How about running them through something more challenging like Rappan Athuk? When several of them get eaten by purple worms maybe they will be more receptive of toning things down<WEG>!
AC will not scale as well as the enemy's hit bonus, so there will come a time in the future where this problem will go away. But getting there can be a challenge for the GM, since not having fun for multiple game sessions is not a solution.
A few things to think about and some options:
1) Is there higher ground the enemies could move into? +1 to hit.
2) Charge for that first attack. +2 to hit.
3) Lots of enemies that can't hit? Have 3-4 aid another one guy. +6-8 to hit.
4) Give a few guys potions of bull's strength that they use before combat. +2 to hit.
I don't know how far you are in the 2nd book of Jade Regent, but our campaign just finished that book. I'm playing a fighter with a shield and longsword, so he had pretty good AC. There was one combat where we fought something like 16 enemies. None of them could hit me except on a nat 20. The GM proceeded to roll (out in the open with different dice and even a die roller program) 5 nat 20s out of 6 attacks on me. I could only miss these guys on a 5 or less, so of course, I rolled 5 or less for 7 attacks in a row. That one combat almost convinced my fighter he should retire - wearing fullplate and shield, and these thugs hit him with ease, whereas he could barely hit the nearly-unarmored thugs back. Giving up adventuring was looking like the smart move.
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The GM does not have to play by the rules. So, yes, all the baddies just hit better. You can spend all your time with all the reasons why this baddie hits better than the other one, but there's no point to it.
After doing D&D for 20+ years, I read GURPS advice for GMs. The rules are in place to put the players on equal footing, not for a GM.
So yes, you can spend 20 hours a week coming up with a backstory about the guy who drank a magic potion, this other guy is on drugs, this other guy has a greater stat block, the other guy has two feats other than the useless ones in his statblock.
Or....
You can just say it is, cause you are the GM. The GM can ALWAYS crush the players at any time. The MAGIC of GMing is to make it look like you can't and to not.
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I would suggest looking at your experienced players who work well together as an APL increase. You have five experienced level 5 players, and I would definitely call that APL 6. If they are fighting encounters that are meant for APL 5 (CR 6-7), maybe you should add a few extra bad guys, or give your mooks the advanced template on occasion.
Also: if the monk isn't doing anything, have the enemies ignore him whenever possible. The eidolon should be a Knowledge (arcana) check to note that casting deep slumber or dismissal are both excellent ways to deal with the issue.
Incorporal encounters...
My tank got absolutely rocked by an incorporeal foe. Negative levels suck!
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Artanthos makes a good point. Audit the eidolon, because often they are built incorrectly. As he says, the Reach evolution only applies to a single attack.
Having not read the AP, I have no idea if it's feasible, but a shadow demon would give this party some trouble. As an incorporeal creature with DR, the eidolon would have a lot of problems doing damage. Furthermore, all of demon's attacks are touch attacks, so you would get around ridiculous natural armour.
Do you have the summoner's character sheet on hand? Make sure he's only using the natural armour evolution twice, etc. Post it if you want more eyes.
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Don't abuse it, but do look into throwing in an NPC with the spell control summoned creature and have it target the Eidolon to turn it on the party. This should be a one or two time incident or it becomes a punishment to the PC for playing the class, not a surprise twist to an encounter.
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I would be very careful "designing" encounters to negate the PCs strengths. There are other ways to adjust encounters to make high ACs less problematical for the GM. Some suggestions:
1. AoE spells
2. Traps
3. Terrain (put a group of archers on a ledge the high AC folks can't reach immediately)
4. Minion hordes (this is something I do a lot, it gives the party something to worry about just through the sheer numbers of creatures, but also lets them get the satisfaction of beating down an army. It's a win-win)
5. Touch spells or attacks
6. Conditions (dazed, stunned, etc.)
7. Swarms. Swarms are one of the things that terrify parties, regardless of AC.
8. Dispel Magic
9. Debuffs (throw a witch at the party. An invisible one even.)
10. Brutes with massive hit points (this is sort of like minions above, a massive beat down on a monster with massive hit points can be fun).
Just the first ten that pop into my head.
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First, any time I hear "eidolon", I want to double-check the math. Eidolon's are really tricky to build, and it's easy for power-gamers to (accidentally) make impossibly tough ones. If you post it here, we can double-check it to make sure it's legal.
Second, while it would be trivial to just bump up the to-hit bonuses of the baddies, it's not a good idea. If you and your players get into an "arms race", and only they have to play by the rules, pretty soon they're just going to stop playing. They obviously want to build "untouchable" characters, so just let them.
The trick is to show them that AC isn't everything. Rather than using bad guys who use touch attacks, or bypass armour, or whatever, use bad guys whose own AC is ridiculously high. Legal, of course, but high. Have them use the same buffs as the players.
Here's the thing: As a rule, it is the PCs who want to stop the NPCs, not the other way around. In other words, an inconclusive fight between adversaries where no one can conclusively hit is a net win for the bad guys. If nothing else, PCs need XP, and they don't get it for not defeating the enemy...
Once this sinks in to your players, they will start trying to boost their attack bonuses. That will cause them to be more rounded, which, if everything is legally built, should bring them back in line with the expected stats for their CR.
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It's not that you can't run around with a 30 AC if optimized for defense and the party is buffing. Lots of classes can do that. It just means your party knows what it is doing, is working well together and is thinking about more than DPR. Don't punish the group by making their build decisions irrelevant.
Try putting a few extra casters in the encounters to spice things up for you. Plenty of spells that ignore AC while still allowing the players to benefit most of the time.
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So other than overcoming ACs how else do you have fun as a GM?
oh yes thats true so unless he is large tall his reach is 5ft, and is reach evolution only would work on one type of attacks so the claw or bite but he could take the reach evolution twice so both attacks would have reach.
Actually, it's even more restricted than that. The Reach evolution says to choose one natural attack, not one type of natural attack or one natural attack form (in contrast to, for example, the Improved Damage evolution) - so you can only increase the reach of "left claw", not both "claws" together. It also contains no clause saying it can be selected multiple times, so you can't spend more evolution points to give a second attack reach.
It's really easy to overlook a lot of the minor constraints that various evolutions have. Which, considering that eidolons are really powerful even when built legally, means it's very easy to end up with something broken.
oh yes thats true so unless he is large tall his reach is 5ft, and is reach evolution only would work on one type of attacks so the claw or bite but he could take the reach evolution twice so both attacks would have reach.Actually, it's even more restricted than that. The Reach evolution says to choose one natural attack, not one type of natural attack or one natural attack form (in contrast to, for example, the Improved Damage evolution) - so you can only increase the reach of "left claw", not both "claws" together. It also contains no clause saying it can be selected multiple times, so you can't spend more evolution points to give a second attack reach.
It's really easy to overlook a lot of the minor constraints that various evolutions have. Which, considering that eidolons are really powerful even when built legally, means it's very easy to end up with something broken.
Reach would apply to two claw attacks (one set of claws), but not all claws if they have extra arms for example. You would not need to specify 'right' or 'left' claw though.
Also this
First, any time I hear "eidolon", I want to double-check the math. Eidolon's are really tricky to build, and it's easy for power-gamers to (accidentally) make impossibly tough ones. If you post it here, we can double-check it to make sure it's legal.
Second, while it would be trivial to just bump up the to-hit bonuses of the baddies, it's not a good idea. If you and your players get into an "arms race", and only they have to play by the rules, pretty soon they're just going to stop playing. They obviously want to build "untouchable" characters, so just let them.
The trick is to show them that AC isn't everything. Rather than using bad guys who use touch attacks, or bypass armour, or whatever, use bad guys whose own AC is ridiculously high. Legal, of course, but high. Have them use the same buffs as the players.
Here's the thing: As a rule, it is the PCs who want to stop the NPCs, not the other way around. In other words, an inconclusive fight between adversaries where no one can conclusively hit is a net win for the bad guys. If nothing else, PCs need XP, and they don't get it for not defeating the enemy...
Once this sinks in to your players, they will start trying to boost their attack bonuses. That will cause them to be more rounded, which, if everything is legally built, should bring them back in line with the expected stats for their CR.
If you don't mind posting your players builds we can go over them to make sure they are legal. Especially the summoner...... post the summoner :)
I recommend banning summoners. They are problematic in themselves. I think doing that would help as I am guessing he is doing a lot of buffing while his eidolon does a lot of damage.
While I have made summoners an NPC only class (as they are actively hunted and all Edolons are, in fact, demons) you can make a crack AC character quite easy...
I can make a Magus Kensai with a 20 point buy that can get to 28 AC by 4th level.. without the help of magic items, using only his own spells.
Just up the encounters OR have then use expendable magic items for often.. Potions of Divine Power, and so on.
you are the GM, you can tweak encounters as you wish.. make it fun.. make them a little scared.
Also show them AC is not everything....
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Actually, I believe the reach evolution applies to a type of natural attack.
If you read Ultimate Magic, they have sample monsters and in the Aboleth, they apply the reach evolution to all the Aboleth's tentacles, not just one.
Aboleth
The eidolon looks like an aberrant aquatic creature such as an aboleth.
25 points: Base Form aquatic; Primary Evolutions reach (tentacles), tentacles (2); Secondary Evolutions basic magic (ghost sound), huge, large, major magic (minor image), minor magic (silent image), tentacles (2), ultimate magic (major image).
In my game I had an optimized Barbarian (beast totem w/ racial bite) that would just tear through even ECL +3 encounters like a wet paper bag. So I just started having all my baddies (intelligent ones, random encounters aren't supposed to be that hard) have things like Protection from Good on them (also helped blunt the Enchanter). Also Enervation really became my friend. -4 to hit/saves and -20 hp will take your party down a notch.
Why are the NPCs all attacking the high-AC front-line fighters? Have them focus their attacks on whoever is weakest. If you're at that point in Jade Regent a lot of the bad guys should be sneaky / invisible types who can attack the party from behind if they get their act together.
This will motivate the buffers to buff something other than AC.
While I don't think summoners deserve to be banned, I do agree that they could use some slight nerfs to keep them from getting to crazy AC levels. I would recommend modifying their Improved Natural Armor evolution so that it only grants +1 natural armor instead of +2.
Since they can gain an evolution point with a feat, this puts things more in line with the one feat = +1 ac bonus standard. Your player may not like it, but honestly I think changing this one evolution can go a long way towards 'fixing' eidolons.
Echoing pretty much everyone:
1. Audit the eidolon. Building an eidolon is incredibly complex, and it is very likely that a mistake is being made.
2. Throttle encounters. If the party is getting a good amount AC boost from buff spells, try to spread the encounters out so that the buffs wear off between encounters. While they can get their AC to 30, surely they can't maintain it 24/7. I am not familiar with the AP, but if there are enemies that could do some research on the party, they could feint an attack, get the party to use their buffs, then come back after the buffs expire.
3. When possible ignore the front-liners. You said the monk doesn't really hurt that much, so ignore him. The eidolon might be capable offensively, but intelligent enemies might realize if they take down the summoner, bye-bye eidolon. I know in the group I DM there is a cleric with ~28 AC unbuffed at level 7. However he hits like a wet noodle so enemies just walk past him to the more threatening squishies. High AC is only useful if the enemy is attacking you, so have the enemies realize they aren't going to hit the monk or eidolon and go around them instead.
4. Target saves, touch AC, and use terrain. You are limited in what is available to you since it is an AP, but hit the eidolon with a couple save spells. The monk probably has pretty good save and touch AC, so this might not be as helpful of a strategy against him.
I prefer all of adamantine dragon's suggestions myself. Imagination and tactics are key, not just 'crank up the cr' or 'illogically make sure all the enemies are buffed to negate the player's advantage... Try hard not to make your solutions 'meta' solutions and they'll be perceived less like 'gm escalation' and remind players that being single minded is sometimes not the best strategy.
Sure some encounters should target the players strengths to show that it's an impressive build in its own baliwick, but every build has an achilles heel and being single minded about a single stat means the whole rest of the build is an achilles heel.
The one I didn't see on Adamantine Dragon's list that I'm sure he would have added in a heartbeat is 'Attack the party at night'...
Not everyone can sleep in their armor. Eidolon isnt around all night long unless you attack during the summoner's watch... Mmmm. Sweet sweet random encounters.
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1) Target saves instead of AC. Sub in spellcasters instead of mooks.
2) Give the enemies the advanced template (or some other more powerful template that you design.)
1) Target saves instead of AC. Sub in spellcasters instead of mooks.
This is a good one actually. Either the summoner or the eidolon is going to have bad saves depending on who is wearing the cloak of resistance.
For what it's worth, one of the games I'm in had a similar situation come up. Two of the players spent most of their resources optimizing AC, so they became extremely difficult for the DM to hit. After discussing his frustration with us, he implemented a house rule that turns any critical threat into an automatic hit and gave the low-level mooks scimitars so they would hit on an 18, 19, or 20. This has made them more threatening without negating the tanks' AC or making life impossible for the players with more well-rounded characters. You might see if your group is open to something similar.
A critical Threat does not happen unless it would have been a hit to begin with. Only a natural 20 always hits so I don't see how making a 18 & 19 a crit would make them hits if they would not hit normally unless I misunderstood the rules. Pretty sure if I am using a weapon with keen and whatever so that a roll of 16 thru 20 is a possible crit but I need a 19 to hit the monster, a 16 - 18 is a miss, not a possible crit.
Basically, how can you have a crit if that attack does not hit.
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For what it's worth, one of the games I'm in had a similar situation come up. Two of the players spent most of their resources optimizing AC, so they became extremely difficult for the DM to hit. After discussing his frustration with us, he implemented a house rule that turns any critical threat into an automatic hit and gave the low-level mooks scimitars so they would hit on an 18, 19, or 20. This has made them more threatening without negating the tanks' AC or making life impossible for the players with more well-rounded characters. You might see if your group is open to something similar.A critical Threat does not happen unless it would have been a hit to begin with. Only a natural 20 always hits so I don't see how making a 18 & 19 a crit would make them hits if they would not hit normally unless I misunderstood the rules. Pretty sure if I am using a weapon with keen and whatever so that a roll of 16 thru 20 is a possible crit but I need a 19 to hit the monster, a 16 - 18 is a miss, not a possible crit.
He's saying that if the roll is in the crit range, he made it an auto-hit just like a 20.
I recommend banning summoners. They are problematic in themselves. I think doing that would help as I am guessing he is doing a lot of buffing while his eidolon does a lot of damage.
Right.
“Hey guys, D&D is a game, and the objective of a game is for everyone to have fun. Having those real high AC means that I, as DM are not having much fun, and it also means that if I design monster than can hit you two, they will insta-kill any other member of the party. How about scaling it back a bit, eh? Bob, I am giving you permission to re-do your eidolon, add some skills or something and scale back the AC & damage. Or, I am thinking about dropping the summoner class altogether, is there another PC you have been wanting to run?” In other words, sit down and talk with them like adults.
Oh and James Jacobs agrees with me in that we think the Summoner class was a mistake, as is. The eidolon with it’s “build your own” becomes too powerful and requires the DM to carefully mathcheck the build.
And yes, Reach is one attack. Just one, not all or even all of a type.
Good advice above re: going after squishier targets, targeting saves, and night attacks.
Don't forget that your problem is that you are having difficulty whittling down certain PCs and an eidolon with melee and ranged attacks that target regular AC. There are other sorts of attacks. Alchemists fire, flaming oil, and tar bombs don't care how high your regular AC is. Tanglefoot bags likewise.
Use combat maneuvers. Dirty Trick to temporarily blind your PCs (which will have serious repercussions on their ACs), or Grapple them, or Trip them (if they fall they are easier to hit and provoke attacks of opportunity as they get up). Have some enemies that have switched out a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Net (actually, touch ACs are often so low that proficiency may not even be required to use a net effectively, at least on the first attack). Nets entangle.
Also, don't forget that hidden foes are effectively invisible until they attack (sometimes even then if they have really good Stealth and cover bonuses) and that invisibility not only negates Dex and dodge bonuses to AC, leaving foes flatfooted, it grants a +2 to hit them. A hidden/invisible foe attacking from behind also negates shield bonuses to AC.
Consider throwing Thunderstones at the party. If they fail their saves it'll mess with their initiative, with their Perception scores (making Stealth easier against them), and with the casters' ability to cast spells.
If you've got mobs of enemies, aside from the already mentioned Aid Another checks to grant bonuses to hit, consider giving them teamwork feats. Those are generally better for mobs than for PCs, and feats like Outflank and Coordinated Maneuvers can really do a number on PCs who are outnumbered and surrounded. Those two feats taken together would give four enemies surrounding a PC a +6 to success with combat maneuvers, or if there were only 3 of them would give two of them +6 and one of them (the non-flanking one) +4.
And yes, Reach is one attack. Just one, not all or even all of a type.
I'm pretty sure that's not how they meant it to work, since that doesn't fit with how every other attack modifying evolution and feat works. Probably just a typo.
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Gunstlingers hit touch AC.
I often use hit and run ambushes. Sure, you could cast your spells to buff your AC, but I can outlive your buffs by waiting and making you waste resources, running away from you as fast as I can, and then coming back.
My solution to the above situation (I have been there!) are twofold:
- ban summoners outright.
- implement a house rule that automatic hits occur on 18-20. Yes that's right every character regardless of AC will be hit by 15% of attacks aimed at them.
You would be surprised at how much extra caution this adds to entering combat! A side benefit is that mooks actually have a decent chance to hit characters many levels above them.
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Two words “Rust Monsters”
Does kinda depend on the party but most Fighters and Clerics tend to ruin away when faced with them.
I am not suggesting that you attack their armor or anything but these sorts of creatures tend to cause concern and fear in high AC parties. Eidolon will however not be phased by this.
As already mentioned, how many encounters are they going through in a day, all those buffs take resources and they are usually limited and will not last all day. Skirmishing is a good way to eat through a parties resources.
As other people have stated AOE spells and effects are always useful, Grappling, flanking, invisible and tripping are all good ways to reduce the AC.
You sound like an experienced DM so you know all of this already.
When I get a party too big for their boots I usually use something mean to put them back in their place. A carefully situated mirror of Opposition is always good for this. I do believe there are some good places for such a tactic in the module. Been a while since a read through that one.
I once played in an evil city campaign where we had an item which made a mirror a gateway to a mirror plane which connected corridors connecting all the nearby mirrors together and turning them all into gateways we could pass through. Passing through this mirror caused an exact duplicate to appear within the corridors of the mirror plane and hunt down the party attempting to kill its duplicate and take over its place so it could exit into the real world.
We only found this out after using it a few times as they attacked us. After this we were always very careful to not get too hard that the other members of the party could not defeat each individual member of the group as they were likely to run into them. It was a huge amount of fun sneaking through mirrors and stealing from the rich people’s houses as they could afford the large mirrors we could walk through. Had to be quick otherwise we go attacked by mirror’s of ourselves.
That seemed like it was a perfect way of making the party control its own power levels. Probably would not help you as it seems all of your party has high AC’s not just one or two which is usual.
I think a mirror of opposition may give you something to amuse yourself with and make the party scared. This is an extreme measure though and may backfire if they figure out a way to take the mirror and use it.
I'm pretty sure that's not how they meant it to work, since that doesn't fit with how every other attack modifying evolution and feat works. Probably just a typo.And yes, Reach is one attack. Just one, not all or even all of a type.
Question has been asked and answered over and over.
The RAW stands:
Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.
They even say “ONE” twice.
Many requests for FAQ and only a reply of “No FAQ needed’ but I think either SKR or JJ agreed. Just one attack.
I'm pretty sure that's not how they meant it to work, since that doesn't fit with how every other attack modifying evolution and feat works. Probably just a typo.And yes, Reach is one attack. Just one, not all or even all of a type.
Question has been asked and answered over and over.
The RAW stands:
Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.
They even say “ONE” twice.
Many requests for FAQ and only a reply of “No FAQ needed’ but I think either SKR or JJ agreed. Just one attack.
Well, that will be one of the things that I fix in my summoner houserules I think, because it makes no sense to single it out that way. It also makes the issue of eidolons with impossible anatomies even worse...
The class is too powerful as it is. Better just to ban the class or dump that power.