|
Let's say an alchemist has a base attack of +9/+4 and the rapid bomb discovery.
He has rapid shot, explaining that when he makes a full round attack with a ranged weapon, he attacks on more time. -2 penalty on all.
Haste gives one extra attack with one weapon. +1 to all attacks.
TWF allows an additional attack. -2 Penalty on all.
The alchemist takes a full round attack. What does he attack on? Does the rapid shot count twice, once for his main hand bombs, once for his off hand?
+6/+6/+6/+1/+1? Is that correct?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Base: +9/+4
w/ Rapid Shot: +7/+7/+2
w/ Rapid Shot and Haste: +8/+8/+8/+3
w/ Rapid Shot, Haste, and TWF: +6/+6/+6/+6/+1
w/ Rapid shot, Haste, TWF, and ITWF: +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1
Edit: Just to clarify TWF gives you another +6 attack, not a +1 Attack. ITWF on the other hand grants an additional +1 attack. Using both TWF and ITWF you have an extra two attacks, one at +6 and the other at +1.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
TWF definitely applies to thrown weapons.
That said, no Rapid Shot applies once per round, not once per weapon or anything else.
So, you'd have +6/+6/+6/+6/+1 with TWF, Rapid Shot, and Haste.
You'd also run out of bombs extremely quickly.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While the authors unfortunately forgot to include the words "melee weapon" in the TWF feat description, they did say weapons must "wielded in each hand," not thrown. I do not believe TWF applies to non-melee weapons.
Alchemist: If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10 Back to Top
The basic TWF feat only lowers the penalty when trying to get an extra attack.
From the core book:
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While the authors unfortunately forgot to include the words "melee weapon" in the TWF feat description, they did say weapons must "wielded in each hand," not thrown. I do not believe TWF applies to non-melee weapons.
From the Combat chapter, under the Two-Weapon Fighting section:
"Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon."
So, yes, TWF applies to thrown weapons also. Typically when using multiple attacks with thrown weapons, you also need the Quickdraw feat in order to throw more thrown weapons that you start the round holding.
****************************************************************
However, from the Alchemist's section on bombs:
"Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity."
So, without further modification, the standard action for using a bomb prevents more than one from being used in a single round.
The Fast Bombs Discovery (called rapid bomb by OP), allows preparing and throwing more than one bomb in a single round:
"Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery."
It gets a bit dicey here, as the phrase "if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks" seems to limit this to additional bombs based on BAB. The phrase, "this functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon" then seems to open it up to whatever feats and other resources provide additional attacks.
Lest the argument rage too far, however, the FAQ addresses it directly, here.
"Alchemist: If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
"As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.""
Once all the rules resources are identified, there should be no question that it works absent houserule to prevent it.
*******************
Edit: Confucius say, "Man who writes long reply gets ninja'd every time."
Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert.
...Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity
So you're not preparing all these bombs ahead of time and then throwing them when you chose to. It costs a standard actions to draw the components, charge them with energy, and then throw them. So TWF does not apply.
Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery.
^That discovery is needed to be able to throw more than one bomb per round, regardless of BAB.
|
|
Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery.^That discovery is needed to be able to throw more than one bomb per round, regardless of BAB.
That is correct and I believe it was assumed, as the OP stated, that the above discovery was being used. Since the discovery is assumed to have been taken then he gets 2 attacks for BAB, 1 attack for Rapid Shot, 1 attack for TWF, and 1 attack for Haste or a +6/+6/+6/+6/+1 attack sequence.
Edit: Also, as per the FAQ, TWF does apply in this instance and any other ruling would be a house rule. You could justify this ruling by saying that as the Alchemist prepares a bomb with his right hand he is doing the same with the left, mixing the components one handed. There is nothing to my knowledge that indicates that creating a bomb requires two hands.
well yes, but that what he's been talking about all along (rapid bomb) fast bomb feat included.
Fast bomb modifies the time taken to make bombs to : you can make as many as you can throw by RAW.
Wow that seems like some super cheese. That sounds like it would be so much fun for all the other players, especially if the alchemist gets to go high in the initiative order. Not.
"Let's just hang out and watch the alchemist player roll six attacks and win the battle by himself."
Lame. As a DM that alchemist would suddenly jump to the tip top of my munchkin hit list. He'd be a dead alchemist very fast.
Wow that seems like some super cheese. That sounds like it would be so much fun for all the other players, especially if the alchemist gets to go high in the initiative order. Not.
"Let's just hang out and watch the alchemist player roll six attacks and win the battle by himself."
Lame. As a DM that alchemist would suddenly jump to the tip top of my munchkin hit list. He'd be a dead alchemist very fast.
I had a player use this in a game from level 1 to level 18. This takes a TON of feats and powers to pull off... and even then he could to it at high level for about 3 rounds the entire day before he was out of bombs.
It is a fairly effective nova for a couple of rounds if the character is built to do just that... but not really that big of a deal in a proper game with more then a few encounters in a day. He could do it more if he spent even more feats to gain additional bombs per day. And yes, one trick pony builds are very good at their one trick.
glorious.... hah.
i don't see the cheese, investing in those feats is ok if you are chucking knives but not if you are chucking bombs?
Also, my sinking that much into feats to throw more and more bombs, you dont have any room for any other feats, so you are donkey kong...chucking little explosive barrels... but thats about it. 1 trick wonder. (well you can do a few other class things, but certainly haven't sunk much into them...no feats left for addtl discoveries etc etc.)
I have an alchemist right now. He's level 5 and throw 2 bombs a round, which is fairly effective, but not yet broken, so he's not really on the hit list just yet. The problem with the six attacks is that they are all multi target attacks. I mean a monk can easily dish out a boat load of attacks as well, but they will only hit a single target at once. Of course a monk isn't really limited on how often he can use flurry of blows. The kicker for me is stacking in the TWF feat. I probably wouldn't allow that. It may be compatible based on the letter of the law, but I certainly don't view it as the intent of the law (especially given the feat came before the alchemist class even existed). I'm sure the player could find something else to do with that feat.
The alchemist class is kind of innate cheese IMO. The visual of this guy mixing up all these volatile chemicals at Flash like speeds and chucking them out as exploding bombs is a ridiculous one. Doesn't he ever run out of glass vials or chemicals to mix? Couldn't a big giant just walk up, scoop him off the ground and shake him or crush him until his vials and chemicals are busted and spilt all over.
To be devils advocate on the others side, It's like gunslinger and loading/shooting two pistols... If the Alchemist is TWF chucking bombs, what is he using to make them/handle material (he could use vestigial limb, but that would be another forced choice...sinking more choices into the one hit wonder)
It's a lot of feats to do one thing that you might run out of. I think that's where it gets balanced at. However, although rules don't prevent it, like TWF gunslingers, it raises the question of..."how the heck is he pulling that off?"
Wow that seems like some super cheese. That sounds like it would be so much fun for all the other players, especially if the alchemist gets to go high in the initiative order. Not.
"Let's just hang out and watch the alchemist player roll six attacks and win the battle by himself."
Lame. As a DM that alchemist would suddenly jump to the tip top of my munchkin hit list. He'd be a dead alchemist very fast.
Uh, what about ANY CLASS using Archery? The only attack they'd be missing is the one from TWF--but wait! They'd get an extra one from Multi-Shot, so, yeah, it's the same. And you're not limited per day.
You'd only have about ~21 bombs per day (give or take a few), depending on your Intelligence at the point that this is happening (+9 BAB is 14th level), so you're looking at throwing bombs like that 4-5 times, total, all day.
Only being effective 4-5 rounds a day is not something I'd consider broken. I'd consider it boring and sad.
And it's actually kind of lousy compared to the Archer who can pour out the same number of attacks without real limit (since by level 14, you can carry arrows in extra dimensional space)--and the Archer is probably dealing more damage per hit, too.
Oh, and you talk about the splash damage like it matters--it's the minimum bomb damage. Assuming around a +7 Intelligence and Point Blank Shot, you're only looking at ~15 splash damage at 14th level! And there's a save for half, too, so it's nearly inconsequential.
Every Alchemist wants Fast Bombs, and probably wants either Rapid Shot or TWF for when it's really needed, but taking both is wasteful and it just won't come up--there's too many useful things you could take and the big thing Alchemists do is CC. You don't need to land a successful Tanglefoot, Confusion, and Stink Bomb--you really just need one to work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The alchemist class is kind of innate cheese IMO. The visual of this guy mixing up all these volatile chemicals at Flash like speeds and chucking them out as exploding bombs is a ridiculous one. Doesn't he ever run out of glass vials or chemicals to mix? Couldn't a big giant just walk up, scoop him off the ground and shake him or crush him until his vials and chemicals are busted and spilt all over.
Yeah, man, and can't a Giant walk up and scoop a Wizard off the ground and shake him or crush him until his spell component pouch spills open and he loses all his stupid bat poop and whatever? Or pick up the Fighter and peel the plate off of him like you'd peel an orange?
The Alchemist makes no more or less sense than any other class in the game.
Well it's the image of mixing a half dozen vials of explosive and hurling them all in a matter of about 6 six seconds that is a bit more ridiculous than other PCs. If not from a mechanical stand point, just from a in world stand point. There's no shortage of other over the top stuff in the game mind you, that one just kind of jumps out to me.
I'd had forgotten that the alchemist splash damage is only minimum damage, so maybe it's not all that broken considering the bombs per day limit and so on... but the image of it still seems really silly.
A giant ripping off a wizard's spell component pouch actually seems like it would be a fairly legal, and probably good tactic if the giant was smart enough to come up with the idea. Of course if the wizard's smart he'll be up in the air with a fly spell, out of reach, but then so would an alchemist.
once the giant had his mitts on the wizard, ripping the spell pouch off probably wouldnt be necessary as the resulting grapple would prevent spells being cast, and the wizard is unlikely to escape said grapple on his own....so that would be end game.. also note the wizard would have to be sleeping to let something like that happen...
I had thought rapid shot and TWF were mutually exclusive. Are they not? This can be a bit overpowered for an alchemist who probably won't care about that extra -2.
Nope, they both require a full attack action so they can be used together.
My wife has had a dagger throwing rogue (modeled after merisel) who has TWF and Rapid shot... although she wasnt hucking bombs.... I think she moved onto multi shot but i cant recall now... it was back when Beta was out and we were playing Second Darkness.
I have an alchemist right now. He's level 5 and throw 2 bombs a round,How does he do this? You can only throw one Bomb/round until you take the Fast Bombs Discovery, which is an 8th level discovery... so you have a problem with your build.
Common thing. If someone points at a class and cries chees most likely he's not using the rules right.
As a DM that alchemist would suddenly jump to the tip top of my munchkin hit list. He'd be a dead alchemist very fast.
Very grown up reaction. Do you always just kill every PC you don't like? How about talking to the player?
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
See that guy, doing that one thing, like, really well, for short periods of time, and like, unable to do it again until the next day, SCREW HIM!
Average guys doing things average things, averagely well, is all I put up with.
Everything else is CHEEEEEEEESSSE, and I won't even, like, talk with the guy.
I am just going to, like, passive-aggressively screw with the guy, because, like, screw that guy.
For reals.
I wish there was some way to make a witch/alchemist that made cackle somehow effect bombs... I just had a vision of this character laughing maniacally tossing bombs.... maybe even riding a glider... with a bat face on it?
I wish there was some way to make a witch/alchemist that made cackle somehow effect bombs... I just had a vision of this character laughing maniacally tossing bombs.... maybe even riding a glider... with a bat face on it?
Make him just a halfling with the jinx ability and the malicious eye and sluggish jinx feat That way the cackle will still not affect the bombs but it would fit the flavor.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
what about the evil midnight bomber, what bombs at midnight???
|
My GM actually played one with this trick. The Targeted Bomb Admixture extract helped a lot. It is glorious for some rounds per day, but he touched his allies with a critical miss more than once, to our great despair; he was running out of bombs fast; and the group's archer fighter was still kicking way more asses.
Two weapon Fighting and Rapid shot. This is combo that Paizo put out in dragon magazine when 3.0 fist came out call "class combo's" check the fisrt dragon mag of 3.0 time.
Yes it work and you take -4 to each shot. But they can not keep it up for that many rounds cause they run out of bombs.
Sure you may solo a fight but any class can.
Rouge Sneak attack 2 weapon fighting high int suprize round
round 1 Sup hit bad 1 time with sneak attack
round 2 full attack bad guy with 4 times with sneak attack
blaster Caster same
Archer
Gunslinger
Paladina smite
2handed fighter/ Bar.
Point is any striker build done right can solo a monster in the right setting.
The question what can he after he novas in fihgt 1 and in fight 2. What can do in fight # 3 not much they are littel are no help then.
TWF is for melee weapons and unarmed attacks only!
Rapid shot is for ranged weapons only!You can't combine the two feats to get more attacks.
Yeah, you totally can. Rapid Shot is for ranged weapons only, but TWF is for any kind of dual wielding, including throwing or shooting crossbows/pistols.
|
|
TWF is for melee weapons and unarmed attacks only!
Rapid shot is for ranged weapons only!You can't combine the two feats to get more attacks.
If I'm wrong then why would there be two feats that do the same thing?
First, they don't do the same thing. You can actually TWF without the feat, just at a massive penalty to your attack rolls, the TWF feat just reduces that penalty so it is manageable. Rapid Shot provides an additional ranged attack at your highest BAB for the cost of -2 on all attack rolls.
Also, I believe you will find the following insightful, emphasis mine:
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
|
|
TWF is for melee weapons and unarmed attacks only!
Rapid shot is for ranged weapons only!You can't combine the two feats to get more attacks.
If I'm wrong then why would there be two feats that do the same thing?
They don't do exactly the same thing. They do both give extra attacks, however, which are confirmed to stack. One affects only ranged attacks, while the other can only be used with multiple weapons.
Yeah, I'm on board with the mad bomber thing we got going on. I just have one question. Would bombs be considered one handed or a light weapon? I mean, Bolas aren't massive and they are considered one handed.
Is it stated somewhere whether bombs are light or one handed?
They are considered splash weapons, which I believe precludes them from the one-handed category IMO. I would say light.
Neat. I need to play a mad bomber soon.
agreed...all those feats can be used...no where does it say that it actually takes 2 hands to make and throw a bomb...but if u want to rule it in your game then thats ur call and more power to ya as a GM...but if u are at least hint to ur alchemist taking a third arm or tentacle so he could do it lol
|
|
I play an alchemist in Pathfinder Society, although I've decided to go for more debuffs than damage. He is able to throw an Entangling Bomb twice per round that will glue his enemies down like a tanglefoot bag, and entangle the enemies caught in the splash radius. I'll be picking up Rapid Shot but not TWF, as it's too feat intensive and I wanted more discoveries. I'm greatly looking forward to Confusion bomb, due to the lack of save involved.
Novaing with all those feats will definitely mean very few rounds of bomb-throwing, even if you are doing ridiculous damage.
|
|
Now, here is something I have not seen, though I could have missed it, are bombs counted as light or one-handed weapons? If they are light weapons then between TWF and Rapid Shot you have a -4 on attacks, but if it is one-handed then that is a -6. Even with a touch attacks that is a pretty steep penalty.
Personally, if I were the DM I would rule bombs are a 0ne-handed weapon.
Yeah, you totally can. Rapid Shot is for ranged weapons only, but TWF is for any kind of dual wielding, including throwing or shooting crossbows/pistols.TWF is for melee weapons and unarmed attacks only!
Rapid shot is for ranged weapons only!You can't combine the two feats to get more attacks.
Can you combine the two feats together?
Yes.
I would say they are the same as a Fuse or Pellet Grenade. Which I believe are classified as Light Weapons.
|
|
I guess how you picture them does effect how you would see their size catagory. Sometimes I picture a grenado, other times a beaker of unstable chemicals. Still, if we go with something in the granado size and shape you are looking at a softball sized object that would probably be somewhat dense with a decent weight. Light thrown weapons like the dart and shuriken have almost no weight.
This would make for a nasty villian build. Who cares if he can only do it a round or 2 a day? He is only going to survive that long anyway.
Advanced Player's Guide, pg. 28: "Bomb: ...In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst--the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day--once created, a catalyst vial remains useable by the alchemist for years."
The bomb vials are small ("an ounce;" even if a weight ounce and not a fluid ounce) and contain a catalyst that the alchemist infuses with magic ("creates") just before throwing. So, light thrown weapon and can be used with Fast Bomb + Rapid Shot (+ Quick Draw) + Two-Weapon Fighting; the alchemist doesn't have to mix the catalyst during combat, just infuse it with the particular magic to create the desired effect.
So part of his prep is mixing the catalyst then in combat he just charges the Catalyst...
There goes my Rikku Overdrive Image.