I remember in EQ they had mobs that would actually use the loot the had ie. if a group of skeletons were in an area and one had say chain mail or a sword in its loot, it's graphic would show the chain mail or the sword and it would use it against you.
I always wondered why no other game did that. Given EQs age it can't be that difficult. But maybe I'm wrong and it is difficult.
Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see why loot can't be handled like it is in Elder Scrolls games. All of the equipment the character is using can be looted. Simply adding variety to the equipment an enemy can use would add huge amounts of variety to the games enemies.
Different skins and skin tones also would help a lot too. Generic Orc # 1397 does not help anybodies gaming experience.
Adding diseases to the game and NPC population would also add a lot to the ecology. If it spreads from animal to animal and can affect behavior or mortality rate, Druids could have all kinds of work just managing the health of the wildlife population.
Diseases might even be cool for players too if they can serve as a vector for the disease. Suddenly, the game might be faced by a plague that keeps the healer population busy fighting.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I remember in EQ they had mobs that would actually use the loot the had ie. if a group of skeletons were in an area and one had say chain mail or a sword in its loot, it's graphic would show the chain mail or the sword and it would use it against you.
I always wondered why no other game did that. Given EQs age it can't be that difficult. But maybe I'm wrong and it is difficult.
I played EQ for awhile, but remember so little about it. In any case, the problem comes down to two things art and animation.
With your suggestion the art should already be there if it is loot the players can get and use, so that isn't as big of an issue. Although as per an earlier post if you want a whole bunch of random looking goblins based solely on appearance (not gear) you hit that art issue again. Luckily with Unity if we have some talented modelers in the community this could be easily offset by having the community also contribute art.
The second issue, is the more pressing one. If they let monsters use any of their own loot. Then you have to ensure you have a really solid animation system worked out so that the animations look appropriate between small, medium, large creatures all using all the different pieces of gear.
I remember in EQ they had mobs that would actually use the loot the had ie. if a group of skeletons were in an area and one had say chain mail or a sword in its loot, it's graphic would show the chain mail or the sword and it would use it against you.
I always wondered why no other game did that. Given EQs age it can't be that difficult. But maybe I'm wrong and it is difficult.
I played EQ for awhile, but remember so little about it. In any case, the problem comes down to two things art and animation.
With your suggestion the art should already be there if it is loot the players can get and use, so that isn't as big of an issue. Although as per an earlier post if you want a whole bunch of random looking goblins based solely on appearance (not gear) you hit that art issue again. Luckily with Unity if we have some talented modelers in the community this could be easily offset by having the community also contribute art.
The second issue, is the more pressing one. If they let monsters use any of their own loot. Then you have to ensure you have a really solid animation system worked out so that the animations look appropriate between small, medium, large creatures all using all the different pieces of gear.
Sort of figured that would be the hurdle. Good thing the software has evolved so much since EQ days. They may not add all the art needed to let mobs use what they have, but hopefully they can make mobs not all appear the same. That'll be nice!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is pretty standard for any lootable attire or object that can be held to have a representation in the world. For humanoid creatures it should not be terribly challenging for loot to be equipped and visible, be it chainmail shirt or sparkly pendent. If a creature cannot reasonably wear or use it it should be unlikely loot anyway.
That said if a hobgoblin is wearing a chain shirt we should expect it to be bettr armored than if bare chested or wearing leather.
That said if a hobgoblin is wearing a chain shirt we should expect it to be bettr armored than if bare chested or wearing leather.
Lol yep, I remember that from EQ. When the mob had a good weapon, it's attacks were just way above its unarmed fellows! They had what's known as "miscons" mobs that were actually stronger then they appeared. You quickly learned there locations I tell ya! Heh.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It is pretty standard for any lootable attire or object that can be held to have a representation in the world. For humanoid creatures it should not be terribly challenging for loot to be equipped and visible, be it chainmail shirt or sparkly pendent. If a creature cannot reasonably wear or use it it should be unlikely loot anyway.
That said if a hobgoblin is wearing a chain shirt we should expect it to be bettr armored than if bare chested or wearing leather.
Again the problem is trying all that art together. Yes and NPC that resembles a PC should be able to equip and use anything a PC can because the art and animation is already there for the PC. However, for the monstrous NPC's to do the same would require additional art and animation for those NPCs.
I think this would be great and would love to see it, just noting the apparent difficulties.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That was the beauty of UO though, their creatures were animations of something like plasticine style models, they had to actually CAPTURE each shot for each animation, yet still they had multiple hues on the same model/skin and multiple weapons, sometimes a few different skins/models.
Also if you work off the assumption that weapons have a series of attacks and the skills provide others, by giving them a randomised set of weapons you've already given them significant variety. Even one model with 2 skins and a variety of hues (for a goblin for example, just different shades of green, from a yellowish green to a really dark brownish green) would add a huge amount of variety. If there's say 12 hues and 2 skins, that 24 different looking goblins you can have before you even have different weapons. If weapons retain their skills just as they would between players, just giving them different weapons would hugely change each encounter. If you can also give them skill and stat ranges (perhaps even the ability to improve from fighting more, so an ogre that wipes out a whole party of adventurers actually gets more skilled, that would certainly make things interesting, you could end up with veteran mobs)
It's not without without difficulties, but hues in particular shouldn't be too difficult to put in, they do it with skin and hair tones don't they? why don't they just apply the same thing to npc generations? If it was possible in 1997...
And it's one of those things that could be done gradually over time. You start with one model and skin for each, then you progressively add more, starting with the most commonly seen things.
If you think about it, this game is designed for the long haul. Do you really need the models, textures and animations to be ready on release for a master level weapon that you can't even used until you've been playing for a year and a half?
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Goblin Squad Member
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...If you can also give them skill and stat ranges (perhaps even the ability to improve from fighting more, so an ogre that wipes out a whole party of adventurers actually gets more skilled, that would certainly make things interesting, you could end up with veteran mobs)...
That idea should be highlighted, Jameow. That is right up there with escalating mob mechanics.
But if Pathfinder online will have the time duration experience model we should conserve and afford a similar mechanic for mobs that don't die until killed rather than building a whole new routine for them different from ours. This way your idea potentially adds a whole new range of depth by simply using the same routine players enjoy over time... though granted we still have to confront the issue of a trainer for them.
If our training is a result of our choosing from a selection of possibilities,you could easily use a random number generation routine to autopick the now veteren mob's new skill set.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If monsters are given passive skill growth over time, then all that would likely need to be done is to pre-assing them skills with a "play-list" that automatically switches them to the next skill when appropriate. Skill would likely be untrainable without a set prerequisite (In EVE you could "learn" as skill book before you could actually train it, it would just sit a 0).
A randomizer is a good idea early on. Down the road as there is time and options to add complexity, a "kill" tracker could be added that biases the random result. Such that an Ogre that has fought mostly mages ends up biased down an anti-mage path.
*edit*
To save server CPU and overhead, I'd almost suggest that some mobs be given a random change of being *hero* mobs with skill growth, and likely add a cap on the number of *heroes* per hex (based on various criteria). That way the server doesn't have to get bogged down tracking a ever growing number of *heroes* in its database. Even off camera that could end up being an issue without some kind of cap.
...If you can also give them skill and stat ranges (perhaps even the ability to improve from fighting more, so an ogre that wipes out a whole party of adventurers actually gets more skilled, that would certainly make things interesting, you could end up with veteran mobs)...That idea should be highlighted, Jameow. That is right up there with escalating mob mechanics.
But if Pathfinder online will have the time duration experience model we should conserve and afford a similar mechanic for mobs that don't die until killed rather than building a whole new routine for them different from ours. This way your idea potentially adds a whole new range of depth by simply using the same routine players enjoy over time... though granted we still have to confront the issue of a trainer for them.
If our training is a result of our choosing from a selection of possibilities,you could easily use a random number generation routine to autopick the now veteren mob's new skill set.
We batted this idea around in another thread. No one really disagreed with it and it certainly would add a lot to PvE encounters, provide lots of RP opportunities and be pretty fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very good concept, folks. I want to add here one idea from EVE which can add another facet to this gaame. What, if you can work for these growing communities of sentient humanoids? Their quests may be scarce and without much reward (besides the growing standing with these NPC factions), but even existence of this path will really add to the level of believability of this game world.
In eve players usually do PvE missions against the 5 pirate factions. But you can go to lawless regions of space, find mission agents of such faction and start to do the missions, collecting loot, standings increase (and decrease)and loyalty points to by their special stuff. Of course most players fight against them and got this stuff from pooor dead pirates, but you can choose either path.
P.S. I'm sorry if my English isn't so good.
It would be nice :) relates to the social skills/diplomacy topics
Very good concept, folks. I want to add here one idea from EVE which can add another facet to this gaame. What, if you can work for these growing communities of sentient humanoids? Their quests may be scarce and without much reward (besides the growing standing with these NPC factions), but even existence of this path will really add to the level of believability of this game world.
In eve players usually do PvE missions against the 5 pirate factions. But you can go to lawless regions of space, find mission agents of such faction and start to do the missions, collecting loot, standings increase (and decrease)and loyalty points to by their special stuff. Of course most players fight against them and got this stuff from pooor dead pirates, but you can choose either path.
P.S. I'm sorry if my English isn't so good.
This is similar to the factions that EQ had. I know in Eve it's called Standing with the group(s). It could be as simple as communicating with the creatures, say Orcs. They would tell you that they keep getting attacked by Bugbears, so if you go kill bugbears you raise faction/standing with the orcs. If the Devs really wanted to take it that far then if you gained sufficient faction then eventually you would be welcome by the orcs and able to trade with certain NPCs in areas that have a sufficient population of orcs. Likely though doing this would decrease faction with some races like humans, elves etc..
I think it would cool if players could do quests to advance this Orc nation from being just a bunch of hexes overrun by Orcs to a proper civilization with real cities and its own infrastructure.
While I agree, I think that's a bit beyond the scope the Devs would be willing to consider. :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it would cool if players could do quests to advance this Orc nation from being just a bunch of hexes overrun by Orcs to a proper civilization with real cities and its own infrastructure.While I agree, I think that's a bit beyond the scope the Devs would be willing to consider. :p
If they decide to one day add monster Races it could be an awesome way to build a 'monster' starting area.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If an Orc encampment is left unchecked you should see an increase in it's size. Maybe not a "city" per se, but a dangerously large settlement.
From the blog Adventure in the River Kingdoms:
Encampments: Encampments represent organized bands of monstrous humanoids actively engaged in trying to control their hex. They begin as fairly small, easy-to-eliminate camps, but left unchecked, they will escalate, becoming larger, more numerous and generating more and more powerful foes. Eventually they can overrun a hex and begin spreading to nearby hexes as well. If the people living in a hex don't regularly sweep their lands and the nearby region for encampments and deal with the ones they find, the residents may find themselves facing a full-blown horde with the potential to destroy even player created structures!
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Goblin Squad Member
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If an Orc encampment is left unchecked you should see an increase in it's size. Maybe not a "city" per se, but a dangerously large settlement.
On its own, no. I specifically attached the development of a city to the players going out of their way to quest for and advance the Orc population.
Reporting this. It's from an interview that Mark Kalmes did a while back..
Mark: Well, yeah, again, we really want your actions to be persistent, and I think that’s the big advantage of this type of game, is that we’re trying to make sure you make a real impact on the world at all times. So if you kill that orc chieftain, the orc chieftain is dead, and you’re going to drive the orcs out of that area.
We’re still evolving the system, but we do want a system by which all the monster factions have their own agenda. The orc horde is trying to do something, they’re trying to invade the settlement or invade the territory, and you either enlist that captain or you beat him back or you do whatever, but you actually progress essentially a story that relates to those orcs in your hex.
I hope they are able to add a lot of options instead of just killing NPC mobs. This sounds really really cool. We will have to see what they come up with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about Undead 'ecology'? There are plenty of Undead that create more undead by killing their victims. It would be pretty cool Undead came out of dungeons at night and attacked the humanoid population of the area, both player and NPC. Humanoids killed by them rise as undead return to the safety of the dungeon and in turn head out to hunt the countryside at night expanding the undead horde.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about Undead 'ecology'? There are plenty of Undead that create more undead by killing their victims. It would be pretty cool Undead came out of dungeons at night and attacked the humanoid population of the area, both player and NPC. Humanoids killed by them rise as undead return to the safety of the dungeon and in turn head out to hunt the countryside at night expanding the undead horde.
Undead turning players into undead?
The players would still have control of themselves, right? Otherwise you are going to run into a similar problem as the 'criminal jailed' issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Back to the Ecology thing I would like to see the wolves preying on the rabbits if my survival and stealth skills are high enough. Then there is the owlbear quest, and maybe you actually stumble on it hunting a wolf. Heck maybe a farmer can actually see a wyvern swoop in and grab his livestock starting the next town quest. Of course if a player was not within visual range it should all be non-rendered. I know in EQ the Sarlaks and the lizard folk would actually fight with no player intervention.
CEO
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As a biology major, things like the whole idea of a wildlife ecology excite the heck out of me! I gurantee that I will be actively campaigning for things like this in the game. Of course, when it gets implemented will depend on prioritizing tasks, but, as many posters have mentioned in this thread, a real flora and fauna ecology would really help with the immersion into the game. And being a sandbox, I think that is really important.
Thanks for a great thread!
-Lisa
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a biology major, things like the whole idea of a wildlife ecology excite the heck out of me! I gurantee that I will be actively campaigning for things like this in the game. Of course, when it gets implemented will depend on prioritizing tasks, but, as many posters have mentioned in this thread, a real flora and fauna ecology would really help with the immersion into the game. And being a sandbox, I think that is really important.
Thanks for a great thread!
-Lisa
Especially important for players between adventures and solo, yet not really feeling like crafting.
I should expect the eco-mechanic should be thought elementary (as is an element other things are made from). Part of the environmental basis as integral as, but more important than, grass on a slope.
There have been entire games built simulating an ecology and these ideas are really much simpler. Not as threateneningly fractal. The AI should not be challenging, only the integration, the getting it to all work together without running too far amok.
To have the timid sense and avoid players and predetors, and the aggressive to seek out the timid... I should think it would be worked on early if only to get the AI established that will form the foundation of more advanced AI routines that will be needed later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Monster ecology would probably be a good idea too.
Orc camps need food sources to grow, so they kill animals and steal food. If they start running out of food they start venturing into new hexes to collect food. An Orc population could be ecologically devastating as the ravage the countryside for anything edible. The more food an area can provide the larger the Orc population it can sustain. Which eventually translates into the larger the Orc horde becomes as it rolls across the countryside devestating everything in its path die to the lack of food to sustain itself. In such a way an Orc horde can naturally grow and propagate naturally.
Lower priority than that would be to see orcs out actually hunting and hauling animal carcasses back to camp. In this way you can visually identify the Orcs as the source of the ecological devastation.
On a related note, I think even animal overpopulation should be a serious issue. I know it is generally thought that more animals is good, but that isn't really the case. Wolf overpopulation obviously is problematic to the prey population, but even deer overpopulation is bad in that it pretty much kills off any plant that isn't a mature tree or totally inedible to deer. This in turn leads to a less healthy deer population. Sickness disease and malnutrition become common serious problems in the deer population.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So let's take a stab at the basics of what I'll call the 'SFC/Goblin ecology module', where 'SFC' means small furry creature. Think 'Bunny'. Or squirrel, but squirrels would have more complex behaviors since they climb trees. Too many squirrels should spawn Lynxes rather than foxes. Though foxes do climb trees.
The SFC would have a base behavior (NibbleGrass)&(DetectPredator). Then you would have a time-based(NormalMovementRoutine(randomDirection)).
NormalMovementRoutine would include a distance limiter before another NibbleGrass event is triggered. NibbleGrass has a duration before a decision event is triggered between another NibbleGrass or NormalMovement event is triggered.
IF (DetectPredator(radius)=True) then (FleeMovementRoutine)
Test the result using MediumPredator(Fox) within SFC's detection range.
Over time(T) the SFC will reproduce. If an area has no SFCs it will spawn one. If Medium Predator does not acquire a HunterPounce event it will migrate.
When the population count of SFCs passes a threshold value or any multiple of that threshold value a random MediumPredator(Fox) is spawned, where MediumPredator(Fox) has a behavior set like an SFC except (NibbleGrass) is replaced by (HuntingPattern), (DetectPredator) is replaced by (DetectPrey) and (FleeMovementRoutine) is replaced by (HunterPounce).
One key objective in a 'pure' landscape will be to ensure the number of SFC's is balanced by the consumption rate of medium predators.
Once the values that decide population balances are perfected for a stable population of each type, then introduce Humanoids (think goblin) that would hunt foxes and bunnies. It is unlikely but possible that the goblin will harvest foxes and bunnies in an ecologically balanced ratio.
What would need to happen, then, is if there are too few foxes the SFC population will explode, in turn generating more foxes.
Then if we key the reproduction of goblins to population explosions of their foodsource the goblins should overpopulate.
We could spice it up that if the number of goblins reaches a threshold then a GoblinChieftain will pop. The GoblinChieftain would have a MassMigration routine triggered when his Goblin Population reaches critical mass and the number of foxes and bunnies falls to a second threshold from overconsumption.
So now you have a goblin horde on the march, and they won't stop until they either find a hex in an SFC/MedPred overpopulation state (where the goblin population would increase even more until an SFC/MedPred population reaches the low levels, triggering renewed migration) or they invest in siege of a Player settlement.
Well, that's pretty rough and I didn't proofred so there are probably flaws and gaps, but it should give a fair approximation of how it might work and why it would be important to prioritize appropriately, according the the design team's values.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Other than the part where SFC's are spawned from the Aether in Hexes without SFC's I like it. SFC's migrating to hex's with low SFC populations would be much more natural, and even allow a person to observe the slow return of natural balance to an ecologically devastated region.
Would be cool for Druids and Ranger to create contracts for people to capture animals and release them into a specific hex to jump start the local ecology.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I haven't really been excited about this because in my mind it was the same old thing EQ did with goblins attacking some other NPC monsters at the Lake of Ill Omen.
But something in a recent post finally clicked for me, and I imagined seeing berry bushes that player characters could harvest, but which also were a favorite food of a local deer population. That excited me :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about discoveries? Perhaps players could find rare new species through exploring and the finders get to name them by registering with the Pathfinder Society?
It has possibilities... there was some game I played.. I forget which... maybe it was Vanguard... that had discoveries and recorded who was the first to discover each creature and item.
I just hope that i doon't have a wolf, a bear, a deer and a wild boar attack me all at the same time like most MMO's. It always seemed strange to see a deer and a wolf attacking at the same time on games like LOTRO (Lord Of The Rings Online).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just hope that i doon't have a wolf, a bear, a deer and a wild boar attack me all at the same time like most MMO's. It always seemed strange to see a deer and a wolf attacking at the same time on games like LOTRO (Lord Of The Rings Online).
Heh... then you shold be careful to not hit the deer.
Yes, there are a couple of areas where the deer might attack you unprovoked, notably in Evendim, but in most areas the wolf would have been just attacking the deer. If you hit the wolf you may also hit the deer, so the deer fights back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SFC - white-nose disease (bats), plague and hantavirus (rats); rabbits in Australia; tumors in Tasmanian devils
causing disease in a food source for goblins; herbal lures to draw magical beasts into areas to create panic and as a distraction for attacking a hideout; poisoning grain (tribbles)
rambling, must sleep
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Jameow has put up his idea for putting a virtual ecology in place on the Ideascale crowdforging site: If you were for the idea then, be sure an upvote it now.
I liked the idea so much that in my memory I came to think of it as my own: apologies to the originator! Well done, Jameow!
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Ryan is pretty skeptical of virtual ecology: see post here.
The idea of "turn the monsters loose and let the AI sort it out" has been a part of the MMO world since Ultima Online. And it's been tried several times, and every time it fails.
...
I'll remain a skeptic until I see it work at scale, under real world conditions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan is pretty skeptical of virtual ecology: see post here.
The idea of "turn the monsters loose and let the AI sort it out" has been a part of the MMO world since Ultima Online. And it's been tried several times, and every time it fails.
...
I'll remain a skeptic until I see it work at scale, under real world conditions.
Then by the same token, how can escalations work? If everything is wiped out to the point where ecology can't function, then how can escalations have the time to develop?
It's all about setting rules and the right limits in place, enough dynamics to give actions consequences, enough restraints that the entire system doesn't collapse under over exploitation. This isn't the real world after all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Escalations are supposed to be defeated. They are created from nothing and return to nothing after enough whack-a-mole activity by players.
If the game's ecology is supposed to respond to player actions, it needs to be either very very resilient against player actions (to the point where your actions taken to "preserve balance" or whatever are practically unnoticable) or risk totally collapsing several times over.